63 réponses à ce sujet

[daisekihan]

[quote]Flashlegend wrote...

[quote]daisekihan wrote...

[quote]Liber320 wrote...

[/quote]

Actually the fact that space-casper exists kinda invalidates all of ME1's plot. Why didn't he simply didn't he take control?

[/quote]

I think the civilization that created the Reapers also created Crucible and Catalyst, or the basic plans for it. Perhaps they figured any race capable of using it would be able to break the cycle. Or maybe it was meant to be used in case of conflict between the Reapers themselves.

[eddieoctane]

Flashlegend wrote...

MB957 wrote...

what does "retcon" mean? Im not familiar with that term

It's changing established canon. For example, in ME2(My memory is foggy) I believe samara says that there are only 3 ardat yakshi in existence.(her 3 daughters) But in ME3 we visit a temple that was full of them? And the banshees, which we fight many times in ME3, are ardat yakshi repurposed by the reapers(the codex specifically says banshees are ardat yakshi transformed). So yea, change in established canon. Generally, from a storytelling perspective, they're considered something you should try to avoid as much as possible.

The codex says individuals with recessive ardat yakshi genes are also targeted for assimilation. If there were no people with the recessive gene, there would have been 1 banshee in existance: the daughter who didn't blow herself up at the monestary.

Remember, Samara's daughters were all ardat yakshi. she had to carry the trait, but could not have been symptomatic. Ardat yakshi are sterile. Carriers of the trait could have been scattered across the galaxy, however, and snagged by random Reapers as the crept towards the center of Asari space.

[Greed1914]

As far as the Protheans go, Javik said that most were not aware of what the others were doing. For the Protheans on Eden Prime, Ilos was just a rumor, so it's possible that others were working on the Crucible on their own.

[daisekihan]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Vigil specifically says "Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others"

[daisekihan]

Oops, double post, sorry.

Modifié par daisekihan, 17 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[Firas81]

 Actually... now that I think about it... Maybe the MassRelays being cut off was due to the keepers and the citadel signal.

Yet why wouldn't they eventually activate them? Reprogrammed keepers?

[daisekihan]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Ilos was issolated and forgotten just as soon as the Reapers arrived last time, yes? Vigil wouldn't have the full story as to what happened.

Crucible construction/ further resistance could have been coordinated through QEC communicators just like in this game.

That seems like a retcon to me.

[GnusmasTHX]

daisekihan wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Vigil specifically says "Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others"

It's probably just poorly worded, but a star system is not the same as a solar, or planetary system.

A star system, if it's said in ME, would probably refer to what is commonly called in game as a "cluster".

And no, Ilos being isolated and "lost" isn't a Retcon. Vigil says it was deliberate and the only reason they survived. And the beacons would've afforded the fractured empire a method of communication probably far more effective than QEC.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 17 mars 2012 - 11:10 .

[daisekihan]

Firas81 wrote...

 Actually... now that I think about it... Maybe the MassRelays being cut off was due to the keepers and the citadel signal.

Yet why wouldn't they eventually activate them? Reprogrammed keepers?

Yes. The way it works is, the Reapers would send out a signal to tell the Keepers to open the Citadel relay. The Protheans from Ilos prevented made it so they would no longer respond to the Reaper signal as their dying act.

[Harbinger of Hope]

Flashlegend wrote...

It's changing established canon. For example, in ME2(My memory is foggy) I believe samara says that there are only 3 ardat yakshi in existence.(her 3 daughters) But in ME3 we visit a temple that was full of them? And the banshees, which we fight many times in ME3, are ardat yakshi repurposed by the reapers(the codex specifically says banshees are ardat yakshi transformed). So yea, change in established canon. Generally, from a storytelling perspective, they're considered something you should try to avoid as much as possible.

I never got why they needed Ardat-Yakshi for Banshees.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Hurhm.

That is a plot hole.

This one can be handwaved much, much easier though by something or other.

[daisekihan]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Vigil specifically says "Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others"

It's probably just poorly worded, but a star system is not the same as a solar, or planetary system.

A star system, if it's said in ME, would probably refer to what is commonly called in game as a "cluster".

Sorry, but I think the intention was pretty clear. If they meant cluster, they would have said cluster. At least, what I got from what Vigil said was that the individual stars and their close neighbors reachable without a relay were all cut off from each other. And I think that's how most people interpreted it at the time.

[vrumpt]

So, for some reason the Reapers never saw reason in closing off the Mass Relays from one another.

Perhaps the reason is because this cycle was already delayed numerous times from being extinct, it would be better to leave the relays open so the Reapers could quickly travel between systems and deal with the largest threats first. Time is a factor and this cycle already had plenty of it to prepare for the Reapers.

[devSin]

Liber320 wrote...

What I don't get is why they didn't take control of the mass relays this time around. Instead they decided to derp around systems until the Normandy happened by

It seems to be a strategic no-brainer, especially given their goals.

Take the Citadel, control the relay network, and isolate your enemies. Then pick them off.

Instead they just jumped randomly around the galaxy and started walking around on useless planets to shoot random people.

[Helen0rz]

KobaTali wrote...

I don't really understand how they didn't just go take over the damn Citadel first. I mean, they seemed to have zero problem going and confiscating it after you hit TIM's Station. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just get it over and done with in the first strike instead of screwing about with all the different systems and letting us keep using the Relays?

If Citadel was the main, centralized part of the Protheian Empire, which it was, it makes it harder to come up with a centralized resisstance. If you can't get the word out, the clusters will have no warnings for a Reaper attack. Remember, the Protheians dominated ALL other races, so when the Protheians fell, I hightly doubt that other species had the military power to help, knows how to help, or even cared enough to help (after all, some might not even be aware of the attack since they're still primitive). So by the time the Citadel was taken over, contacts were cut off, there simple wasn't enough resources and time to come up with a countermeasure like Sherpard could. The only reason why Shepard's tactics worked because everyone came to together and help. 

but of course, this is all speculation...something we're used to do by now...

[devSin]

Helen0rz wrote...

The only reason why Shepard's tactics worked because everyone came to together and help.

Well, that and the fact that the relay network remained open.

If the Reapers controlled the network, Shepard would not have been going anywhere or rallying anyone.

[daisekihan]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Vigil specifically says "Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others"

It's probably just poorly worded, but a star system is not the same as a solar, or planetary system.

A star system, if it's said in ME, would probably refer to what is commonly called in game as a "cluster".

And no, Ilos being isolated and "lost" isn't a Retcon. Vigil says it was deliberate and the only reason they survived. And the beacons would've afforded the fractured empire a method of communication probably far more effective than QEC.

Vigil says virtually all the beacons were destroyed. 

I mean that Vigil never says anything like "My information may be faulty or incomplete" or gives any indication he doesn't know what's up. He lays out how the invasion went down, yet in ME3 it seems it went down an entirely different way. That seems like a retcon.

[Helen0rz]

devSin wrote...

Helen0rz wrote...

The only reason why Shepard's tactics worked because everyone came to together and help.

Well, that and the fact that the relay network remained open.

If the Reapers controlled the network, Shepard would not have been going anywhere or rallying anyone.

This is VERY true. You would think once TIM tipped them off about Shepard coming, they would've deactivated the relays immediatebly once they took over the Citadel.

[Kinoru]

Harbinger of Hope wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

It's changing established canon. For example, in ME2(My memory is foggy) I believe samara says that there are only 3 ardat yakshi in existence.(her 3 daughters) But in ME3 we visit a temple that was full of them? And the banshees, which we fight many times in ME3, are ardat yakshi repurposed by the reapers(the codex specifically says banshees are ardat yakshi transformed). So yea, change in established canon. Generally, from a storytelling perspective, they're considered something you should try to avoid as much as possible.

I never got why they needed Ardat-Yakshi for Banshees.

Ardat-Yakshi by nature have stronger biotic capabilities because of their ancestry. Also some of them have shown the mind control capabilities, which would make them a more valuable asset in the Reaper's eyes. Review Samara's stories on her chase of Morinth.

Edit: Back to the OT. If I can remember correctly there was a mention somewhere that the Beacons were also corrupted and was used against them during their war. 

Modifié par Kinoru, 17 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[Icesong]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Javik on Eden Prime in the Exodus Cluster heard stories about the Crucible. Also on Eden Prime was data on the Crucible's main power source.

Mars in the Local Cluster contained data on the Crucible.

The VI on Thessia in the Athena Nebula also knew about the Crucible.

And that's just what I can remember. A lot of project coordinating in greatly separated spaces for being cut off.

[GnusmasTHX]

daisekihan wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Vigil specifically says "Each star system was isolated, cut off from the others"

It's probably just poorly worded, but a star system is not the same as a solar, or planetary system.

A star system, if it's said in ME, would probably refer to what is commonly called in game as a "cluster".

And no, Ilos being isolated and "lost" isn't a Retcon. Vigil says it was deliberate and the only reason they survived. And the beacons would've afforded the fractured empire a method of communication probably far more effective than QEC.

Vigil says virtually all the beacons were destroyed. 

I mean that Vigil never says anything like "My information may be faulty or incomplete" or gives any indication he doesn't know what's up. He lays out how the invasion went down, yet in ME3 it seems it went down an entirely different way. That seems like a retcon.

That doesn't really mean anything. You could say that the opening of the war virtually destroyed the Prothean Empire, and yet we know what we know. We also know several beacons survived just by encountering them throughout the games.

And also, why would Vigil say that? He's telling you what he knows. 

[GnusmasTHX]

Icesong wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The systems were cut off from other clusters. not from other systems IN that same cluster (of which there are hundreds).

As I said the Prothean Empire fought for 300 years in spite of being effectively crippled in a galactic sense before being defeated.

Javik on Eden Prime in the Exodus Cluster heard stories about the Crucible. Also on Eden Prime was data on the Crucible's main power source.

Mars in the Local Cluster contained data on the Crucible.

The VI on Thessia in the Athena Nebula also knew about the Crucible.

And that's just what I can remember. A lot of project coordinating in greatly separated spaces for being cut off.

Well you realize all of this is just information. Nothing mentions that they had construction going on at all these sites. 

Liara herself puts the Crucible plans in a bunch of bottles and throws them into the cosmic ocean.

[knightoftaurus]

Flashlegend wrote...

MB957 wrote...

what does "retcon" mean? Im not familiar with that term

It's changing established canon. For example, in ME2(My memory is foggy) I believe samara says that there are only 3 ardat yakshi in existence.(her 3 daughters) But in ME3 we visit a temple that was full of them? And the banshees, which we fight many times in ME3, are ardat yakshi repurposed by the reapers(the codex specifically says banshees are ardat yakshi transformed). So yea, change in established canon. Generally, from a storytelling perspective, they're considered something you should try to avoid as much as possible.

To be fair, the Codex states that the Reapers targetted asari who were predominantly ardat-yakshi (whether passively or aggressively so), as well as those who had the latent genes.

That being said, yeah that was a very poor retcon. You can't even justify it properly because there's no reason why Samara would lie to you at that point.

[RLesueur]

KobaTali wrote...

I don't really understand how they didn't just go take over the damn Citadel first. I mean, they seemed to have zero problem going and confiscating it after you hit TIM's Station. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just get it over and done with in the first strike instead of screwing about with all the different systems and letting us keep using the Relays?

That's another bit that made absolutely no sense to me.

The Reapers strategy has always been to take the citadel and then switch off the Mass Relays and isolate the organics. Why didn't they do that this time when they could obviously take it whenever they wanted?

[ediskrad327]

i don't see the retcon