300 réponses à ce sujet

[Vhalkyrie]

Neutral Ground wrote...
We would need MUCH more than that. The entire tenor of the narrative would need a drastic overhaul.

Quick, what is the FIRST thing you hear in FFX?

"Listen to my story. This may be our last chance."

Immediately, while you do feel a sense of union (this may be "our" last chance, which may be the game's party of characters, or "our" meaning "Tidus and the player"; I believe this is intentionally unclear), it's also illustrated that this will be a story about a specific, clearly outlined character (my story), and that it will also probably be, in some way, pretty sad (last chance). This is built upon throughout the entire game.

However, what is the FIRST thing you hear/do in Mass Effect?

"Profile reconstruction failed. Please reconstruct your profile" (Or you might just get the option to approve everything and go with standard Shep). In either scenario, you are IMMEDIATELY thrust into the storytelling process where YOU have an effect on the story. The first thing you hear after that is Anderson talking about the story you just made! The first moments of Mass Effect emphasize player choice. Then, the rest of the series builds on that.

That is why Mass Effect can't get away with FFX's ending.

Yes, a FFX style ending (which is what I think they were shooting for) is not true to the spirit of the ME games.  Someone did a really good writeup on why Shepard is an Epic hero, not a Tragic hero.  Switching it around at the last moment is jarring to the audience.  There is no basis for it.  Throughout all the ME games, we were told Shepard must defeat the Reapers.  Shepard was so important, s/he was resurrected.  Turning an epic hero into a tragic hero without a precedence is character assassination.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 18 mars 2012 - 04:56 .

[Wattoes]

Inception and Shutter Island each show well done ambiguous and bleak endings respectively.

COD 4 is an example of an ending that was both conclusive and satisfying, yet left a bit open ended (what happened to price?) and sad (watching your homies get shot in the face). In otherwords the sort of ending ME3 was shooting for.

[Cuddlezarro]

I liked Fallout and Planescape torments endings both where bittersweet/nonhappy endings

[savionen]

I play a lot of horror games, and almost all of them end bleak/negatively. But, it's a proper setup. Trying to survive and all that.

Mass Effect is a space-opera. Mass Effect 2 was almost uplifting and a tad campy with all of the humor. Breaking out a "we're all dead" ending in the last 10 minutes, out of an arguably 90 hour trilogy is bleh.

[syllogi]

As others have said, the series finale of the tv series Angel. Logen Ninefingers' exit in the last novel of the First Law Trilogy. Most Coen Bros. movies, like True Grit, No Country for Old Men, Fargo, and Blood Simple. My favorite documentary of all time, Sick. Dragon Age: Origins (the Dark Ritual's result is definitely still ambiguous, and no matter what, the life of a Grey Warden isn't going to end happily).

[WQFNHJNHNFNFNFBFNFN]

1984. Probably the most brutally depressing ending I've ever read, but there was no other way that the book could have possibly ended.

[Paparob]

Red Dead Redemption.

[nitefyre410]

Dominus Solanum wrote...

*snip*

See, this is why I was hesitating with any of the -2s. For the most part the FFs were games that did not need additional story. For better or worse, they wrapped themselves up. Hell, if anything, after getting done with a behemoth like VIII I'm effing relieved the game is over. Even in that one you got the most rudimentary of choices to make (diologue boxes onry!) and it was still satisfying at the end even if it was a little bizzare. 

FFX's ending was a thing of beauty. Though TBH, Tidus was annoying as hell to play as through most of that game. Dude was like a cross between Squall and Zell only with more crying. The only lead man I hated more than him was Zidane. Nevermind. Let's pretend it went VIII to X with nothing in between. 

Though all this is reminding me of a hidden effect of ME. Other games kinda tend to lose some of their luster when presented with the kind of game altering choices you can make in the first 99% of ME. Few games give you the kind of freedom ME does and with that in mind I think that was probably most of my issue with the endings. I wasn't expecting the kind of ending we got because it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the rest of the way the game went. I scoured every planet and every bit of the Citadel to make sure I didn't miss anything because, as I recall, I read that rushing through the game would get you a crappy ending and the only way to get the best one was to explore every sidequest.

Funny how that turned out.  

 

What is this  FF IX you speak of... this game does not exist to me...  yes that is how much I hate Fina Fantasy 9.....  I can tell you this that  XIII and XIII-2 are better than IX.   

Oh and how can be talking about Bleak endings and not talk about Final  Fantasy Tactics.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 18 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[jbauck]

teknoarcanist wrote...

So we can conclude that a good ambiguous ending should ratify the characters and setting, and should probably do its best to satisfy in terms of tonally-proper spectacle.

And we can conclude that a bleak ending should fulfill a promise of inevitability that's been layered into the narrative throughout. Nonetheless, the characters should achieve resolution (whether happy or sad) and the ending should drive home the theme of the narrative. The ending is only bleak for the same reason THE ENTIRE NARRATIVE has been bleak. Since we've already accepted that reason, we don't resist the negativity. It seems unavoidable. Even necessary.

So why does Mass Effect 3 "fail" on these counts, in your opinion?

This topic pretty much rocks ... just sayin'.  My examples of dark/ambiguous endings that worked for me are Hamlet and the Heroic Sacrifice ending of DA:O.

I think everyone's spot-on that theme is really imporant as to whether or not the dark/ambiguous ending is the "right" ending.  Take Hamlet, for example, in which he spends the entire play accomplishing nothing, wondering why he's even there to begin with and what does it all matter/mean anyway?  And one of the answers is, if you don't take action, you might as well not be there, and it doesn't matter or mean anything, because you didn't >make< it matter or mean anything.  So - everyone dies .... there really is no other way for Hamlet to end.  Hamlet can't be anything else.

The Heroic Sacrifice ending of DA:O in which the Warden dies is awesome.  I ducked it my first playthrough because I sent Loghain off to die ... because why not?  I hated him anyway.  But ... the possibility of that darker ending was so good, I did a playthrough specifically to get it.  The difference, though, is that because it's avoidable, choosing that ending really feels like a heroic sacrifice. 

ME3 falls down a bit because I, as the player, didn't get to make a heroic sacrifice ... the narrative that was handed to me demanded Shepard be sacrificed, rather than putting me in a situation where I had to sacrifice Shepard, if that makes sense.

[Chromie]

 I feel Witcher 2 deserves a mention.

In Witcher 2 you play a man named Geralt. He was supposed to protect the King of Temeria. A group of assassins who have been trying to kill King Foltest of Temeria since Witcher 1 finally succeed and the blame lies with Geralt. Eventually you find out there is something much much bigger happening. You find out a secret lodge of sorceresses have been scheming and have used the assassins to kill two Kings from the Northern kingdoms. All the while the assassins are actually working for another, the Emperor of Nilgaard, who is seeking to destablize the Northern Kingdoms for an invasion. There is this sense of desperation and despair at the end of Witcher 2 and really it's on of the best rpgs I've played in a long time. 

Another that people have obviously mentioned is Planescape: Torment.

[Neutral Ground]

Dominus Solanum wrote...

Neutral Ground wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Neutral Ground wrote...

Messed up part is I really DO like most ambiguous/bleak endings. Final Fantasy X, for instance, is one of my favorite games, and its ending ACTUALLY INCLUDES (spoilers, by the way) the main character vanishing, not being able to interact with his love interest, the DISSOLUTION OF THE MAGICAL FORCES THAT WERE PART OF WHAT MADE THE WORLD SO ATTRACTIVE, and the loss and simultaneous sense of discovery experienced by characters who had finally broken a seemingly endless cycle.

The difference is it wasn't shoehorned in at the last minute, and it was relevant to the extant narrative. Which, it turns out, makes all the difference.

FFX also warned us that was going to happen.  I expected there would be a scenario where Shepard might have to martyr him/herself.  I didn't expect this sacrifice to be cathartic in explaining what happened after.  In FFX, we know after Tidus defeats Sin, Spira is free, and we see Yuna on the docks.  In ME3, we see the relays blow up and wonder if every freaking species in the Milky Way is stranded in our solar system.

Interesting. FFX story was also about a cycle of destruction and rebirth.

That's precisely my point. The particulars of the ending--the god-child, the relays, whatever--aren't the failing, but the EXECUTION is. That is why people who defend the ending are, to my mind, duping themselves at least a little. The ending is sloppy in terms of its writing, and does a terrible job of explaining itself.

Whereas, like you said, in FFX the ending was at least strongly hinted at, and by the time it actually happened, instead of provoking rage, I think most of the audience that was enjoying the game was awestruck and genuinely touched by the incredibly moving power of the tragedy of it. It was beautifully executed, absolutely touching, and those last words that Yuna says, "Never forget them"?  Man, that really capped the game BRILLIANTLY. Part of my enduring love for FFX is that its ending delivered so well on what the game had promised!

For the record, I choose to treat Final Fantasy X-2 as bad fanfiction. I just ignore it.

See, this is why I was hesitating with any of the -2s. For the most part the FFs were games that did not need additional story. For better or worse, they wrapped themselves up. Hell, if anything, after getting done with a behemoth like VIII I'm effing relieved the game is over. Even in that one you got the most rudimentary of choices to make (diologue boxes onry!) and it was still satisfying at the end even if it was a little bizzare. 

FFX's ending was a thing of beauty. Though TBH, Tidus was annoying as hell to play as through most of that game. Dude was like a cross between Squall and Zell only with more crying. The only lead man I hated more than him was Zidane. Nevermind. Let's pretend it went VIII to X with nothing in between. 

Though all this is reminding me of a hidden effect of ME. Other games kinda tend to lose some of their luster when presented with the kind of game altering choices you can make in the first 99% of ME. Few games give you the kind of freedom ME does and with that in mind I think that was probably most of my issue with the endings. I wasn't expecting the kind of ending we got because it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the rest of the way the game went. I scoured every planet and every bit of the Citadel to make sure I didn't miss anything because, as I recall, I read that rushing through the game would get you a crappy ending and the only way to get the best one was to explore every sidequest.

Funny how that turned out.  

Not to make this a thread about FFX, but I do think that reading Tidus as simply "annoying" is a little short-sighted. Perhaps SE didn't do enough to drive home that Tidus LITERALLY has everything he knows stripped away from him within two minutes of the game's opening. Moreover, throughout the game Tidus undergoes phenomenal personal growth: he becomes a MUCH different (and, to my mind, more likeable) character by the end of the game.

But anyway, yes. You can sacrifice a Tidus to a vague sense that the world needs to change and that stories do not last. You can't do the same to a character like Shepard.

[ValendianKnight]

2001: Space Odyssey

[GracefulChicken]

Watchmen's bleakness was great, Shutter Island also now that Wattoes made me remember it. The Mote In God's Eye (scarily similar story of cycles of an alien civilization much like the Krogans destroy-rebuild-destroy culture, actually), both Dead Space games, Requiem for a Dream, Pi, Martyrs...

You name a bleak ending, and chances are I actually like it... which makes this whole ending all the more perplexing for me, because it took a bunch of things I loved and rolled it into one unworkable mess. How could a Pizza-wrapped Bacon-covered deep fried twinkie be bad?

[KelaSaar]

Inception, Black Swan, Donnie Darko, and Life on Mars

[Darth Howie]

If we're talking games, many of Silent Hill 2's ending worked very, very well and were damned bleak. Of course, so was the whole game.

[merylisk]

End of Evangelion is one of my all-time favorite things ever.

[Ticonderoga117]

The end of the Horus Heresy in Warhammer 40K.

Humanity's ascendency has been dashed and progress has been pretty much killed in technology and social aspects.

[Vhalkyrie]

Neutral Ground wrote...

But anyway, yes. You can sacrifice
a Tidus to a vague sense that the world needs to change and that
stories do not last. You can't do the same to a character like Shepard.

A character like Shepard can make the ultimate sacrifice. However, the sacrifice would have to feel like it had meaning. The ending of ME3 was cathartic. I'd be ok with sacrificing Shepard, except all the mass relays blow up anyway, leaving me to wonder about the fate of the galaxy. Assuming the ending was cannon, I brokered peace between the Geth/Quarians only to annihilate the Geth along with the Reapers, so that was meaningless. All the mass relays blew up, so now all the races of the galaxy are stranded in Sol. That's certainly going to lead to conflict.

Basically, the ending of ME3 did not leave me feeling like Shepard's sacrifice left the galaxy in a better state than if I had done nothing at all. Cathartic.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 18 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[Darth Howie]

Other films:

Chinatown
The Conversation
Dr. Stangelove (Satire, but still bleak)
Sweeney Todd
Unforgiven
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Pan's Labyrinth

They all work. The key difference is that the bleakness is in tone with the works as a whole. Not one of those pulls a bait and switch bleak/ambiguous ending on you. Mass Effect is an "Earn Your Happy Ending" type feel. Especially considering you are SUPPOSED TO HAVE EARNED A HAPPY ENDING if you worked hard enough. Or at least a conclusive one. ARGH!

[Whybother]

Darth Howie wrote...

Whybother wrote...

Darth Howie wrote...

Brazil. I love the ending of Brazil. Bleak as hell, but somehow beautiful.

Director's cut, right?  Yes, forgot about that one.

Actually, Terry Gilliam won his battle with the studio and got the cut he wanted.  The studio mandated "Love Conquers All" cut was kept in the vault for years until the Criterion Collection version of Brazil was released.  The bleak ending of Brazil was what made it to the theaters.  

But of course we just want happy endings

[pknecron]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution... because they actually fit very well within the theme and story of the game... wink wink nudge nudge.

[Whybother]

You know, if any of these bleak movies (with bleak endings) had ended up a sudden happy note, the fans would have complained just as much.

[teknoarcanist]

Taking all this into account, it makes me wonder if the basic structure of the final "choice" shouldn't have been --

Kill Shepard -- but all of his friends live, and the galaxy is saved
Kill Shepard's Friends -- but Shepard lives, and the galaxy is saved
Shepard and Friends Live -- but the galaxy is in a state of disrepair

Screw These Choices -- either completely damns everything or completely saves everything, depending on your war assets.  Maybe even AT RANDOM, with your War Assets affecting the likelihood that "this will save everyone".  Could you, as a player, pick this option if there was a 1% chance it would kill everything and everyone?

And then you'd get the Big Damn Hero -ness of CHOOSING to sacrifice Shepard and saving the goddamn day. And it's still just as tragic, and gels with the themes of "war has consequences", "ruthless calculus", etc.

Modifié par teknoarcanist, 18 mars 2012 - 05:18 .

[TJX2045]

Inception.  Two possibilities, closure of your own with each.  As opposed to hundreds of possibilities, with a roulette wheel of closure on one or two things.

EDIT: OMG and yes, how could I forget BLACK SWAN.  Bittersweet in the way that it's sad but leaves you with HOPE.  Which I felt none of after thinking more in depth for the ME3 ending.

pknecron wrote...

Deus Ex: Human Revolution... because they actually fit very well within the theme and story of the game... wink wink nudge nudge.

 

As much as I disliked the entire endings being FMV, they were done well and I didn't want to throw the game box across the room.  Not that I did that with ME3, but my mouth was wide open for about 1 minute while I tried to process why the credits were rolling and my brain was stating "Does not compute!"

Modifié par TJX2045, 18 mars 2012 - 05:17 .