263 réponses à ce sujet

[Yalision]

After all this effort, and given all the tweets and what not, I personally believe Bioware is hard at work tweaking the endings. We shall see.

[jb1983]

Alamar2078 wrote...

The bad thing is while the game is still new I doubt the "bean counters" will let anybody else say something meaningful ... at least until they get their initial wave of profits in the bank.

Even then if BW did something like intentionally not ship the "real" ending I'm sure their lawyers wouldn't let them say that on the off chance that there would be liability concerns.

If they did that then they'd be guilty of false advertising and/or bait and switch. Not sure how that would work with them being in Canada, and I'm only familiar with US laws. 

Thus, they'd NEVER admit to doing that. 


And they don't need to. A simple, "Ending DLC is on its way. Date and details TBA" would end all of this for Bioware in a snap. Then the topics would move to, "What do you think they'll do?" It would take away almost all of the negative publicity and animosity. 

[Lugaidster]

Deemz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works. 

Well said

Well said? We're trying to separate ourselves from stupid entitled brats by creating a notion that we are civil and mature and you say that's well said? I'm sorry, but if that's the case then there are some serious issues with this movement. Name calling and replying in a condescending is not a good way to advance the cause. 

This is why half of the people in Bioware is quiet, most of them would just snap out at fanboy outrage. PR exists to reduce damage to a minimum, we don't have that luxury. Name-calling and a condescending tone to those with different opinions is damaging to the cause.

I don't support nor agree, in a respectful way, with any statement jb1983 said.

[Yalision]

It took about 2 or so months for us to get our first piece of original DLC from Bioware for Mass Effect 2. It will take at least that long for what we are looking for. Holding the line has to be for the long haul and I'll be there for the whole of it. But given all I've seen I have 100% faith that the message has been sent and it is being worked on.

[FOX216BC]

"Sometimes people forget that BioWare are... people."
And people make mistakes.
Putting your mistake right shows what kind of person you are.
At least this is the way i was raised.
I don't hate bioware, i just hate the ending.

[RagingCeltik]

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

RagingCeltik wrote...

Retake Mass Effect: Mission Statement and Goals
http://social.biowar...ndex/10160364/1

We acknowledge the great talent and creativity of Bioware and its staff. That is first and foremost. We are here because their passion became our passion.

Exactly and that is part only is what I stand for, but the mission shoots itself in the foot, cause if you boycott to the point of starving them of profits, then the meat of your mission statement (to change the end of the game) dies as well along with any credibility to the statement of having passion for this game. 

Starv BioWare, you starv Mass Effect. The very game we love so much. 

^^ This.   While I stand by my previous statement, recognize we have three ways to "wage war".   Our words, our wallets, and boycotting the game (for a period anyway).   These are our tools.  Use 'em.

[DaosX]

Deltaboy - Just out of curiosity but is your name Chris Hoban by any chance?

(reference to Bioware employee giving biased reviews on DA2)

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I think the message is loud and clear for BioWare now. We spoke our peace, made our case and continue to do so.

Bioware is a corporation. Corporations are ruthless profit-maximization engines. This isnt really a bad thing, but it does mean that we can't treat Bioware the company as we'd treat any individual Bioware employee. The only way we'll get what we want is to convince them that there's money in it. Which is what a boycott does, by establishing that the consumer wants a new ending and will not give more money until that ending is delivered.

Saying "I like BW and I want to support them" undermines the Retake ME3 movement, since it shows them that even if we say we're displeased, we'll buy their products anyway.

BioWare just made a game that they love and have poured a ton of their life and time into. sacrifices and so on, so on. We've pretty much nailed home the point of dislike for the endings, now I think people are abusing this movement. It goes back to a lesson I hope most of us learned when we were young: Treat others as you would have them treat you, and if you haven't learned that lesson, then I am not speaking to you whatsoever, cause you might be a lost cause.

You should read the PR thread. It explains in great detail the mental process behind decisions in any big corporation.

We should be civil by all means, but we can't stop until we've got a concrete statement about fixed endings. We can show sympathy with the Bioware employees and how this situation must suck for them... But we can't show sympathy to Bioware as a whole because if we do that, we're giving in to PR indoctrination. If the pressure lets up, they'll be able to ride out the storm just like they did with DA2.

I like BioWare games, so damnit, I will play BioWare games. Hell I love ME3 immensely outside of the ending. Protesting by not buying their games does what in the long run?

It hits them in the only place their executives care about - the bank account. This is important, because it shows that the fans will not accept subpar products. It's also important because if the stated reason is "because the endings suck - we're willing to buy ending DLC to fix", it gives the corporate executives who greenlight projects an answer to latch onto.

[Red Dust]

Soilent Green is also people.

[DigitalMaster37]

Lugaidster wrote...

Deemz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works. 

Well said

Well said? We're trying to separate ourselves from stupid entitled brats by creating a notion that we are civil and mature and you say that's well said? I'm sorry, but if that's the case then there are some serious issues with this movement. Name calling and replying in a condescending is not a good way to advance the cause. 

This is why half of the people in Bioware is quiet, most of them would just snap out at fanboy outrage. PR exists to reduce damage to a minimum, we don't have that luxury. Name-calling and a condescending tone to those with different opinions is damaging to the cause.

I don't support nor agree, in a respectful way, with any statement jb1983 said.

Thank you. THis is what I was talking about. If I can't disagree with you without name calling or other degrading tactics, then I lack self control which means I am damaging my own voice. Being civil only means you have a better chance at being heard. 

[Kloborgg711]

Bioware is composed of people, but the decision will come from a corporate perspective. One developer's pity will not affect the higher-ups and their desire for profit.

[DigitalMaster37]

DaosX wrote...

Deltaboy - Just out of curiosity but is your name Chris Hoban by any chance?

(reference to Bioware employee giving biased reviews on DA2)

No, I am in no way connected to BioWare. I am a fan like you, if you are a fan. 

[DoodleMG]

Humans err for the sake of just plain being human and screwing it. Businesses however, have multiple writers and people on staff to make this far less likely to happen. Meaning? Someone knew this sucked. If someone did, I'm sure many heard it, and I'd say a lot of them tried to speak up/stop this form happening. But you know: Business is business, and writers don't make the decisions.

[jb1983]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

To respond, your issue is perspective. What you said is how you respond to a mistake or something faulty. Now I know we may view it that way, but they don't as it is a work of art and not an object that doesn't work anymore for instance or shipped faulty. 

Instead it is a disagreement on quality. And to further drive the point home, look at Chris' and Jessica's post. THAT IS A RESPONSE. Looking for information is basically saying in uncertain terms that "we want to know what you feel" so they can make changes. 

I swear we are at a place in society where everything must be RIGHT NOW and in reality it doesn't. Patience is in short supply and it is sad to see. 

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works.

YOu just showed me that you are in that group I mentioned in my OP post. Good luck with your point of view. If things were that simple, you'd be president I'd bet. nah.

If you sell widgets for 5 years and people love your widgets, then your widgets work. If you change your widgets a bit and 98% of your customers complain and demand you change them back, your widgets no longer work. You can say, "It was an artistic change!" But that doesn't change the fact that 98% of your customers hate your widget and won't buy further widgets from you unless you change it.

And I take it most company's you know change things two weeks after it is released.

...Don't answer that, it is a trap.

So they can walk around all day and look at the world through hipster glasses for all I care - if they want to continue to succeed as a business, they need to tell the writers to get over it, realize that their little "artistic venture" failed miserably, and rewrite it. if the writers cant do that, then you fire the writers. Why? Because Bioware isn't an art museum, it's a business, and in order to survive it has to please its customers.

 

quick enlightenment: Art museums are businesses too. 

Again, its been two weeks. 

It's not a matter of, "Tell me exactly how your'e going to fix it right now." It's more a matter of, "Guys, 98% of your fans are furious and want the endings changed. Why haven't you at least said you're going to do that?"

Everything they're doing right now is what will find its way into business textbooks tomorrow about what not to do when faced with a customer crisis like this.

Again it's been like.... 2 weeks... Heck I could argue that it is lest than that given the fact that they just released in Asia. Dude if we were having this conversation in in April or June, then I might give you a point for your argument, but your argument doesn't have legs to stand on imo. 

Your only response is, "It's been 2 weeks derp!" Weak.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Any successful business, especially corporations, handle negative publicity within days, not weeks. If it's a problem, then at the very least they say they are working on a solution to the problem. 

Think back to last year when the Olive Garden ran into a "flag problem" where a certain restaurant wouldn't let a group display an American flag. Within three days the corporation had issued an apology, changed corporate policy, and by the end of the month had little lapel pins for everyone in the company to wear on their collars. 

A much more serious disaster, the BP disaster, had BP talking about solutions and fixing the problem within a week of the disaster. 

The only time we've seen corporations stay quiet during massive public criticism is right before they fold.

Now obviously Bioware is a different beast in many regards, but it's also similar. 

Again, your whole, "It's been 2 weeks derp!" means absolutely nothing. I'm not asking for the source codes for the DLC. I'm not asking for details. I'm not even asking if I have to pay for it. I'm only asking that Bioware says, "Yes, we're working on it. It's coming. We just don't know when." 

There doesn't need to be a timeframe for that. Why can't you get this?

[wesr]

The corporation as an entity overrides any humanity in the employees as well as any of their decisions that will effect the profit margin. The entity then rigs the creative team with yes men who will push their agenda against all common sense and against any complaints of the individuals.

[DoodleMG]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

DaosX wrote...

Deltaboy - Just out of curiosity but is your name Chris Hoban by any chance?

(reference to Bioware employee giving biased reviews on DA2)

No, I am in no way connected to BioWare. I am a fan like you, if you are a fan. 

Yes, because fans post here. Occasionally.

Even the trolls here are fans on some level, so let's not be cute.

[jb1983]

Lugaidster wrote...

Deemz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works. 

Well said

Well said? We're trying to separate ourselves from stupid entitled brats by creating a notion that we are civil and mature and you say that's well said? I'm sorry, but if that's the case then there are some serious issues with this movement. Name calling and replying in a condescending is not a good way to advance the cause. 

This is why half of the people in Bioware is quiet, most of them would just snap out at fanboy outrage. PR exists to reduce damage to a minimum, we don't have that luxury. Name-calling and a condescending tone to those with different opinions is damaging to the cause.

I don't support nor agree, in a respectful way, with any statement jb1983 said.

So accusing us of dehumanizing people at Bioware is somehow civil? 

I am civil to a point. At the point someone doesn't understand basic business principles, but doesn't care anyway, I have a hard time being respectful. 

[DaosX]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

DaosX wrote...

Deltaboy - Just out of curiosity but is your name Chris Hoban by any chance?

(reference to Bioware employee giving biased reviews on DA2)

No, I am in no way connected to BioWare. I am a fan like you, if you are a fan. 

Not anymore...

[cinderburster]

DaosX wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

The dev's at BioWare are human just like us, they make a living doing what they do, we make a living doing whatever it is we do. Learn to put yourself in others shoes, it is what makes us human afterall because in one way or another you might have been in the other's shoes in some way.

BioWare just made a game that they love and have poured a ton of their life and time into. sacrifices and so on, so on. We've pretty much nailed home the point of dislike for the endings, now I think people are abusing this movement. It goes back to a lesson I hope most of us learned when we were young: Treat others as you would have them treat you, and if you haven't learned that lesson, then I am not speaking to you whatsoever, cause you might be a lost cause. 

While I do agree with your point about how humans err...but I truly don't think this was a case of human error. This was omitting content from the game. LIke all the people who are posting indoctrination theories (and even some Bioware employees are sort of hinting at it as well), it gives the impression that Bioware left out the ending on purpose with the intention of selling it as "DLC". What they didn't bargain for was just how bad of a backlash it would have on them. They let their greed get in the way and now they're paying for it.

It could have been greed, or it could have been EA breathing down their necks.  Benefit of the doubt, publishers HATE extending deadlines and/or putting more money into a project unless they absolutely have to.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but there's a chance that the devs put in a rushed ending with the plan to expand on it in DLC because they had to, not because they wanted to.

In the end, the devs are people, they are proud of their work, and they do deserve to be treated with respect and common decency, regardless of corporate's aims.

[DigitalMaster37]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I think the message is loud and clear for BioWare now. We spoke our peace, made our case and continue to do so.

Bioware is a corporation. Corporations are ruthless profit-maximization engines. This isnt really a bad thing, but it does mean that we can't treat Bioware the company as we'd treat any individual Bioware employee. The only way we'll get what we want is to convince them that there's money in it. Which is what a boycott does, by establishing that the consumer wants a new ending and will not give more money until that ending is delivered.

I respectfully disagree partially. If you are speaking of not buying any DLC that doesn't deal with the ending, then yes I agree. But what I am referring to is people cancelling SWTOR accounts and returning ME3. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I could argue that those people are terrible consumers in the first place, why did you initally buy SWTOR. I am almost scared to know. 

Saying "I like BW and I want to support them" undermines the Retake ME3 movement, since it shows them that even if we say we're displeased, we'll buy their products anyway.

BioWare just made a game that they love and have poured a ton of their life and time into. sacrifices and so on, so on. We've pretty much nailed home the point of dislike for the endings, now I think people are abusing this movement. It goes back to a lesson I hope most of us learned when we were young: Treat others as you would have them treat you, and if you haven't learned that lesson, then I am not speaking to you whatsoever, cause you might be a lost cause.

You should read the PR thread. It explains in great detail the mental process behind decisions in any big corporation.

We should be civil by all means, but we can't stop until we've got a concrete statement about fixed endings. We can show sympathy with the Bioware employees and how this situation must suck for them... But we can't show sympathy to Bioware as a whole because if we do that, we're giving in to PR indoctrination. If the pressure lets up, they'll be able to ride out the storm just like they did with DA2.

See but the mission statement contradicts itself. The real question for the movements mission statement should be "what is your real position?" I ask that because if you are passionate about this game (ME3) and the series as a whole, why would you starv the source of your potential solution??? its counterproductive. But it makes sense if you are refering to anything new regarding ME3 as in endings and/or DLC content. If said content doesn't fix our issue, then yes it becomes effective at sending the message we want, but by cancelling SWTOR??? WTF is that gonna do?

I like BioWare games, so damnit, I will play BioWare games. Hell I love ME3 immensely outside of the ending. Protesting by not buying their games does what in the long run?

It hits them in the only place their executives care about - the bank account. This is important, because it shows that the fans will not accept subpar products. It's also important because if the stated reason is "because the endings suck - we're willing to buy ending DLC to fix", it gives the corporate executives who greenlight projects an answer to latch onto.

I understand the logic, but again my only concern is that your understandinf on how that works is flawed. Based on what you are saying, you believe that a BioWare fan is a BioWare fan and that may or may not be true. I know SWTOR players who haven't even heard of Mass Effect before SWTOR. So again, have we really thought this through far enough?

[Lugaidster]

jb1983 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Deemz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works. 

Well said

Well said? We're trying to separate ourselves from stupid entitled brats by creating a notion that we are civil and mature and you say that's well said? I'm sorry, but if that's the case then there are some serious issues with this movement. Name calling and replying in a condescending is not a good way to advance the cause. 

This is why half of the people in Bioware is quiet, most of them would just snap out at fanboy outrage. PR exists to reduce damage to a minimum, we don't have that luxury. Name-calling and a condescending tone to those with different opinions is damaging to the cause.

I don't support nor agree, in a respectful way, with any statement jb1983 said.

So accusing us of dehumanizing people at Bioware is somehow civil? 

I am civil to a point. At the point someone doesn't understand basic business principles, but doesn't care anyway, I have a hard time being respectful. 

To support a movement like this everyone will have to make sacrifices. For some to stop playing the games they love, others will have to stop being douches. If you can't understand that being united in this means we have to be civil then the movement is doomed to fail. Patience is a virtue, one that is sorely missed right now.

[DigitalMaster37]

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

To respond, your issue is perspective. What you said is how you respond to a mistake or something faulty. Now I know we may view it that way, but they don't as it is a work of art and not an object that doesn't work anymore for instance or shipped faulty. 

Instead it is a disagreement on quality. And to further drive the point home, look at Chris' and Jessica's post. THAT IS A RESPONSE. Looking for information is basically saying in uncertain terms that "we want to know what you feel" so they can make changes. 

I swear we are at a place in society where everything must be RIGHT NOW and in reality it doesn't. Patience is in short supply and it is sad to see. 

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works.

YOu just showed me that you are in that group I mentioned in my OP post. Good luck with your point of view. If things were that simple, you'd be president I'd bet. nah.

If you sell widgets for 5 years and people love your widgets, then your widgets work. If you change your widgets a bit and 98% of your customers complain and demand you change them back, your widgets no longer work. You can say, "It was an artistic change!" But that doesn't change the fact that 98% of your customers hate your widget and won't buy further widgets from you unless you change it.

And I take it most company's you know change things two weeks after it is released.

...Don't answer that, it is a trap.

So they can walk around all day and look at the world through hipster glasses for all I care - if they want to continue to succeed as a business, they need to tell the writers to get over it, realize that their little "artistic venture" failed miserably, and rewrite it. if the writers cant do that, then you fire the writers. Why? Because Bioware isn't an art museum, it's a business, and in order to survive it has to please its customers.

 

quick enlightenment: Art museums are businesses too. 

Again, its been two weeks. 

It's not a matter of, "Tell me exactly how your'e going to fix it right now." It's more a matter of, "Guys, 98% of your fans are furious and want the endings changed. Why haven't you at least said you're going to do that?"

Everything they're doing right now is what will find its way into business textbooks tomorrow about what not to do when faced with a customer crisis like this.

Again it's been like.... 2 weeks... Heck I could argue that it is lest than that given the fact that they just released in Asia. Dude if we were having this conversation in in April or June, then I might give you a point for your argument, but your argument doesn't have legs to stand on imo. 

Your only response is, "It's been 2 weeks derp!" Weak.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Any successful business, especially corporations, handle negative publicity within days, not weeks. If it's a problem, then at the very least they say they are working on a solution to the problem. 

Think back to last year when the Olive Garden ran into a "flag problem" where a certain restaurant wouldn't let a group display an American flag. Within three days the corporation had issued an apology, changed corporate policy, and by the end of the month had little lapel pins for everyone in the company to wear on their collars. 

A much more serious disaster, the BP disaster, had BP talking about solutions and fixing the problem within a week of the disaster. 

The only time we've seen corporations stay quiet during massive public criticism is right before they fold.

Now obviously Bioware is a different beast in many regards, but it's also similar. 

Again, your whole, "It's been 2 weeks derp!" means absolutely nothing. I'm not asking for the source codes for the DLC. I'm not asking for details. I'm not even asking if I have to pay for it. I'm only asking that Bioware says, "Yes, we're working on it. It's coming. We just don't know when." 

There doesn't need to be a timeframe for that. Why can't you get this?

The very fact that you put the BP incident in the same context as this game is an autofail on your part, I am sorry but arguing with you is not worth the time, no offense. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

//reads OP's message....


Not buying it. Let the bashing continue.