263 réponses à ce sujet

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I respectfully disagree partially. If you are speaking of not buying any DLC that doesn't deal with the ending, then yes I agree. But what I am referring to is people cancelling SWTOR accounts and returning ME3. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I could argue that those people are terrible consumers in the first place, why did you initally buy SWTOR. I am almost scared to know.

I don't understand the reasoning. It's a matter of dollars. Every dollar that Bioware is no longer receiving brings them that much closer to meeting our demands. They're certainly not in danger of closing their doors given how much money they've already made. So really, every dollar kept from them until they listen to the fanbase is beneficial for us.

If you give them some dollars, you're basically telling them that your resolve is weak. "Oh I dislike the ending, but not so much that I won't stop buying your products." The reason this movement has gotten the official attention it has so far from them is because BW is feeling the pressure.

See but the mission statement contradicts itself. The real question for the movements mission statement should be "what is your real position?" I ask that because if you are passionate about this game (ME3) and the series as a whole, why would you starv the source of your potential solution??? its counterproductive. But it makes sense if you are refering to anything new regarding ME3 as in endings and/or DLC content. If said content doesn't fix our issue, then yes it becomes effective at sending the message we want, but by cancelling SWTOR??? WTF is that gonna do?

Refusing to buy BW products until the ending is fixed is a punishment meant to make them cave to our requirements. It's vaguely similar to a parent taking away their child's allowance until the child has apologized for some misbehavior.

The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but broadly that's how it works. We, the consumers, are the ultimate source from which all of BW's money stems. If we don't like their product, it's our duty as consumers to say "nope" and refuse to provide our money until Bioware has done what we ask. 

This is, in fact, the only real way we have of achieving our aims. Corporations are all about the dollars.

I understand the logic, but again my only concern is that your understandinf on how that works is flawed. Based on what you are saying, you believe that a BioWare fan is a BioWare fan and that may or may not be true. I know SWTOR players who haven't even heard of Mass Effect before SWTOR. So again, have we really thought this through far enough?

I'm not sure what relevance SWTOR players have here. I mean, it's not like BW is going to close up shop from this any time soon.

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 18 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[Bigdoser]

aliengmr1 wrote...

Agree with civility patience, but please stop with all the kid gloves nonsense. This idea that boycotting will hurt BW in any lasting way is absurd. Look what happened to Eve Online. They crossed a line with their customers and paid for it. You really think they would have done anything if people sat back and asked nicely? No. These situations arise when companies start seeing us as numbers. They want you to be afraid to bite the hand that feeds you. They need to know right now they are losing customers. They are going to do everything they can to wait this storm out.

BW knew this ending was going to ****** people off. Its my belief that they counted on a minority to be upset and not a majority. They talked about customers having a heated debate about the endings, which tells me they thought the "vocal" community would be split and bickering amongst themselves too much to do anything about it. IMO the ending shows how they tried to throw something together in order to even out the likes and dislikes. For example, instead watching your squad die from the beam, they are transported to the Normandy which gets marooned on a pretty planet. Seeing who steps out should make clear this was half-assed attempt to appease the "happy ending/LI" group. This is the only way I can explain that ridiculous scene.

My point is, BioWare messed up. The cheap, half-assed, tri-colored, single ending, to an other-wise beautifully written game speaks volumes. They need to be held accountable for that. They have an opportunity to earn my patronage back. I'll wait for their response, patiently, but if their next official announcement is Omega DLC, then its good-bye.

I personally think you nailed it.

[GiBBsBoT05]

JerusPI wrote...

"Sometimes People forget that Bioware are people"

So is Soylent Green

Just Saying

I almost died laughing from this.

[DigitalMaster37]

BWGungan wrote...

xsdob wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

While I still believe BioWare is listening to our concerns and make a dlc patch to thr endings, I don't blame people for wanting news right away.

But that isn't normal for any large corporation. As a business man myself, I understand things just don't happen that way. There is an addage that says, a small company is like a mouse, changes come fast and easy. With a larger corporation it is like an elaphant, quick turns are not possible and changes take time. Patience is the order of the day, you have to give them a chance. Everything they've done since we've been crying out says they are doing what they can to change and speak to us giving us the best they can. 

As a business man I know that is how it is. 

No. 

It doesn't take a long time to make an announcement or to release a few sentences saying an ending DLC is on its way, release TBA. 

I've worked in both small business and corporations. In the corporation I work for, the few times we get bad press we're usually on it that day. We formulate a quick response and say that we're "working towards a solution." We make it as clear as we can that we are working on a solution for the problem. 

Bioware has no excuse really.

They did do this, people here called them liars and conmen since they've been saying that they are listening and trying to fix the problem. We have ourselves to blame if we refuse to hear them when they speak.

No they didn't.  They said that "they're listening to feedback", that "feedback is taken into account when creating new DLC", and that "it's not the last you'll be seeing of Commander Shepard".   This could mean anything.  It could mean any kind of mission DLC like the type of stuff they added to ME2 that happens before the end of the game.

They never once said they are working on a solution to this specific problem.

But that is just it. When a company asks you to give them feedback in the manner BioWare has done it, they are setting the groundwork to give us what we want. WHy is that so hard to see?

Last I checked, company's don't waste their time doing this if they didn't want to follow up on it. 

[BWGungan]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I respectfully disagree partially. If you are speaking of not buying any DLC that doesn't deal with the ending, then yes I agree. But what I am referring to is people cancelling SWTOR accounts and returning ME3. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I could argue that those people are terrible consumers in the first place, why did you initally buy SWTOR. I am almost scared to know.

There are enough reasons to cancel SWTOR subscriptions without adding ME3 into the mix.  Although the problem is strangely similar:  Great story, lame endgame.

Modifié par BWGungan, 18 mars 2012 - 05:43 .

[MattFini]

The game has been out for almost two weeks. We have to remember it hasn't been that long yet.

Is it even customary for a compnay to announce specific DLC this early in a game's release?

Anyway, I am encouraged by what BioWare has said so far. Step in the right direction and hopefully they'll keep moving forward to give us what we want.

[BWGungan]

MattFini wrote...

The game has been out for almost two weeks. We have to remember it hasn't been that long yet.

Is it even customary for a compnay to announce specific DLC this early in a game's release?

Anyway, I am encouraged by what BioWare has said so far. Step in the right direction and hopefully they'll keep moving forward to give us what we want.

You mean like day 1 DLC, or what?

[Walrusninja]

To be totally fair, it's kind of easy to fall into that trap. Especially these days. When the one constant is that they want our money and many questions directed at them are cold shouldered or ignored (not all, they have some great staff), it can be easy to feel you're talking to "a company" instead of a person. An item instead of a being basically.

They certainly are just human, but there's not really any point in those here acting like they know them on a personal level and can trust them in a face to face sense, as we don't and 99.9% of us never will.

Personally, I wouldn't slate any of them in any more than a spur of the moment or jokey way. I wouldn't make it personal. However, I feel they are going more and more into "reclusive giant" mode and ignoring their roots. Very common and easy to fall into as you grow but I think reminding them is the right thing to do. As long as they treat us as customers in the great EA empire instead of fans of humble Bioware, I'll treat them as a big distant company.

Equally as they are individuals, so are we. While every one of them come together to form the company, we come together as the fanbase. Both collections of individuals, each can be held accountable. I believe some members of the Bioware team behind ME3 didn't do their job properly here and let themselves down. That translated over to the customers and hurt both. So basically, at the end of the day it comes down to "Mr Bioware" broke something "Mr customer" liked very much. Mr customer is holding "him" responsible - which translates to the customers being irritated with the company.

[Dhraconus]

When a corporation acts like a corporation they get treated like a corporation. If they want to be treated like people they need to do things to remind players they are people and not just corporate cogs.

I know that sounds harsh but it is true. Some game companies do manage to maintain their image as people. Stardock is the one that comes to mind most prominently. They recently (edit: 2 years ago... time flies when you get older) had a rather disastrous launch of a game. Take a look at how they handled it:

http://www.gameinfor...uot-launch.aspx

That was one week after launch (lots of other stuff about it, including giving a free expansion which is currently in beta to everyone that bought the game before a certain date). The forums went from rage to civil discussion about what was wrong and how it could be fixed almost instantly.

Obviously it's a little different situation, but the attitude in the way Bioware and Stardock handled their mistakes is HUGE and is reflected in the attitude of the communities. Bioware is doing this to themselves with their silence.

Modifié par Dhraconus, 18 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Bioware are not people. They are tyrants who killed my will to live.

HOLD THE LINE!

[Xandax]

Bioware is a company where some people have made a product for the mainstream computer game market that some people are unhappy with, therefore are in their right to complain about said product.
.
Bioware is not people.

[babelcarlota]

Yes they are people and should also put their shoes on our shoes. I, like many in this movement, remain civil about it. But yeah filing a government complaint might be going too far...

[DigitalMaster37]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

That's because Bioware are not people.

They are a corporation, and should be treated as such.

Bioware is not your pal. They are a company, you're their consumer. If you think the relationship between us and them is anything else, you are naive.

No, its deeper than that, we have arrived at that due to bad experiences. Corporations in America automatically get a bad rap for historical examples. 

The truth is there is a relationship. If there wasn't, none of us would be here right now discussing this. That is truly all the facts I need, but I'll go one step further. Yes the foundation of the relationship is money, but then there is the product. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Heck the same goes for friends and romantic relationships. 

Just let me know how long a wife stays a wife, when she stops taking care of her husband and vice versa. 

Let me know how long a friendship last when they stop being there for each other. 

Relationships are simple connections through something that is shared in common and through mutual exchanges to some degree or another. We all have a relationship with BioWare or none of us wouldn't be threatening divorce right now. 

[jb1983]

xsdob wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

While I still believe BioWare is listening to our concerns and make a dlc patch to thr endings, I don't blame people for wanting news right away.

But that isn't normal for any large corporation. As a business man myself, I understand things just don't happen that way. There is an addage that says, a small company is like a mouse, changes come fast and easy. With a larger corporation it is like an elaphant, quick turns are not possible and changes take time. Patience is the order of the day, you have to give them a chance. Everything they've done since we've been crying out says they are doing what they can to change and speak to us giving us the best they can. 

As a business man I know that is how it is. 

No. 

It doesn't take a long time to make an announcement or to release a few sentences saying an ending DLC is on its way, release TBA. 

I've worked in both small business and corporations. In the corporation I work for, the few times we get bad press we're usually on it that day. We formulate a quick response and say that we're "working towards a solution." We make it as clear as we can that we are working on a solution for the problem. 

Bioware has no excuse really.

To respond, your issue is perspective. What you said is how you respond to a mistake or something faulty. Now I know we may view it that way, but they don't as it is a work of art and not an object that doesn't work anymore for instance or shipped faulty. 

Instead it is a disagreement on quality. And to further drive the point home, look at Chris' and Jessica's post. THAT IS A RESPONSE. Looking for information is basically saying in uncertain terms that "we want to know what you feel" so they can make changes. 

I swear we are at a place in society where everything must be RIGHT NOW and in reality it doesn't. Patience is in short supply and it is sad to see. 

Look fanboy, let me enlighten you on how a business works. 

If you sell widgets for 5 years and people love your widgets, then your widgets work. If you change your widgets a bit and 98% of your customers complain and demand you change them back, your widgets no longer work. You can say, "It was an artistic change!" But that doesn't change the fact that 98% of your customers hate your widget and won't buy further widgets from you unless you change it. 

So they can walk around all day and look at the world through hipster glasses for all I care - if they want to continue to succeed as a business, they need to tell the writers to get over it, realize that their little "artistic venture" failed miserably, and rewrite it. if the writers cant do that, then you fire the writers. Why? Because Bioware isn't an art museum, it's a business, and in order to survive it has to please its customers. 

It's not a matter of, "Tell me exactly how your'e going to fix it right now." It's more a matter of, "Guys, 98% of your fans are furious and want the endings changed. Why haven't you at least said you're going to do that?"

Everything they're doing right now is what will find its way into business textbooks tomorrow about what not to do when faced with a customer crisis like this.

That analogy doesn't work because a widget doesn't require an entirely seperate processor in order to make itself visual work, and it isn't a physical product stored on a disc. Making new software for a game is a hell of a lto more difficult than making a fix for a widget and takes time.

And another thing, businesses take time to respond, espically entertainment media. In fact, the only fast response they do have is to pull a product, because the goverment makes it so damn easy to.

I understand the attack on the analogy, but you're taking the analogy too far. My initial point was to show that a business, when met with failure (that failure being that people hate your product), generally act swiftly to at least say they're fixing the problem or they're not around long. 

And that's the point - no business takes 2 weeks to say, "We're going to fix this problem" when 98% of its customers hate the product and that hatred is found on Forbes, CNN, HuffPo, and the like. Name one business that has met a problem like this and just sat on their hands, saying nothing or responding with vague replies. 

If I were at Bioware and I were working on an ending DLC, even just storyboarding it at this point, I would simply release a statement stating that an ending DLC is on its way, but there is no timeframe for when it'll be done. That right there would end this controversy, or at least deflate it quite a bit. 

That Bioware hasn't done this says a few things:

1) They're not working on an ending DLC
2) They're debating it, but they've failed to reach a conclusion (meaning they really don't know what they're doing)
3) They need to hire a new PR department
4) They've been blindsided and are so afraid of fan backlash that even if they're working on an ending DLC, they're far too afraid to say anything to only ignite the flames (the old, "If we don't say anything maybe it'll go away," only by not saying anything they're making it worse)

Personally, I think (4) is what's going on here. I think Casey's latest statement points heavily towards future ending DLC...but there's no reason to be cryptic with it. That's the whole point. 

[Bioras]

I know you won't see this...but they DO care.
I ...umd..do you know how many have have asked REAL lives to be put aside? Do you understand that some have pour into a game what we take for granted? Let them know.

[Icesong]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

BWGungan wrote...

xsdob wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

While I still believe BioWare is listening to our concerns and make a dlc patch to thr endings, I don't blame people for wanting news right away.

But that isn't normal for any large corporation. As a business man myself, I understand things just don't happen that way. There is an addage that says, a small company is like a mouse, changes come fast and easy. With a larger corporation it is like an elaphant, quick turns are not possible and changes take time. Patience is the order of the day, you have to give them a chance. Everything they've done since we've been crying out says they are doing what they can to change and speak to us giving us the best they can. 

As a business man I know that is how it is. 

No. 

It doesn't take a long time to make an announcement or to release a few sentences saying an ending DLC is on its way, release TBA. 

I've worked in both small business and corporations. In the corporation I work for, the few times we get bad press we're usually on it that day. We formulate a quick response and say that we're "working towards a solution." We make it as clear as we can that we are working on a solution for the problem. 

Bioware has no excuse really.

They did do this, people here called them liars and conmen since they've been saying that they are listening and trying to fix the problem. We have ourselves to blame if we refuse to hear them when they speak.

No they didn't.  They said that "they're listening to feedback", that "feedback is taken into account when creating new DLC", and that "it's not the last you'll be seeing of Commander Shepard".   This could mean anything.  It could mean any kind of mission DLC like the type of stuff they added to ME2 that happens before the end of the game.

They never once said they are working on a solution to this specific problem.

But that is just it. When a company asks you to give them feedback in the manner BioWare has done it, they are setting the groundwork to give us what we want. WHy is that so hard to see?

Last I checked, company's don't waste their time doing this if they didn't want to follow up on it. 

I've been watching developers interact with their fans for over a decade now and I struggle to think of any time a feedback thread amounted to much. How much time do you think it takes to open a thread? 

Modifié par Icesong, 18 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[jb1983]

Lugaidster wrote...


Go look at the media that criticize us and see what they are criticizing us for. They criticize us for being a bunch of disrespectful crying whining fanboys. By spouting "put on big boy pants" and "fanboy" you're not distancing yourself from that perception. I'm sorry, but it really doesn't matter if where you live people treat themselves like crap and it's normal, this is an international issue and that behaviour is not internationally acceptable. Treating someone in a civil manner is not conveyed by calling names or being condescending.

The worst part is that right now you're doing it to the people that is supposedly standing with you in the movement, imagine how that looks for outsiders that are pondering whether or not they join the cause. Even worse, imagine how that looks to the ones that oppose the movement using that argument. If you can't make a little bit of effort to be patient and civil (the international standard of it) then just be quiet. Since this movement lacks clear leadership, it is essential that those involved don't go around doing stuff that dilutes it's purpose. 

There isn't an "international standard" of civility. It's going to differ from region to region. Just accept that and move on. 

Telling people to put on the "big boy pants" is no different than saying "gird your loins," which would fly in many parts of the world (just not in America). And again, saying we're somehow "dehumanizing" Bioware employees is an act of civility? C'mon.

[Lugaidster]

jb1983 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...


Go look at the media that criticize us and see what they are criticizing us for. They criticize us for being a bunch of disrespectful crying whining fanboys. By spouting "put on big boy pants" and "fanboy" you're not distancing yourself from that perception. I'm sorry, but it really doesn't matter if where you live people treat themselves like crap and it's normal, this is an international issue and that behaviour is not internationally acceptable. Treating someone in a civil manner is not conveyed by calling names or being condescending.

The worst part is that right now you're doing it to the people that is supposedly standing with you in the movement, imagine how that looks for outsiders that are pondering whether or not they join the cause. Even worse, imagine how that looks to the ones that oppose the movement using that argument. If you can't make a little bit of effort to be patient and civil (the international standard of it) then just be quiet. Since this movement lacks clear leadership, it is essential that those involved don't go around doing stuff that dilutes it's purpose. 

There isn't an "international standard" of civility. It's going to differ from region to region. Just accept that and move on. 

Telling people to put on the "big boy pants" is no different than saying "gird your loins," which would fly in many parts of the world (just not in America). And again, saying we're somehow "dehumanizing" Bioware employees is an act of civility? C'mon.

Keep focusing on the non-issue... That'll do us a lot of good...

[Ricvenart]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Good point, but then I have to ask you what proof is there that they are spinning anything or giving us "PR" talk? 

Again, I am a business man so I know how it works and yes I have heard and seen my fair share of negative corporate actions and practices, but this isn't one of them. They are listening. 

Yes, some of the responses seem canned and I'll give that to you, but come on, we have nothing solid telling us that we're being given the runaround. If we never get what we are asking for, then we can start making those claims. 

I never said they weren't listening, simply they aren't saying much, if anything. Even by the Final Hours app and Interview of them claiming the ending is as intended is still open for interpetation of them intending to make us wait for the rest, for impact.

If my point is good, why must you ask for Evidence? Do I really need to link you to Casey Hudsons official response to the ending reaction, that anything you read out of is only your own interpertation. All I'm saying is that the fans they are responding to are people too.

Also regarding the talk of them being bashed, I do not condone it, but why is it only a select group that attacks bioware devs are ever mentioned? Why is it the frequent post that boil down into calling people idiots for not liking the endings get overlooked or being called immoral or childish for trying to make a change? By all means feel sorry for the likes of Jessica Merizan for the flak she has received over the endings but lets not paint the entire group with the same evil brush because of a select few within it and completely ignore the imposing side resorting, which also has a select few resorting to those tactics. And it's hardly even new for forum members to be attacking others over certain things, nor is it limited to the endings issue. Which I'd like to add, may not speak for everyone here, fuels the emotion of arguements at times, those individuals may be put "on egde" for said reason.

Ps. It's hard to appear civil in 140 characters or less, but that's all the more reason to leave out sweeping generalizations that are frivalous to the answer, when the implications (imply not said) cannot be made clear.

[garf]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

RagingCeltik wrote...

Retake Mass Effect: Mission Statement and Goals
http://social.biowar...ndex/10160364/1

We acknowledge the great talent and creativity of Bioware and its staff. That is first and foremost. We are here because their passion became our passion.

Exactly and that is part only is what I stand for, but the mission shoots itself in the foot, cause if you boycott to the point of starving them of profits, then the meat of your mission statement (to change the end of the game) dies as well along with any credibility to the statement of having passion for this game. 

Starv BioWare, you starv Mass Effect. The very game we love so much. 

Disagree. Bioware is a coporation. Money Talks, Pain is listened to.  Nothing else matters. Sorry. The decsion makers and gatekeepers will do NOTHING unless there's a clear profit/loss reason to do something. Unfortunate but true, unless we can effect the bottom line. All our words are as meaningful... as our choices with the current ending.

[WildcardCharlie]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...


No, its deeper than that, we have arrived at that due to bad experiences. Corporations in America automatically get a bad rap for historical examples. 

The truth is there is a relationship. If there wasn't, none of us would be here right now discussing this. That is truly all the facts I need, but I'll go one step further. Yes the foundation of the relationship is money, but then there is the product. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Heck the same goes for friends and romantic relationships. 

Just let me know how long a wife stays a wife, when she stops taking care of her husband and vice versa. 

Let me know how long a friendship last when they stop being there for each other. 

Relationships are simple connections through something that is shared in common and through mutual exchanges to some degree or another. We all have a relationship with BioWare or none of us wouldn't be threatening divorce right now. 

This is not a marriage or a friendship. We are here right now because we share an affinity for the same video game series.

Last I checked, you don't have to pay someone 60 dollars to be their friend, at least not in my experience.

The relationship is this: Bioware keeps making good games, and I will keep buying them. We'll keep posting on their forums because we like to talk to people who like the game, and a lot of our real life friends don't care/know about this series.

It's not any deeper than that.

[aliengmr1]

Listen if Bioware can ignore you by closing a tab in Firefox, you aren't being loud enough.

[jb1983]

Bioras wrote...

I know you won't see this...but they DO care.
I ...umd..do you know how many have have asked REAL lives to be put aside? Do you understand that some have pour into a game what we take for granted? Let them know.

Yeah, it's called having a job and a career. And if they want to keep those, they should probably pour harder. 

Consider the following scenario:

You go to a 5 star restaurant with a famous chef. This place is known for pleasing its customers. You decide to order a filet mignon, medium rare. You wait and wait and you're told that it's something to look forward to. 

When the food comes out, the filet mignon looks absolutely perfect...except for the giant cockroach sticking out from one end of it. When you point this out to the chef, he says, "I know, I put it there. It's my artistic statement." Now, he's put his life into making food, spent countless hours running the restaurant, and the place is full of his work. Do you eat the steak?

[jb1983]

Lugaidster wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...


Go look at the media that criticize us and see what they are criticizing us for. They criticize us for being a bunch of disrespectful crying whining fanboys. By spouting "put on big boy pants" and "fanboy" you're not distancing yourself from that perception. I'm sorry, but it really doesn't matter if where you live people treat themselves like crap and it's normal, this is an international issue and that behaviour is not internationally acceptable. Treating someone in a civil manner is not conveyed by calling names or being condescending.

The worst part is that right now you're doing it to the people that is supposedly standing with you in the movement, imagine how that looks for outsiders that are pondering whether or not they join the cause. Even worse, imagine how that looks to the ones that oppose the movement using that argument. If you can't make a little bit of effort to be patient and civil (the international standard of it) then just be quiet. Since this movement lacks clear leadership, it is essential that those involved don't go around doing stuff that dilutes it's purpose. 

There isn't an "international standard" of civility. It's going to differ from region to region. Just accept that and move on. 

Telling people to put on the "big boy pants" is no different than saying "gird your loins," which would fly in many parts of the world (just not in America). And again, saying we're somehow "dehumanizing" Bioware employees is an act of civility? C'mon.

Keep focusing on the non-issue... That'll do us a lot of good...