263 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

Jb if I met you in real life I would shake your hand or salute you. I personally think bioware has gotten abit too fat on success personally.  

Modifié par Bigdoser, 18 mars 2012 - 06:55 .

[DigitalMaster37]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But I'd almost guarantee that you'd have so much more respect for those that expressed their dissatidfaction with you in a civil way rather than be insensitive and tell you your product or service that you poured your heart into is a steaming pile of "Sh**"

You’re incorrect.

Ok, I can't argue how YOU feel about that. 

But if someone came to you in a civil coherent manner, I'd like to believe you'd be more inclined to take their opinion into account. 

That’s also incorrect. I don’t judge a person’s opinion a valid because they’re polite or invalid because they’re angry or rude.

I agree that angry feedback is still feedback, but rude feedback is someone I would ignore, cause to me they lack self control and that indicates that in most cases I can just throw money at that type of person and get they're love again which is mostly correct. People who have little self control are easily manipulated. 

[Ricvenart]

Love how this thread calling for "civility" proves my point that both sides have members that resort to the same tactics. Though it still doesn't mean everyone should be tarred by the same brush.

[pharsti]

I see no proof Bioware are people.

All you have is speculations!

[DigitalMaster37]

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...





You insist on comparing products to art.

naturally doesn't work. Try comparing art to art. 

A movie with a bad ending isn't bad, a book with a bad ending isn't bad. A song with a bad ending isn't inherently bad. That is the magic of art, it is a form of expression unlike a product. Products break and can be faulty, art cannot. Art is all about perception and taste. If you like one part, you make not like another, but that doesn't make it a bad product. 

...and you claim to know so much about business. 

ME3 isn't art. It can be artistic, but it isn't art. At the end of the day, it's a product that a company is trying to sell. 

A Monet is art. An independent film can be art. A video game is entertainment, not art. 

And even if we buy this stupid argument that it's somehow art, great, that doesn't change a thing I've said. It's art, cool, let's grant that. In that case, the art is still faulty. Why? Because some art, to be taken as successful, must be taken as a whole. Movies and novels work like this. If they lack a conclusion or have a conclusion that doesn't match the rest of the story, then the entire thing is a failure. Even in television we have a thing called "jumping the shark" where the "art" moves beyond its scope, to the point that it fails as being good art. 

So with ME3, the entire thing is broken, even as "art" (lulz). Why? Because the ending is incoherrent and leaves plot holes while contradicting other aspects of the story. One of the most past things in telling a story is not to violate any major a priori logical rules. The law of noncontradiction is known a priori to all humans. Thus, when your ending contradicts the story, your art has failed. A story must be taken as a whole and cannot be compartmentalized, that's just how it works. We can appreciate aspects of a story, we can even say that the story is a beautiful thing, but the story as a whole fails if one part doesn't work.

QED.

If there was a stronger word to use other than "NO" I'd use it here.

Please tell me I just misread what you said if you are this business man you claimed to be in the beginning. Okay walk me through the steps of registering a new wrench product versus a game...

...don't worry, I'll wait...

My point exactly. Gaming is an art form, and entertainment. The entertainment label alone is enough, but it is art. 

And if an independent film is art as it is entertainment, then gaming is art.

I'll indulge you. The fundamental problem with your argument is that art is based on more than just one thing. So is a product for that matter. As a business man, I think I'll argue you under the table... here goes.


Let me do you a favor and argue on your terms. Let's go with the product angle. If a wrench is released to the public, it will be judged on a few things, not just one. It will be mostly judged on its durability, flexibility, design and so on. If one of these areas lack, it is not a complete failure, it may lose to other competitor products, but somebody is gonna like it as a whole. IT ISN'T A FAILED PRODUCT. If a combination of those factors are totally faulty as in it DOESN'T work as advertised or wasn't properly manufactured, then, houston we have a problem!

Enter ME3, lets look at it as a product and not art for a second. Games are judged on a few things just like the wrench. Graphic quality, music, story, gameplay and longevity. According to our arguments, BioWare nailed almost everything except story in this one as the endings are lacking to most of us. If someone says otherwise, it is a direct result of the nature of art, people will have different opinions, as most people will not want a faulty wrench. Even the most anti-tool person will not want a faulty wrench.

Here is the kicker... Not only is that a fact, but some people like the ending, so your argument that it is a failed problem not only doesn't have legs, it's totally nonexistent. 

You'd be hard pressed to find me even a large group of people who hated ME3 as a whole. You would actually have to search for those people. 

Before I move on, do you understand what "as a whole" means? Is English your first langauge? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm asking this in all honesty.  Because it's obvious to me you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Was that your counterargument? If so, I rest my case. 

[XJ347]

Sergeant Dre wrote...

Sorry to burst your bubble. But 98% of the players don't hate it.

The forums, and the people that want a new ending, are a very small percent. You have around what? 40,000 people? And say ME3 sold, say 1 million copies. (Don't know if these are true numbers), then your groups percentage is........ low. I'm to tired to caculate it. 

But I respect your opinion and your urge to make Mass Effect better. And I wish you the best of luck, just don't be a dick to a company that has made better games then you can ever hope to.

In some ways you are right, 98% of the Mass Effect players do not hate the ending but that doesn't mean only 40,000 out of the million hate it. Only the very polerized people show up and complain but the fact that their is 40,000 shows that, if that many people are vocal about being unhappy then you know the silent portion must have a large portion of unhappy people too but are to busy or lazy to complain. I think you know the majority is on the side that says this ending has major issues.

I agree about treating Bioware with respect. I may not buy anything from them ever again but they have given me some good times, and I thank them for that.

[Icesong]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

LadyofRivendell wrote...

Thank you, TC! I wish more people thought like this. BW probably already feels pretty bad, I know I would if I poured my heart and hard work into something only to have people constantly insulting it. It's not like they WANTED to anger all of their fanbase... At least, I don't think they did.

There is a sadist in everyone of us to a degree...

Why does everyone keep bringing up the whole, "But they poured their heart and hard work into this" card? Hard work means nothing if it results in a bad product. I didn't give them my money because they worked hard, I gave them my money because I expected their hardwork to end in a great product. That's how businesses work...

The result isn't a bad product. It's a bad ending, yet that is subjective at best. Some people liked it, we cannot refute that. 

So I can also ask you "why do you keep bringing up the alternative?"

Most people on both sides of the issue think the overall product was great not good. So where does your conclusions come from? if you believe it was a bad product, then you are a minority on this issue.

If an essential part of a product doesn't function, then it's a bad product. If your luxury vehicle lacks tires, it's a bad product. If your incredible computer lacks a screen, it's a bad product. If novel lacks a conclusion, it's a bad product. 

So yes, it was a bad product. And the ending issue isn't subjective. When 98% of your fans on a poll say they hate the endings, and only 2% want to keep them like they are, then it's objectively bad. 

The game itself was fantastic. The ending was a failure. The ending is essential to the product. Thus it's a bad product. 

A is to B and B is to C. A, therefore C. 

You insist on comparing products to art.

naturally doesn't work. Try comparing art to art. 

A movie with a bad ending isn't bad, a book with a bad ending isn't bad. A song with a bad ending isn't inherently bad. That is the magic of art, it is a form of expression unlike a product. Products break and can be faulty, art cannot. Art is all about perception and taste. If you like one part, you make not like another, but that doesn't make it a bad product. 

...and you claim to know so much about business. 

Have you ever heard of sherlock homes? Yeah the author decided to kill sherlock homes off the fans got into a uproar and told the author to bring him back. Guess what the author did? He bought him back! Oh have you also heard of the movie I am legend? Yeah people did not like the ending they hated it and guess what they did? They put a alternative ending that people LIKED into the DVD version. 

And that proves my argument. Those people loved Sherlock holmes. The fact that they wanted to change the ending means that they loved the movie... except for one part. Yet the overall concensus is that they LOVED the movie. 

How much do you think they would have continued to love it if the ending was never changed? How much do you think we'll continue to love ME if nothing is done? Yeah, ME3 and ME in general was great -- but I won't think it's great for long if this is how it ends. I won't think of it at all.

Modifié par Icesong, 18 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[jb1983]

Bigdoser wrote...

Jb if I met you in real life I would shake your hand or salute you. I personally think bioware has gotten abit too fat on success personally.  

Much appreciated. 

And I don't think they got too far on the success (well, that could contribute to it). I think they almost went hipster with their ending. The pressure got to them, they wanted a huge ending, but just didn't realize that simple is better (you can have simple at the base with complexities built on top). 

Why is it that people were so excited over the Lord of the Rings trilogy or over the Hobbit being made into movies? I mean, we're decades past the release of those books, yet people who are hardly into their 30s read these books and love the movies. Why? Because at their base, the stories are very simple. Good vs. evil and good wins. There are complexities built atop the simple foundation, but that's what makes it good. Even in architecture there is always a simple foundation, even if the building itself is complex. 

I think Bioware lost this in their writing and went for complexity all over the place. Perhaps their success caused that. 

[Fl1xx]

We aren't asking for a "Sorry guys, we really screwed up." A simple "We are working on Ending-DLC. Please be patient." would suffice. There. We get our confirmation, Bioware gets some slack. However, all of this tiptoeing around the subject is driving me, and I take it others as well, up the wall.

The threat, or promise, to not purchase their products is a last resort, as in all else fails. If they don't answer to the consumers, they risk losing them. Simple.

Modifié par Fl1xx, 18 mars 2012 - 07:03 .

[jb1983]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...


Before I move on, do you understand what "as a whole" means? Is English your first langauge? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm asking this in all honesty.  Because it's obvious to me you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Was that your counterargument? If so, I rest my case. 

I'm asking if you understand what "as a whole means." I can't offer a counter-argument until I know we mean the same thing when we say "as a whole." 

[Zix13]

Sergeant Dre wrote...

Sorry to burst your bubble. But 98% of the players don't hate it.

The forums, and the people that want a new ending, are a very small percent. You have around what? 40,000 people? And say ME3 sold, say 1 million copies. (Don't know if these are true numbers), then your groups percentage is........ low. I'm to tired to caculate it. 

But I respect your opinion and your urge to make Mass Effect better. And I wish you the best of luck, just don't be a dick to a company that has made better games then you can ever hope to.

Bro, any literate twelve year old could write a better ending. And the fact that only so many people are active on forums does not mean that other people are not upset. The simplest logic is that the forums demographic of people who like the ending vs those who don't like it applies to the entirety of gamers who have purchased me3. Your arguement is weak.

[DigitalMaster37]

Icesong wrote...

Sorry, but Holmes was a book series. You should really know that. And how much do you think they would have continued to love it if the ending was never changed? How much do you think we'll continue to love ME if nothing is done? Yeah, ME3 and ME in general was great -- but I won't think it's great for long if this is how it ends. I won't think of it at all.

Yeah, you got me, I never read it. Yet my argument still holds true imo. They made a big thing about it for the very reason they loved it. If we didn't already love this game and series as is, we wouldn't be arguing it. ANyone trying to say they hate this game while arguing to this degree either has alterior motives or is simply lying. No other way to see it imo. 

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 18 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[DigitalMaster37]

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...


Before I move on, do you understand what "as a whole" means? Is English your first langauge? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm asking this in all honesty.  Because it's obvious to me you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Was that your counterargument? If so, I rest my case. 

I'm asking if you understand what "as a whole means." I can't offer a counter-argument until I know we mean the same thing when we say "as a whole." 

We both know what "as a whole" mean, so where is your counter argument? I can tell a stall attempt when I see one. You know very well I know what it means. Stop stalling. Just admit your argument failed before it even began. 

[jb1983]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...


Before I move on, do you understand what "as a whole" means? Is English your first langauge? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm asking this in all honesty.  Because it's obvious to me you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Was that your counterargument? If so, I rest my case. 

I'm asking if you understand what "as a whole means." I can't offer a counter-argument until I know we mean the same thing when we say "as a whole." 

We both know what "as a whole" mean, so where is your counter argument? I can tell a stall attempt when I see one. You know very well I know what it means. Stop stalling. Just admit your argument failed before it even began. 

Was the short bus a bumpy ride, I've always been curious. 

I'm not stalling. I'm asking you to define "as a whole." My contention is that you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Look to your argument. You're saying, "Oh, one part doesn't work, but the entire thing can work." No, it can't. In narrative-based art, if one part contradicts the other and there's no solution given to the contradiction, then the story as a whole fails. We can appreciate parts of it, but as a whole (that means when taken collectively, in the meta-view of the piece) it fails.

There are parts to stories that are crucial, so crucial that if they fail the entire thing fails. Look at a story as a pyramid; the closer we get to the bottom of the period, the more base a thing is. If we remove a bottom block, the entire structure would collapse. If we remove a top block, it could still stay in place. Things like plot development, introductions, filler, and conclusions are base things. Ruin any of those, and you ruin the story as a whole. 

Likewise, the fact that some people like it doesn't prove anything - if the vast majority of people hate what you offer, and your job is to get people to like what you offer, then what you offer has failed.

That's what I mean by you don't understand "as a whole" means. That's why I'm asking you to define your understanding of it. That you can't means I'm right - you don't know what it means.

[jb1983]

Here, you need to watch this. This pretty much explains what I'm trying to say to you:

Great fan response

[DigitalMaster37]

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...


Before I move on, do you understand what "as a whole" means? Is English your first langauge? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm asking this in all honesty.  Because it's obvious to me you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Was that your counterargument? If so, I rest my case. 

I'm asking if you understand what "as a whole means." I can't offer a counter-argument until I know we mean the same thing when we say "as a whole." 

We both know what "as a whole" mean, so where is your counter argument? I can tell a stall attempt when I see one. You know very well I know what it means. Stop stalling. Just admit your argument failed before it even began. 

Was the short bus a bumpy ride, I've always been curious. 

I'm not stalling. I'm asking you to define "as a whole." My contention is that you don't understand what "as a whole" means. 

Look to your argument. You're saying, "Oh, one part doesn't work, but the entire thing can work." No, it can't. In narrative-based art, if one part contradicts the other and there's no solution given to the contradiction, then the story as a whole fails. We can appreciate parts of it, but as a whole (that means when taken collectively, in the meta-view of the piece) it fails.

There are parts to stories that are crucial, so crucial that if they fail the entire thing fails. Look at a story as a pyramid; the closer we get to the bottom of the period, the more base a thing is. If we remove a bottom block, the entire structure would collapse. If we remove a top block, it could still stay in place. Things like plot development, introductions, filler, and conclusions are base things. Ruin any of those, and you ruin the story as a whole. 

Likewise, the fact that some people like it doesn't prove anything - if the vast majority of people hate what you offer, and your job is to get people to like what you offer, then what you offer has failed.

That's what I mean by you don't understand "as a whole" means. That's why I'm asking you to define your understanding of it. That you can't means I'm right - you don't know what it means.

The only reason I am tolerating you is because I have the tough skin to deal with your type without totally burying you with your own tactics. Even civil people can punch back, but I will do what you cannot, that is have a coherent conversation without the need for personal attacks in order to make myself feel good. Trust me, I totally could stick it to you, but I'll be the bigger man. 

Yet here-goes. Inspiring breakdown of your view of "as a whole". Again, your perception is flawed and in the desire of not repeating myself, I will say again that your argument fails for reasons I already stated. I agree that the conclusion and beginng is very important. Yet, the very fact that it can be argued that the conclusion is more important than the filler story or the beginning proves my point yet again. ME3 is art and the fact that people have different opinions regarding what is the most important phase of the story as in foundation or key parts in it is indicative of my point.

You feel the ending weighs that heavy on the "whole", others may not. If everyone thought like you, then you'd have a point. But fortunately for the rest of us, you are you and we are who we are. In fact I cringe at the thought of thinking like you, no offense. 

So once again, I ask you, where is the foundation of your argument? Or better yet, checkmate.

[DigitalMaster37]

jb1983 wrote...

Here, you need to watch this. This pretty much explains what I'm trying to say to you:

Great fan response

and that link explains the content of your argument... empty


click it again...

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 18 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[Maria Caliban]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But I'd almost guarantee that you'd have so much more respect for those that expressed their dissatidfaction with you in a civil way rather than be insensitive and tell you your product or service that you poured your heart into is a steaming pile of "Sh**"

You’re incorrect.

Ok, I can't argue how YOU feel about that. 

I’m inclined to think that many would act as you describe and be poorer artists for it.

I agree that angry feedback is still feedback, but rude feedback is someone I would ignore, cause to me they lack self control and that indicates that in most cases I can just throw money at that type of person and get they're love again which is mostly correct. People who have little self control are easily manipulated. 

Either someone is polite to you, or you see them as lacking self-control and easily manipulated. I can’t say I agree.

[jb1983]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

Here, you need to watch this. This pretty much explains what I'm trying to say to you:

Great fan response

and that link explains the content of your argument... empty


click it again...

Aparently I trolled myself. 

www.youtube.com/watch

[Turtlicious]

Brahlis wrote...

They're people that just **** on my chest.

I expect them to clean it up.

Why? That sounds hawt. That's the LI scen I  wanted.

Modifié par Turtlicious, 18 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[SirCrimz]

I think most people are just concerned that Bioware is just waiting for people to run out of steam and just ignore the problem all together. Keeping the pressure on Bioware gives the people a better chance at getting what they want.

If Bioware made a statement that they will be creating an ending, many people wouldn't mind it if they take as much time as they need so the developers aren't pressured.

[Turtlicious]

SirCrimz wrote...

I think most people are just concerned that Bioware is just waiting for people to run out of steam and just ignore the problem all together. Keeping the pressure on Bioware gives the people a better chance at getting what they want.

If Bioware made a statement that they will be creating an ending, many people wouldn't mind it if they take as much time as they need so the developers aren't pressured.

I know that's what I'm terrified of.

[DigitalMaster37]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But I'd almost guarantee that you'd have so much more respect for those that expressed their dissatidfaction with you in a civil way rather than be insensitive and tell you your product or service that you poured your heart into is a steaming pile of "Sh**"

You’re incorrect.

Ok, I can't argue how YOU feel about that. 

I’m inclined to think that many would act as you describe and be poorer artists for it.

I think you misunderstand me. Content filled feedback is good no matter, but what I am saying is that most rude feedback isn't feedback at all. 

I agree that angry feedback is still feedback, but rude feedback is someone I would ignore, cause to me they lack self control and that indicates that in most cases I can just throw money at that type of person and get they're love again which is mostly correct. People who have little self control are easily manipulated. 

Either someone is polite to you, or you see them as lacking self-control and easily manipulated. I can’t say I agree.

That is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. I don't expect feedback and criticism to come with roses and I never alluded to that. I am saying that people who can make complete sentences without blatant disrespect filling each line while being critical and constructive enough so that I can understand what they did not like is totally acceptable. Being rude to the point of incohence which is happening on the BSN right now is what I am referring to as stuff I'd ignore. Honestly, I am willing to bet you most artist do this. I am a music artist on the side as you may already know so I have experience getting the harsh truth thrown at me in both coherent and rude ways. I am better because of it, but again, its the rude incoherent stuff that gets ignored. 

[Computron2000]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

You feel the ending weighs that heavy on the "whole", others may not. If everyone thought like you, then you'd have a point. But fortunately for the rest of us, you are you and we are who we are. In fact I cringe at the thought of thinking like you, no offense. 

So once again, I ask you, where is the foundation of your argument? Or better yet, checkmate.

Do not attempt to represent yourself as a majority (and your poorly disguised passive aggressiveness definitely does not represent me) unless you have real numbers backing you. Inferrence of 1 miillon copies shipped vs complaints does not hold water unless you can prove a vast majority have actually finished the game and like it.

On the other hand, the poll done on the endings is obvious in the numbers who love it and the numbers do dislike it in some way

[Turtlicious]

Seriously though, am I the only one who wants to see Shepard in a Gimp suit getting whipped by Garrus?