254 réponses à ce sujet

[effortname]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

effortname wrote...

It's actually known as leverage. The leverage here being the fans flooding the forums with more or less civil banter that's exclusively focused on the ending. It prevents anyone from really using the forums, while forcing Bioware to address the issue.

So, have we been barking up each other's trees for no good reason? I'm fine with that: it's dynamic, it's practical, and it neither violates forum rules or basic ethics.

What I have a problem with is the increase in slander, blatent attacks, etc. and their potential for fracturing an otherwise effective arrangement.

I've just been defending my rational argumentation versus people getting all up in flames point. I think it's pretty clever. So yeah, I guess we're both cool with people getting all up in flames over the ending then.

[Eivuwan]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

gudman wrote...

Sentr0 wrote...

yeah OP is totally RIGHT i am sick tired of this stupids arrogant unrespectful kids and their fu**ing threads. Really if you dont like the ending then you SHOULDNT HAVE BOUGHT THE GAME. It's so simple, but i image you're too RETARDED to understand that.

And stop with the complains you have no fu**ing right, consider yourself lucky that bioware let you play their games even you dont f*cking deserve that

Seems like you're too retarded to understand that to get to see the ending I NEED to buy the game.

Actually you don't. Youtube as one example from many.

Lots of people (I would say most) try to avoid spoilers because it can affect their enjoyment of the game. It's unreasonable to expect people to research too heavily into how good the plot is before buying a game.

[Dragoonlordz]

Sidra2099 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Johcande XX wrote...

There are overzealous individuals on both sides; and as always with the internet, people are a lot meaner behind the veil of anonymity. This thread won't change that, some things in this world are inevitable. You know unless your in a police state that monitors free speech, but whatevs.

I declare this thread to be a waste of time.

It is never a waste of time to ask for civility, reason and respect.

This is true. Although it is also probably true that the arguments in this thread are becoming more personal, and consequently less effective at establishing any form of consensus on how to establish boundaries for mutual respect about an hotly debated topic.

Which is part of the reason I created it asking for calm, reasonable and respectful approach to getting what they want. An issue with methods not principle of asking for something or being unhappy about something. 

The personal attacks, the aggression the threats and more are the reason and as shown by responses in here clearly it is needed to be said and driven home more often to those who use such. I cited examples of when vitriol and bile plus disdain and threats were present and explained why I think this is beginning to reach a point when action needs to be taken in earnest to curb the amount of it going on.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[Qutayba]

OK, I can see some of the OP's point. I also find boycotts, twitter and ratings bombing, etc. to be a little bit overkill. If your spouse messed something up, I hope you don't beat them, but instead try to work it out. Maybe that's not the best analogy, but it captures some aspect of it.

That being said, an awful lot of us - maybe even most of us (no way to accurately measure) - who want new endings are trying to put the idea forward in a civil and respectful way.

And while this observation is also not measurable in any way, most of the posts I've seen that are "pro-ending" tend to focus on why the "anti-ending" people are annoying, entitled brats, etc., etc. If you like the ending, say why. Don't waste your time insulting the other side (like I'm doing - oh, the irony!).

I hate feeding the trolls, but some of these trolls are just so good at getting my dander up. They must have taken a course, or something.

Modifié par Qutayba, 18 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[Jadebaby]

Emcmillin09 wrote...

Eivuwan wrote...

Also you make it sound as though Bioware is doing us a favor by making these games. They are making them because we're paying for them. Consumers have a right to boycott products they don't like and tell others about how bad a product is. Bioware has spent so much time honing their skills to make rpgs. Do you really think that they can just switch to FPS and make equal amounts of money?

Could Bioware use that money to go to my Hemroid treatment? It would be good PR, giving their loyal customer the ability to sit down and enjoy their game.

Oh I  BSN

[jb1983]

daisekihan wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

commonperson wrote...

I have to say I agree. I find this "hold the line" thing kind of distrubing. An writer sits down to create a piece of work and pours their soul in to it. They create something they feel is powerful and moving and resolves the story they have been telling. Then just because a vocal group of individuals don't like it they are expected to change their story. That's akin to going back and changing Lord of the Rings to a slap happy road trip. This kind of loops back to an "ownership" argument regarding art. Art for the viewer versus Art for art's sake. Frankly I'm of the opinion the artist creates the work for themselves, they put it out there for people to take from it what they will. Mass Effect 3 was a poigniont story with a powerful conclusion. It's like in Serenity, no one wanted Wash to die. But we needed him to die, we needed to be reminded that the universe isn't shiny and things don't always turn out the way we hope.

My God, do you make a hobby of repeating the same tired arguments that have nothing to do with what we're actually objecting to? We don't mind Shepard dying or the ending not being sunshine and roses, we just want it to make sense --- as in, why did the Normandy leave the battle and zip off into hyperspace? Also, as it stands, you're comparison isn't quite accurate, because in ME everyone (except perhaps those on the Normandy) is going to die of starvation due to lack of resources with a population that depends on the relays, and even if some places make it, Earth is definitely screwed due half of it being reduced to firey rubble while its population triples.

We want to CHOOSE our ending. That's the whole point of the mass effect series, isn't it?
Not "16" slightly different endings, all with the same major results.

I agree in principle, I'm just saying that the previous poster is using a scarecrow argument that all people who object to the endings care about is letting Shepard walk off into the sunset.

I think you nailed it. 

I would ask this - in a game where our choices matter, who cares if someone wants Shepard to ride off into the sunset? That should be an ending...so should the Reapers doing what they do best; Reaping. 

You're right - that's what we're actually upset about. It's not that people want their Shepard to go off and have blue babies, it's that that ending should at least be one option out of a few others. 

But I guess to me, the final nail in the coffin of that stupid "it's all about the art silly" argument is this; if it's all about the writers, if it's all about their vision, then why the hell did they give us choices to make? At some point, these people need to realize that it's not about the writers, it's about us. Is that entitled? No. I'm a customer, it's about me, that's how the world works. 

Modifié par jb1983, 18 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[Auralius Carolus]

effortname wrote...

I've just been defending my rational argumentation versus people getting all up in flames point. I think it's pretty clever. So yeah, I guess we're both cool with people getting all up in flames over the ending then.

So long as those said people understand the need to harness those flames and put them to use instead of letting them run wild and causing a forest fire, yeah.

[Jadebaby]

Sentr0 wrote...

yeah OP is totally RIGHT i am sick tired of this stupids arrogant unrespectful kids and their fu**ing threads. Really if you dont like the ending then you SHOULDNT HAVE BOUGHT THE GAME. It's so simple, but i image you're too RETARDED to understand that.

And stop with the complains you have no fu**ing right, consider yourself lucky that bioware let you play their games even you dont f*cking deserve that

reported

[Dragoonlordz]

jb1983 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

We want to CHOOSE our ending. That's the whole point of the mass effect series, isn't it?
Not "16" slightly different endings, all with the same major results.

I agree in principle, I'm just saying that the previous poster is using a scarecrow argument that all people who object to the endings care about is letting Shepard walk off into the sunset.

I think you nailed it. 

I would ask this - in a game where our choices matter, who cares if someone wants Shepard to ride off into the sunset? That should be an ending...so should the Reapers doing what they do best; Reaping. 

You're right - that's what we're actually upset about. It's not that people want their Shepard to go off and have blue babies, it's that that ending should at least be one option out of a few others. 

But I guess to me, the final nail in the coffin of that stupid "it's all about the art silly" argument is this; if it's all about the writers, if it's all about their vision, then why the hell did they give us choices to make? At some point, these people need to realize that it's not about the writers, it's about us. Is that entitled? No. I'm a customer, it's about me, that's how the world works. 

You seem however to misunderstand that it has and will never be really your story, it has and always will be their story they wished to tell. You have the bonus of having choices within the framework of that story of theirs. You do not get all the things you want for $40-$60 unless you up that cost to investing $3million at which time you get the game you want your way without question. The $40-$60 only gets you what they created though you have input via feedback towards the title or the next one which they hope you enjoy. They choose the choices within their framework and sometimes you might not be happy with the choices they give but it has and always was their story to tell how they wanted to tell it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 07:50 .

[WizenSlinky0]

I don't think I could be more respectful and reasonable than I already am...

As writing and the medium in which we transmit it evolve authors are losing the "its my story excuse". These games and many stories have vastly different experiences to different players. In many ways, players are becoming the producers of the content of their story.

This demands a new level of understanding from developers that the old model will no longer work. Just as consumers must understand that just because things are changing, doesn't mean everything is.

[Sidra2099]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Sidra2099 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Johcande XX wrote...

There are overzealous individuals on both sides; and as always with the internet, people are a lot meaner behind the veil of anonymity. This thread won't change that, some things in this world are inevitable. You know unless your in a police state that monitors free speech, but whatevs.

I declare this thread to be a waste of time.

It is never a waste of time to ask for civility, reason and respect.

This is true. Although it is also probably true that the arguments in this thread are becoming more personal, and consequently less effective at establishing any form of consensus on how to establish boundaries for mutual respect about an hotly debated topic.

Which is part of the reason I created it asking for calm, reasonable and respectful approach to getting what they want. An issue with methods not principle of asking for something or being unhappy about something. 

The personal attacks, the aggression the threats and more are the reason and as shown by responses in here clearly it is needed to be said and driven home more often to those who use it.

To be fair, the initial tone of the opening post was somewhat antagonistic, although I can understand that it is probably born of frustration. 

If I assert that 'X is recklessly hostile', and attempt to justify my claim by picking a fight, my evidence might be somewhat biased. In any case, the probability that X will become NON-HOSTILE, or AGREEABLE, is highly unlikely.  If I claimed that X was an alcoholic, and attempted to prove it by inviting him for a drink, it seems somewhat like a trap. And the possibility of X suddenly gaining self-awareness and realizing the folly of his actions after falling for a trap seems... somewhat remote. 

[kaisterbahn]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

We want to CHOOSE our ending. That's the whole point of the mass effect series, isn't it?
Not "16" slightly different endings, all with the same major results.

I agree in principle, I'm just saying that the previous poster is using a scarecrow argument that all people who object to the endings care about is letting Shepard walk off into the sunset.

I think you nailed it. 

I would ask this - in a game where our choices matter, who cares if someone wants Shepard to ride off into the sunset? That should be an ending...so should the Reapers doing what they do best; Reaping. 

You're right - that's what we're actually upset about. It's not that people want their Shepard to go off and have blue babies, it's that that ending should at least be one option out of a few others. 

But I guess to me, the final nail in the coffin of that stupid "it's all about the art silly" argument is this; if it's all about the writers, if it's all about their vision, then why the hell did they give us choices to make? At some point, these people need to realize that it's not about the writers, it's about us. Is that entitled? No. I'm a customer, it's about me, that's how the world works. 

You seem however to misunderstand that it has and will never be really your story, it has and always will be their story they wished to tell. You have the bonus of having choices within the framework of that story of theirs. You do not get all the things you want for $40-$60 unless you up that cost to investing $3million at which time you get the game you want your way without question. The $40-$60 only gets you what they created though you have input via feedback towards the title or the next one which they hope you enjoy. They choose the choices within their framework and sometimes you might not be happy with the choices they give but it has and always was their story to tell how they wanted to tell it.

This argument has been killed 100 times over by the free market. Soz.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Qutayba wrote...

OK, I can see some of the OP's point. I also find boycotts, twitter and ratings bombing, etc. to be a little bit overkill. If your spouse messed something up, I hope you don't beat them, but instead try to work it out. Maybe that's not the best analogy, but it captures some aspect of it.

That being said, an awful lot of us - maybe even most of us (no way to accurately measure) - who want new endings are trying to put the idea forward in a civil and respectful way.

And while this observation is also not measurable in any way, most of the posts I've seen that are "pro-ending" tend to focus on why the "anti-ending" people are annoying, entitled brats, etc., etc. If you like the ending, say why. Don't waste your time insulting the other side (like I'm doing - oh, the irony!).

I hate feeding the trolls, but some of these trolls are just so good at getting my dander up. They must have taken a course, or something.

Someone get this guy a cookie.

[Dragoonlordz]

kaisterbahn wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

We want to CHOOSE our ending. That's the whole point of the mass effect series, isn't it?
Not "16" slightly different endings, all with the same major results.

I agree in principle, I'm just saying that the previous poster is using a scarecrow argument that all people who object to the endings care about is letting Shepard walk off into the sunset.

I think you nailed it. 

I would ask this - in a game where our choices matter, who cares if someone wants Shepard to ride off into the sunset? That should be an ending...so should the Reapers doing what they do best; Reaping. 

You're right - that's what we're actually upset about. It's not that people want their Shepard to go off and have blue babies, it's that that ending should at least be one option out of a few others. 

But I guess to me, the final nail in the coffin of that stupid "it's all about the art silly" argument is this; if it's all about the writers, if it's all about their vision, then why the hell did they give us choices to make? At some point, these people need to realize that it's not about the writers, it's about us. Is that entitled? No. I'm a customer, it's about me, that's how the world works. 

You seem however to misunderstand that it has and will never be really your story, it has and always will be their story they wished to tell. You have the bonus of having choices within the framework of that story of theirs. You do not get all the things you want for $40-$60 unless you up that cost to investing $3million at which time you get the game you want your way without question. The $40-$60 only gets you what they created though you have input via feedback towards the title or the next one which they hope you enjoy. They choose the choices within their framework and sometimes you might not be happy with the choices they give but it has and always was their story to tell how they wanted to tell it.

This argument has been killed 100 times over by the free market. Soz.

You in for a surprise if you think in this situation my example is not accurate. If they choose to give you anything extra it will be their choice and the more threatening you are the more defensive they will get.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 08:07 .

[Allison_Lightning]

It's not a bonus if its an RPG, it is not a bonus when you're promised an ending based on a culmination of all your choices, not generic and you're told to pick your colour of explosion. RPG games are different than other videogames in questions, if I wanted to play a game where I had no choice, I'd play a straight FPS or sci-fi adventure game with a dictated story.

It's a product that people have bought into for the sole reason that it does what it was advertised to do and it failed. Stop these comparisons to books, movies, tv shows and even other games- because people buy Bioware because of the rpg and choices you get. If Bioware no longer will do that anymore then people will stop buying their games. People put up with the technical glitches and all the other problems for the unique experience of a Bioware game which lets you shape the story because they have put in the work, to all aspects including the ending

Bioware is losing what makes it unique by doing what they've done and the unique card is what keeps them going compared to other game companies with average stories and less technical issues. I wouldn't be able to invest in any new series of theirs without waiting for the last game because I don't know if they'll follow through and any exception would be after a game has been released long enough to know its quality. It comes down to why most people choose this brand.

[Dragoonlordz]

Allison_Lightning wrote...

It's not a bonus if its an RPG, it is not a bonus when you're promised an ending based on a culmination of all your choices, not generic and you're told to pick your colour of explosion. RPG games are different than other videogames in questions, if I wanted to play a game where I had no choice, I'd play a straight FPS or sci-fi adventure game with a dictated story.

It's a product that people have bought into for the sole reason that it does what it was advertised to do and it failed. Stop these comparisons to books, movies, tv shows and even other games- because people buy Bioware because of the rpg and choices you get. If Bioware no longer will do that anymore then people will stop buying their games. People put up with the technical glitches and all the other problems for the unique experience of a Bioware game which lets you shape the story because they have put in the work, to all aspects including the ending

Bioware is losing what makes it unique by doing what they've done and the unique card is what keeps them going compared to other game companies with average stories and less technical issues. I wouldn't be able to invest in any new series of theirs without waiting for the last game because I don't know if they'll follow through and any exception would be after a game has been released long enough to know its quality. It comes down to why most people choose this brand.

Technically it is not advertised as an RPG anymore on the EA site or store so I have been told. Bioware themselves (Ray and Greg) said they do not class what they make as RPG's anymore, they merely tell stories.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 08:10 .

[CDRSkyShepard]

Question, OP...would you agree with me if I said that a piece of art that will later be sold - whether to one person or millions of people - can be regarded as a "commission?"

[Dragoonlordz]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Question, OP...would you agree with me if I said that a piece of art that will later be sold - whether to one person or millions of people - can be regarded as a "commission?"

Different forms of art. From artists that paint or create a sculpture who will never change it for a customer because it is an expression of that artist and tends to make thousands or millions from it's sale "as is". To the backroom or office artist paid commission on request of a customer how the customer wants it. Games are a mix of both but tilts more to the former because the game is created first and foremost with the developers intention and direction, the customer leaves ideas and feedback but they do not dictate the story the developer wishes to express and tell. Any freedom or changes to their art is up to the artist being developer in this case.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[kaisterbahn]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kaisterbahn wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

daisekihan wrote...

MaYtriX wrote...

We want to CHOOSE our ending. That's the whole point of the mass effect series, isn't it?
Not "16" slightly different endings, all with the same major results.

I agree in principle, I'm just saying that the previous poster is using a scarecrow argument that all people who object to the endings care about is letting Shepard walk off into the sunset.

I think you nailed it. 

I would ask this - in a game where our choices matter, who cares if someone wants Shepard to ride off into the sunset? That should be an ending...so should the Reapers doing what they do best; Reaping. 

You're right - that's what we're actually upset about. It's not that people want their Shepard to go off and have blue babies, it's that that ending should at least be one option out of a few others. 

But I guess to me, the final nail in the coffin of that stupid "it's all about the art silly" argument is this; if it's all about the writers, if it's all about their vision, then why the hell did they give us choices to make? At some point, these people need to realize that it's not about the writers, it's about us. Is that entitled? No. I'm a customer, it's about me, that's how the world works. 

You seem however to misunderstand that it has and will never be really your story, it has and always will be their story they wished to tell. You have the bonus of having choices within the framework of that story of theirs. You do not get all the things you want for $40-$60 unless you up that cost to investing $3million at which time you get the game you want your way without question. The $40-$60 only gets you what they created though you have input via feedback towards the title or the next one which they hope you enjoy. They choose the choices within their framework and sometimes you might not be happy with the choices they give but it has and always was their story to tell how they wanted to tell it.

This argument has been killed 100 times over by the free market. Soz.

You in for a surprise if you think in this situation my example is not accurate. If they choose to give you anything extra it will be their choice and the more threatening you are the more defensive they will get.

You have nothing new to say that hasn't been debunked, Nancyboy.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Question, OP...would you agree with me if I said that a piece of art that will later be sold - whether to one person or millions of people - can be regarded as a "commission?"

Different forms of art. From artists that pain or create a sculpture who will never change it for a customer because it is an expression of that artist and tends to make thousands or millions from it's sale "as is". To the backroom or office artist paid commission on request of a customer how the customer wants it. 

Further question. Do you think that Mass Effect 3, as a game and piece of art, was a "commission" based on the fact that the developers said themselves they wanted to customize it as much as they could for the fans...make it for the fans...based on fan feedback? They even went so far as to say they "co-developed ME3 with the fans." Do you think this means it is a "commission" vs. just something that an artist makes and then puts up for sale because he/she thinks it would sell?

[Dragoonlordz]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Question, OP...would you agree with me if I said that a piece of art that will later be sold - whether to one person or millions of people - can be regarded as a "commission?"

Different forms of art. From artists that pain or create a sculpture who will never change it for a customer because it is an expression of that artist and tends to make thousands or millions from it's sale "as is". To the backroom or office artist paid commission on request of a customer how the customer wants it. 

Further question. Do you think that Mass Effect 3, as a game and piece of art, was a "commission" based on the fact that the developers said themselves they wanted to customize it as much as they could for the fans...make it for the fans...based on fan feedback? They even went so far as to say they "co-developed ME3 with the fans." Do you think this means it is a "commission" vs. just something that an artist makes and then puts up for sale because he/she thinks it would sell?

Sorry go back reread my first post of which I responded to you as I was editing it which answers your later question at same time. I'll quote the second part instead. It was not a commission piece, they created the product they wished to create, allowed feedback but in the end it was their story they wanted to tell and hope people would like it.

Games are a mix of both but tilts more to the former because the game is created first and foremost with the developers intention and direction, the customer leaves ideas and feedback but they do not dictate the story the developer wishes to express and tell. Any freedom or changes to their art is up to the artist being developer in this case.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 mars 2012 - 08:20 .

[Lietuvis]

I paid 80 dollars, and If they wanted my respect, they would have answered us properly about the ending.

[Filby08]

If i had a dollar for everytime I facepalmed during this thread, I would have enough money to hire my own dev team to redo the endings.

True story.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Sorry go back reread my first post of which I responded to you as I was editing it which answers your later question at same time.

I would submit this to you, then:

Mass Effect, the original game, is an example of the developers creating a piece of art that they hope will catch the attention of the gaming public. It sets up the IP and the framework they can build on. I'll buy that.

However, in Mass Effect 3, BioWare told us that ME3 was co-created with the fans, and they have stated publicly on numerous occasions that they created it with the fans in mind. This means that it was not solely their direction anymore...it might not have been that they were creating it exactly as we wanted it, but they were trying very hard to make certain things happen based on our feedback. One of those items was "make our previous choices matter." BioWare said, "Okay, fans. Your previous choices will matter." Another item was, "we don't want to be bottlenecked like we were in ME2." BioWare said, "Don't worry fans, the story can now diverge into wildly different conclusions because we're no longer constrained by trying to weave plot threads through one story framework." (I'm paraphrasing here, bear with me.)

So, the fact that BioWare didn't hold up their end of the bargain in that regard isn't troubling at all? A developer that claimed to be taking fan concerns to heart and working with them to create their story...a developer that told us we wouldn't get A, B, and C endings, but gave them to us anyway? 

I respect an artist's creative vision. I really do. What I have a problem with here is that the developers promised us one thing, and gave us another. They promised closure and no unanswered questions, and decided - deliberately, if you've seen the "ME3 Final Hours" app - to keep us guessing. They promised us "wildly divergent endings" and we got three very similar endings with slight variations between them. 

I am a writer. If I write a piece for someone and I tell them I'm going to do one thing, but fail to do it, I fully expect them to come back to me and say, "Hey, this isn't the way you said it would be. I liked the sound of what you said you were gonna do, can you please do that?" I'd only be happy to oblige.

Plus, the minute you start selling sequels to anything - be it books, movies, more episodes of TV shows - you already have an invested fan base. They're  your bread and butter, and it's probably good business sense to keep them happy. Many fan campaigns have yielded a spectrum of results: Firefly (result, Serenity), Farscape (result, finale), Magnum PI, several books have had re-written endings (can't think of the examples off the top of my head, but they're floating around). It's happened before, it can happen again.

I do agree with you that there are people who are taking this too far. (The guy who took this to the US FTC is just...silly, in my opinion.) But by no means are we doing any of this in vain. 

[Omega Torsk]

MattFini wrote...

Another pro-ending person posts another condescending thread that generalizes thousands of people.

Nothing else to see here.