46 réponses à ce sujet

[ComTrav]

I'm talking about Alistair's so-called 'hardening' quest. Why is Goldana so uniquely powerful and important over him that this is my sole opportunity?

How come, if I want Alistair to go through his coming-of-age story, I need to say, "Wow, your sister was a $$$$$!"? How come such a thing makes him more willing to embrace his claim to the throne, and makes him a stronger king in the end?

How come father figure Arl Eamon saying "You'll be a good King, Alistair" doesn't do a thing? How come the player character (best friend or even love interest) saying the same thing doesn't make a difference? (Even with dialogue options like, "You won't need my help, Alistair," once you pick him for king.)

How come going on a country-spanning adventure to gather allies and stop the Blight doesn't make a difference?

I have a hard time understanding this.

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, it is rather silly that one sentence changes a man, while nothing else does.

[Walina]

Well, I think his side quest was not well written, I mean when you go out of the house after meeting Goldana.



Alistair is heart borken at this moment and saying "you should do the same, think about yourself first" felt really out of space.



I would've prefered something like : "If you want to change things, you've to take your responsabilities".

[Axterix]

Alistair is focused on family. Much of his bitterness, why he hides behind jokes, is because of issues with family. His actual father never acknowledged him. The new father figure, Arl Aemon, wound up shipping him off to the chantry after his wife nagged him a bunch and made the place hell for Alistair. And then he gets Duncan and the warders, who all die.



So he decides to go look for sister, some actual blood family. And she treats him like complete and utter crap, only interested in him if he has money.



Basically, Alistair is very vulnerable to anything family related, and this is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[Hunter246]

Alistair is too sensitive lol thats why when you make right dialog he decides he had enough of people pushing him around the change is hardly noticeable till the end though.

[Walina]

Hunter246 wrote...

Alistair is too sensitive lol thats why when you make right dialog he decides he had enough of people pushing him around the change is hardly noticeable till the end though.

That's too bad, I hope it change with a female PC :\\

[Recidiva]

I think this is a very clumsy part of the story. I find it impossible to believe that someone who encountered broodmothers, watched Harrowings and had to kill young girls, fed tainted blood to people and stood by while those who failed the test of courage were murdered...gets all broken up because his sister yelled at him.

First time through I didn't particularly care other than to say "You have other people that care for you" and that's the end of it.  I didn't see how it mattered in the big scheme, but it just seems some of the writers really are attached to psych 101 stereotypes.

Modifié par Recidiva, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:36 .

[Hunter246]

he does change with female pc it's the same only at end you notice difference if you already played when he not hardened oh he also stops saying your desire is my command all the time lol.

[Recidiva]

Hunter246 wrote...

he does change with female pc it's the same only at end you notice difference if you already played when he not hardened oh he also stops saying your desire is my command all the time lol.

I hated that. ><  Damn you and your voice, Steve Valentine!

Also, I just hate being called "my dear."  I really do.  The two greetings were enough to make me not want to harden him up just to keep that one line out of play.

Either that or just never talk to him again.  *sigh*

[Walina]

Recidiva wrote...

I think this is a very clumsy part of the story. I find it impossible to believe that someone who encountered broodmothers, watched Harrowings and had to kill young girls, fed tainted blood to people and stood by while those who failed the test of courage were murdered...gets all broken up because his sister yelled at him.

First time through I didn't particularly care other than to say "You have other people that care for you" and that's the end of it.  I didn't see how it mattered in the big scheme, but it just seems some of the writers really are attached to psych 101 stereotypes.

It didn't felt out of space in my plot because I began with Redcliff so it was all about zombies nothing too bad.
But you've to understand, most pf the dialogs in this game do not involve what characters are fighting, there is 0 impact on their dialogs so that's not the fault of character but of writers. :innocent:

[themaxzero]

I think its more the final straw.

[Hunter246]

redcliff got taken over i started quest then went to Alistair sisters next thing i know there nobody in redcliff lol when i return.

[Walina]

Hunter246 wrote...

redcliff got taken over i started quest then went to Alistair sisters next thing i know there nobody in redcliff lol when i return.

[Recidiva]

But you've to understand, most pf the dialogs in this game do not involve what characters are fighting, there is 0 impact on their dialogs so that's not the fault of character but of writers.

Well, the Harrowing and his upbringing and the Joining ceremonies happen before you even meet Alistair.  It's just incredibly incongruous to me to have a character who does so well in battle and takes it in humorous stride.  The humor is written so well I never got the chance to pick up on the incongruent insecurities.  I was so busy cracking jokes I made it through the first game never even asking him how he felt about being king and assuming he was joking about his disdain for the idea.  Genuinely shocked when he doesn't see the inherent utility to being in a position to command armies.  Wasn't that...the point?

I really thought he was going to warn her about the Blight, which was what he said he wanted to do.  I do notice he never does that.  At least my dwarf got to tell her she needed her tongue cut out.

[Naturalus]

ComTrav wrote...

I'm talking about Alistair's so-called 'hardening' quest. Why is Goldana so uniquely powerful and important over him that this is my sole opportunity?

How come, if I want Alistair to go through his coming-of-age story, I need to say, "Wow, your sister was a $$$$$!"? How come such a thing makes him more willing to embrace his claim to the throne, and makes him a stronger king in the end?

How come father figure Arl Eamon saying "You'll be a good King, Alistair" doesn't do a thing? How come the player character (best friend or even love interest) saying the same thing doesn't make a difference? (Even with dialogue options like, "You won't need my help, Alistair," once you pick him for king.)

How come going on a country-spanning adventure to gather allies and stop the Blight doesn't make a difference?

I have a hard time understanding this.

You mean that Alistair wants to come king becouse you made his companion quest? You made something important for him by giving him chance to meet his sister that he has never meet in his life so he likes you more and you can persuade him to be king. I dont understand what is so hard here.

Modifié par Naturalus, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[TcheQ]

Alistair entire story is coming into connection with his past, and your character understanding his cloister with the templars.  If you took him with you to the SLoth Demons plane in the Fade, you understand what he thought Goldanna was going to be like (he thought meeting here would be a dream come true).  meeting her he realises that blood is not as important as he thought, and that his ideals he has held are vastly different to reality.

His connection to Arl Eamon is strengthened and finding the locket of his mother means he will understand that Eamon thought much more of him than he realised i.e. he has expectations to live up to. 

When you meet him Alistair is a weak, weak character, with nothing sustaining his life except the service in the Grey Wardens - a reason he becomes SO upset at Riordan's suggestion to recruit Loghain.

[Axterix]

Naturalus wrote...

You mean that Alistair wants to come king becouse you made his companion quest? You made something important for him by giving him chance to meet his sister that he has never meet in his life so he likes you more and you can persuade him to be king. I dont understand what is so hard here.

It isn't meeting his sister that does it, but rather, one specific line after meeting his sister. 

You can always persuade him to be king, the difference is, with that line, he actually wants to be king, he becomes more assertive, quits being the directionless tag along he is all the rest of the time (well, outside of the Kill Loghain, off to be a drunk temper tantrum).

Modifié par Axterix, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

Naturalus wrote...

You mean that Alistair wants to come king becouse you made his companion quest? You made something important for him by giving him chance to meet his sister that he has never meet in his life so he likes you more and you can persuade him to be king. I dont understand what is so hard here.

It is that just doing the quest does not mean that he'd be a good king. You need to tell him that everybody looks out for themselves at the end. You can still persuade him to become king, but he wont be a good one.

Edit: Ninja'd

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:58 .

[Hunter246]

What most people seem to do is skip dialog these are important to understand the characters properly also codex explains stuff too.

[Recidiva]

You mean that Alistair wants to come king becouse you made his companion quest? You made something important for him by giving him chance to meet his sister that he has never meet in his life so he likes you more and you can persuade him to be king. I dont understand what is so hard here.

It's not doing the quest, really.  It's that you have to tell him that "everyone is out for themselves" which makes me kinda sick as a "good" person.  Everyone isn't.  Some people are.  I wasn't, but in order to keep him from imploding, you have to say it if you want the best outcome for Ferelden.  He needs to learn to judge by individual character and not appearance.  By having to say that for plot expediency, I get angry.

It's again, something clumsy that realy violates my sense of "good."

It's just as "good" to be true to the person you love and the companions you trust, become a king, a good king, and a just king, with reason and all that.  You don't have to lose your romance or your heart or stop thinking about other people. 

Just stop judging by what story books say or the chantry says.  Use your brain.  Or use MY brain, I'll stick around.  Maker!

[Walina]

That's strange, I had the chance to ask him twice about his feelings. I know, it's not a lot.
Like I said, the personality of the character is good but writers didn't made enough options.
I heard in Baldur gate 2, you could've a deeper relationship with the girls.

1) I don't know where did you get the bad idea about Alistair being bad in battle O.o

2) Alistair is a novice, it's fact, he've always been puted aside from battles because of Duncan. So, you can conclude, he truly began to fight Darspawn with you in my opinion.

3) I love his jokes, like Zevran, they both joke a lot.

4) Alistair always told you, he never wanted to be king and his voice actor is not joking about it french. I am certain because I spend the last hours of reloading my save and you can read here what I found out : http://social.biowar...ssion/1799/&p=5

5) Yu can ask him at camp just before the Landmeet about who gonna be king in private talk because i could tel him that I will support Anora, he even tell you at Landmeet when you ask him, that he doesn't want to be king.

p.s : look I am not defending Alistair that it's right for him to be like that but it doesn't fit him at all to be king if you do not harden him, it's a fact. With my new playthrough, I hardened him and I was happy to found out that he is willing now to take his responsabilities and prolly be king. Blame writers :innocent:

Modifié par Walina, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:04 .

[Recidiva]

Hunter246 wrote...

What most people seem to do is skip dialog these are important to understand the characters properly also codex explains stuff too.

Well, for me I missed a lot because many options only come up ONCE and are accompanied by lots of other options.

My first play through I didn't manage to gather enough information because I missed the opportunity in several places due to asking other, relevant questions.

Took several play throughs, saving before going to camp, and going through the options before I figured out which were serious, which were relevant, which were jokes, and what questions you absolutely need to ask if you want information.

I had to read spoilers to see that Alistair's personality could be hardened and you have to say the ONE THING that seems the least loving, the least supportive, and the least intuitive.

I was very disappointed to see that being supportive and being loving and making good choices and assuming that the "toughening up" comes from everyone's origin stories and they have a brain and a heart and can use both...is trumped by clumsy stereotype.

[Herr Uhl]

Walina wrote...

p.s : look I am not defending Alistair that it's right for him to be like that but it doesn't fit him at all to be king if you do not harden him, it's a fact. With my new playthrough, I hardened him and I was happy to found out that he is willing now to take his responsabilities and prolly be king.

It is still not a complaint that a hardened king is better than an unhardened one.

It is that the only way to make him to become hardened is saying that his sister is a **** and everybody looks out for themselves. Nothing else than that makes any impact on him, no discussion, no act and not even having a glorious mustache.

[Hunter246]

Well he never wanted to be king in first place so i makes sense hardening him make him and better king more because he tiered of people pushing him around and want to show people he can do it.

[Recidiva]

Walina wrote...

That's strange, I had the chance to ask him twice about his feelings. I know, it's not a lot.
Like I said, the personality of the character is good but writers didn't made enough options.
I heard in Baldur gate 2, you could've a deeper relationship with the girls.

1) I don't know where did you get the bad idea about Alistair being bad in battle O.o

2) Alistair is a novice, it's fact, he've always been puted aside from battles because of Duncan. So, you can conclude, he truly began to fight Darspawn with you in my opinion.

3) I love his jokes, like Zevran, they both joke a lot.

4) Alistair always told you, he never wanted to be king and his voice actor is not joking about it french. I am certain because I spend the last hours of reloading my save and you can read here what I found out : http://social.biowar...ssion/1799/&p=5

5) Yu can ask him at camp just before the Landmeet about who gonna be king in private talk because i could tel him that I will support Anora, he even tell you at Landmeet when you ask him, that he doesn't want to be king.

p.s : look I am not defending Alistair that it's right for him to be like that but it doesn't fit him at all to be king if you do not harden him, it's a fact. With my new playthrough, I hardened him and I was happy to found out that he is willing now to take his responsabilities and prolly be king. Blame writers

At the first Landsmeet I did ask Alistair, he gave me two contradictory answers - "Make Anora king!"  and "NO!!  Don't make her king, she betrayed us!" 

He says he doesn't want to be king, but hell, I didn't want to lose my families and fight darkspawn either.  I was assuming that "not wanting" to do something doesn't mean that you won't do it.  Also, half the time he's joking about "Me?  LEAD?  No, no no...etc...without any pants!"   In game context that could just mean he's deferirng to my leadership and making me comfortable about it.

In further playthroughs I've made Anora queen, but she seriously screws the Alienage.  For Ferelden I have to toughen him up and make him King and he's a good one.

Even at the end, I kid you not, I've gone through the entire tree of possible answers if you don't take Morrigan's deal and if you bring him with you.  A tree of 17 different options and they all lead the same place.  Some with a kiss as the only deviation from script.  I have a chart.  Yes, I was worked up on the subject. 

He'll sacrifice himself for these reasons:

He'll say Anora will be a better ruler (but she won't.)
He'll say he was punishing Loghain but not Anora. (who cares)
He won't be a good king (he will)
He says this is the best king he could be (no, ******, let me take the final blow, go be a good King.)

So the best "good" ending is to toughen Alistair up, make him want to be king, he'll be a good king, and then if you're female and in love, don't take Morrigan's deal and don't take him along on the final battle so you can take the final blow.

Seems so much easier if I could just tell him that on the roof, but that's not possible, I have to work the game instead.