613 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

I think most of us, whther we think the end represents a dream or it's something that really happens agrees that the Reaper childs basic premises, that there must be a "final solution" to an inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic life is both deeply flawed and counter to the theme of the rest of the series, and one of the most serious gripes about the end is that they aren't allowed to let Shepard argue that point with the Reaper child, but instead are railroaded into accepting it's premises and chose one of the seemingly arbitrary RGB solutions.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Maimh wrote...

RShara wrote...

To kill the organic life that is capable of creating synthetic life.
They leave the yahg alone, for example, even though they are sapient.

No, what I meant was, does the Reapers think that synthetic life would destroy all organic life, down to last bacteria, Or only sapient life?

Catalyst says all organic life, but that is open to interpretation. What we can assume is that they wouldn't care about their methods; maybe they would just nuke every planet capable of producing life so that they can never be threatened in case an organic ever evolved.

[Calenardon258]

I think someone already posted that, but I can't find it anymore, and it seems to fit perfectly in this thread :

docs.google.com/document/d/1QT4IUepvrU1pfv_B95oQj0H84DlCTUmzQ_uQh1voTUs/preview

[RShara]

Sorry, it's very late here and I need to sleep. I'm saying CULLING isn't a valid analogy because they are not breeding to eliminating or encourage for specific traits. Yes, they are trying to remove a certain level of technology.

[JeosDinas]

RShara wrote...
But then they shape the evolving races into the exact same traits that they wiped out last time.

Because they know the trait they wish to reinforce (and indeed do reinforce by leaving behind specific technologies). And they also know the length of time and the extent to which they wish that trait to be in the population.

RShara wrote...Yes, they are trying to remove a certain level of technology.

 

Defined loosely, this is a trait. It certainly is in terms of demographics.

Modifié par JeosDinas, 18 mars 2012 - 01:13 .

[cyric085]

even if the ending has more plotholes than swiss cheese, the reaper motivation is quite logic.

they preserve the dna of a species in reaperform to prevent their total extinction by a true AI that may or may not let all organics live.

its a Preemptive war just like the irak war was and the iran war will be later this year.

[Kanon777]

Is the child/reapers an AI (like EDI) or VI (Like Avina)? I dont think that was ever confirmed. I

If its proven that they are VIs it helps even more the case that its not just synthetic vs organics, but VI made to save organics from AIs

[piemanz]

RShara wrote...

piemanz wrote...

RShara wrote...

JeosDinas wrote...

RShara wrote...Also doesn't meet the definition of what the Reapers are doing, since they are not breeding or trying for some specific criteria .

Your latter statement is actually false here. The specific criteria is not biological in this case, but technological. Furthermore, you're fundamentally ignoring that the goal is, to all intents and purposes, population stabilization. Which is very often the goal of state hunting regulations (as opposed to, say, a more eugenics/farming based goal of controlling traits in the the population). But even then, the Reaper's actions also are done to ensure specifical traits are present and others are not. These things are simply, again, not measured biologically.

Specifically, culling doesn't apply because they are not looking for any specific criteria in the races they hunt to be preserved.  They wipe the slate clean.
They're also not trying to control a population, but wipe it clean.

It's more of a technological cull.

Culling is the process of removing breeding animals from a group
based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain
desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable
characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife alike, culling usually implies the killing of the removed animals .

The undisireable charactaristic being the thechnologcal advancement that leads to the creation of synthetics. Leaving the non advanced races to evolve.

But then they shape the evolving races into the exact same traits that they wiped out last time.

They don't shape them, it's more a case of the advanced races will eventually find the relays and use the citadel, essentially making them reliant on Reaper tachnology and making them easier to monitor, and cull.  The fact they rely so heavily on Reaper tech is kind of shaping them because only the areas with relays will be populated.

Modifié par piemanz, 18 mars 2012 - 01:16 .

[Golden_Boy187]

For the reapers "the end justifies the means" Humans & organics must "Evolve or die' and ascend into another form of enlighten being. In the end the salvation of all humans & organic life depend on these god like aliens saving us from our mistakes. New Age much! LOOL

[Genera1Nemesis]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think most of us, whther we think the end represents a dream or it's something that really happens agrees that the Reaper childs basic premises, that there must be a "final solution" to an inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic life is both deeply flawed and counter to the theme of the rest of the series, and one of the most serious gripes about the end is that they aren't allowed to let Shepard argue that point with the Reaper child, but instead are railroaded into accepting it's premises and chose one of the seemingly arbitrary RGB solutions.

But if it is deeply flawed then any other sci-fi movie or book that deals with the same criteria (Terminators Skynet etc.) would be just silly by that rationale, and in that we only created ONE AI, or synthetic lifeform that came to the same conclusion that Catalyst has.

So in Mass Effect we see this pattern actually begin when Cerberus starts building homicidal AI; when the Heretics CHOSE to join Sovereign to kill organics in an effort to gain technology form the 'old machines' (which legion poited out they were wrong in believing the Reapers were AI; they were organic minds in synthetic outer shells)

[RShara]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think most of us, whther we think the end represents a dream or it's something that really happens agrees that the Reaper childs basic premises, that there must be a "final solution" to an inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic life is both deeply flawed and counter to the theme of the rest of the series, and one of the most serious gripes about the end is that they aren't allowed to let Shepard argue that point with the Reaper child, but instead are railroaded into accepting it's premises and chose one of the seemingly arbitrary RGB solutions.

I think I'll need to leave the argument to you and get some sleep.  GL!

[Sir_Alric]

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

On Noveria, ME1, the Rachni Queen herself explained to Shepard they had no desire to go to war against other species, but "a voice from the space" (probably Sovereign's) "disrupted their chants" (aka indoctrinated them) and made them fight the other species.

[RShara]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think most of us, whther we think the end represents a dream or it's something that really happens agrees that the Reaper childs basic premises, that there must be a "final solution" to an inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic life is both deeply flawed and counter to the theme of the rest of the series, and one of the most serious gripes about the end is that they aren't allowed to let Shepard argue that point with the Reaper child, but instead are railroaded into accepting it's premises and chose one of the seemingly arbitrary RGB solutions.

But if it is deeply flawed then any other sci-fi movie or book that deals with the same criteria (Terminators Skynet etc.) would be just silly by that rationale, and in that we only created ONE AI, or synthetic lifeform that came to the same conclusion that Catalyst has.

So in Mass Effect we see this pattern actually begin when Cerberus starts building homicidal AI; when the Heretics CHOSE to join Sovereign to kill organics in an effort to gain technology form the 'old machines' (which legion poited out they were wrong in believing the Reapers were AI; they were organic minds in synthetic outer shells)

The diff being that people didn't expect anything out of Terminator or many other movies, other than something to eat popcorn over.  Hollywood has lots of movies with deeply flawed premises, that go beyond suspension of disbelief  (Okay, I'll believe in dragons.  But dragons are like fish.  What?)

I expected ME to have a conclusive ending that didn't have all these points that could be questioned endlessly, without either side ever convincing the other.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Sir_Alric wrote...

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

On Noveria, ME1, the Rachni Queen herself explained to Shepard they had no desire to go to war against other species, but "a voice from the space" (probably Sovereign's) "disrupted their chants" (aka indoctrinated them) and made them fight the other species.

It was indeed Sovereign, and it was never explained why he did this. Maybe to slow down the advancement of the other species?

[Ranicus56]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

A general can clain to 'control'
his army, but that doesn't mean that he programs them either. Catalyst
may be just the one who gave them their orders; their purpose. Whe you
talk to Soverign or Harbinger did they seem like a 'controlled'
organism? No, they just seemed to be very fanatical in their devotion to
their cause.

There are what millions of minds in the reapers, with different opinions. How do you get them all to join the cause. Some would be sad/enraged about the reapers plans and what they've done. Maybe their all indoctrinated? Did they become one mind? Who knows.


Edit: had to fix my post, the quote's buged out. Lol

Modifié par Ranicus56, 18 mars 2012 - 01:23 .

[RShara]

Sir_Alric wrote...

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

On Noveria, ME1, the Rachni Queen herself explained to Shepard they had no desire to go to war against other species, but "a voice from the space" (probably Sovereign's) "disrupted their chants" (aka indoctrinated them) and made them fight the other species.

Yep already smacked myself for that

[JeosDinas]

RShara wrote...
I expected ME to have a conclusive ending that didn't have all these points that could be questioned endlessly, without either side ever convincing the other.

Then the failing is on your part.

[Genera1Nemesis]

RShara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think most of us, whther we think the end represents a dream or it's something that really happens agrees that the Reaper childs basic premises, that there must be a "final solution" to an inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic life is both deeply flawed and counter to the theme of the rest of the series, and one of the most serious gripes about the end is that they aren't allowed to let Shepard argue that point with the Reaper child, but instead are railroaded into accepting it's premises and chose one of the seemingly arbitrary RGB solutions.

But if it is deeply flawed then any other sci-fi movie or book that deals with the same criteria (Terminators Skynet etc.) would be just silly by that rationale, and in that we only created ONE AI, or synthetic lifeform that came to the same conclusion that Catalyst has.

So in Mass Effect we see this pattern actually begin when Cerberus starts building homicidal AI; when the Heretics CHOSE to join Sovereign to kill organics in an effort to gain technology form the 'old machines' (which legion poited out they were wrong in believing the Reapers were AI; they were organic minds in synthetic outer shells)

The diff being that people didn't expect anything out of Terminator or many other movies, other than something to eat popcorn over.  Hollywood has lots of movies with deeply flawed premises, that go beyond suspension of disbelief  (Okay, I'll believe in dragons.  But dragons are like fish.  What?)

I expected ME to have a conclusive ending that didn't have all these points that could be questioned endlessly, without either side ever convincing the other.

But that's just it; we see not just one but mutiple AI lifeforms come to the conclusion that killing organics in the name of self-preservation is a good idea.

[RShara]

JeosDinas wrote...

RShara wrote...
I expected ME to have a conclusive ending that didn't have all these points that could be questioned endlessly, without either side ever convincing the other.

Then the failing is on your part.

Okay, on this one, wtf?
I had expectations that were directly due to dev quotes, and the failing is on MY part?  Excuse me?
We've been having such a reasonable conversation until now.  Why are we devolving suddenly into personal insults?

[Genera1Nemesis]

[quote]Ranicus56 wrote...

[/quote]

A general can clain to 'control' his army, but that doesn't mean that he programs them either. Catalyst may be just the one who gave them their orders; their purpose. Whe you talk to Soverign or Harbinger did they seem like a 'controlled' organism? No, they just seemed to be very fanatical in their devotion to their cause.

[/quote]

There are what millions of minds in the reapers, with different opinions. How do you get them all to join the cause. Some would be sad/enraged about the reapers plans and what they've done. Maybe their all indoctrinated? Did they become one mind? Who knows.

[/quote]

But what if, and a big what if mind you; that once these minds see the 'bigger picture' they all come to that same conclusion. Like I said they behave more like fanatics than anything.

[Balmung31]

As Thane said if you brought him on Legion's loyalty mission,

"There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the heretics are, you've killed them."

[JeosDinas]

RShara wrote...Okay, on this one, wtf?
I had expectations that were directly due to dev quotes, and the failing is on MY part?  Excuse me?
We've been having such a reasonable conversation until now.  Why are we devolving suddenly into personal insults?

You misunderstand me if you think that was meant as an insult. The point is that your expecations might have been lead one way or another by others but only you truly control what those expectations actually are. No one truly made you think any certain thing beside yourself.

[Genera1Nemesis]

JeosDinas wrote...

RShara wrote...Okay, on this one, wtf?
I had expectations that were directly due to dev quotes, and the failing is on MY part?  Excuse me?
We've been having such a reasonable conversation until now.  Why are we devolving suddenly into personal insults?

You misunderstand me if you think that was meant as an insult. The point is that your expecations might have been lead one way or another by others but only you truly control what those expectations actually are. No one truly made you think any certain thing beside yourself.

This is true. When I played ME1 I never expected what Sovereign turned out to be....never assume anything when it comes to Bioware, lol.

Remember in KOTOR when you found out who your character really was....mind....blown....

[RShara]

okay, so my failing was that I didn't magically know that the devs lied through their teeth, and that I should have expected this series that I love(d?) would awe me as much as it has in the past.

Okay, I'm going to bed.

[Genera1Nemesis]

RShara wrote...

okay, so my failing was that I didn't magically know that the devs lied through their teeth, and that I should have expected this series that I love(d?) would awe me as much as it has in the past.

Okay, I'm going to bed.

How did they lie? You fought AI throughout the series in numerous main quests and side missions.