613 réponses à ce sujet

[Maimh]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Maimh wrote...

RShara wrote...

To kill the organic life that is capable of creating synthetic life.
They leave the yahg alone, for example, even though they are sapient.

No, what I meant was, does the Reapers think that synthetic life would destroy all organic life, down to last bacteria, Or only sapient life?

Catalyst says all organic life, but that is open to interpretation. What we can assume is that they wouldn't care about their methods; maybe they would just nuke every planet capable of producing life so that they can never be threatened in case an organic ever evolved.

But all organic life? Even grass or lichen? Amobias? That would indicate a rather extreem case of paranoia, that I simply cannot get behind as an unavoidable scenario.

[Atkara]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But what if, and a big what if mind you; that once these minds see the 'bigger picture' they all come to that same conclusion. Like I said they behave more like fanatics than anything.

Fanatics, or simply protecting themselves against the 'x' sentient organic race, advanced enough to find them in dark space, threaten and destroy them.

That's what the Reapers do, in my opinion. Preemptive strikes so that nobody will be in position to threaten them, and providing themselves the means to reproduce, assimilate new ideas and get what they perceive as a soul.

What the Catalyst offers, is another form of "Ascension". Instead of storing Organic races in Reaper form, store the Reapers inside Organic form. An "ascension" nobody really asked for.

[JeosDinas]

RShara wrote...

okay, so my failing was that I didn't magically know that the devs lied through their teeth, and that I should have expected this series that I love(d?) would awe me as much as it has in the past.

Not really. I'd say it's more like you made certain assumptions about the content of what you'd be given that didn't match up in the end to what you recieved. For instance, if you took a mention about getting answers about a certain thing or closure to Shepard's arc, you likely internalized those statements to align with your desires so much that failure to meet your specific idea of what those things were was bound to gravely upset you.

[RShara]

I meant my expectations of ME being my failing because the devs promised this conclusion that would close all the gaps and resolve the big questions and.....
Ugh nevermind. Okay, I'm giving up. Goodnight, on to other threads.

[Ranicus56]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But what if, and a big what if mind you; that once these minds see the 'bigger picture' they all come to that same conclusion. Like I said they behave more like fanatics than anything.

Maybe, 50,000 years is a long time to argue. I myself would most likely give in. Hmm i wonder if reapers kill the ones that don't go for it?

[eddieoctane]

111987 wrote...

It should be "Create synthetics to harvest/kill space-faring organics to make sure other synthetics don't kill ALL organics."

There is a difference. It's still a horrific plan, but it's not as 'retarded' as you're suggesting.

No, it is. It is balls-to-the-wall insane. I'll explain.

The starchild says that "synthesis" is the eventual course of evolution. However, a fusion of synthetic and organic cannot occur without first bringing synthetic life into being. The Reapers stated goal--according to the starchild, at least--is to prevent organic life from creating sythetic life, as synthetic life will wipe out organics. See the problem there? You can't glue somethign to nothing. If you make sure that nothign stays nothing, why even have the bottle of glue? Just to make a mess out of everything? Maybe to eat some or get high off the fumes? I mean, he is just a starchild. Maybe we should get him a helmet to wear around all the time.

[piemanz]

RShara wrote...

okay, so my failing was that I didn't magically know that the devs lied through their teeth, and that I should have expected this series that I love(d?) would awe me as much as it has in the past.

Okay, I'm going to bed.

They were deffinatly disingenuous, but they promised multiple endings and delivered something like 17. So, while they may not differ from eachother all that much, the expectation that each ending would be radicly different was yours.

But i do agree that Bioware was not entirley truthful and very missleading with their marketing.

Modifié par piemanz, 18 mars 2012 - 01:32 .

[Luigitornado]

If you don't get it, then think harder about it.

[Ranicus56]

Atkara wrote...

Fanatics, or simply protecting themselves against the 'x' sentient organic race, advanced enough to find them in dark space, threaten and destroy them.

That's what the Reapers do, in my opinion. Preemptive strikes so that nobody will be in position to threaten them, and providing themselves the means to reproduce, assimilate new ideas and get what they perceive as a soul.

What the Catalyst offers, is another form of "Ascension". Instead of storing Organic races in Reaper form, store the Reapers inside Organic form. An "ascension" nobody really asked for.

Good point on the last bit.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Ranicus56 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

But what if, and a big what if mind you; that once these minds see the 'bigger picture' they all come to that same conclusion. Like I said they behave more like fanatics than anything.

Maybe, 50,000 years is a long time to argue. I myself would most likely give in. Hmm i wonder if reapers kill the ones that don't go for it?

They do turn the unworthy into husks and such, so who knows...to me it's like ants trying to understand people; and we are the ants.

[Genera1Nemesis]

AS Vigil said on Ilos: "In the end it does not matter if you understand them; only that you defeat them."

[Atkara]

Ranicus56 wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Fanatics, or simply protecting themselves against the 'x' sentient organic race, advanced enough to find them in dark space, threaten and destroy them.

That's what the Reapers do, in my opinion. Preemptive strikes so that nobody will be in position to threaten them, and providing themselves the means to reproduce, assimilate new ideas and get what they perceive as a soul.

What the Catalyst offers, is another form of "Ascension". Instead of storing Organic races in Reaper form, store the Reapers inside Organic form. An "ascension" nobody really asked for.

Good point on the last bit.

Now, read the rest of it, having in mind that self preservation is also in the Reapers' agenda

[Dessalines]

This thread wasn't created, when I posted on the other thread, but I will repost here.
. I am not an all knowing star child, but would it not be easier to just kill synethitc creatures every 50,000 years.
I don't think you have to keep doing it either. I think if you leave the older species around to tell the younger species, if you build synethics, machines will kill them, species would get the point.
Honestly, if the Reapers destroyed only a few planets, and told them not to build or stop building synthetics or they would continue to wipe them off the galaxy, I think people would have gotten the message.. A bunch of older species stating if you buid synthetic life , we will destroy you, before everyone is destroyed by the Reapers would have been a great deterrant..

[zsom]

MrGPhantome wrote...

I just want everyone to absorb the title of the thread... and realize how insanely retarded that is.

That's the ending in a nutshell dipped in dog ****.

Please don't praise this premise of a story.

Wrong. The reapers were meant to save organics by harvesting them before they are wiped out by their creations. They would live on as a reaper.

It was even hinted at by Harbi I think:
"We are your salvation through destruction"

[Ranicus56]

Well i guess no matter how much we try to understand it, only bioware can tell us. But i don't think they will.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Atkara wrote...

Ranicus56 wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Fanatics, or simply protecting themselves against the 'x' sentient organic race, advanced enough to find them in dark space, threaten and destroy them.

That's what the Reapers do, in my opinion. Preemptive strikes so that nobody will be in position to threaten them, and providing themselves the means to reproduce, assimilate new ideas and get what they perceive as a soul.

What the Catalyst offers, is another form of "Ascension". Instead of storing Organic races in Reaper form, store the Reapers inside Organic form. An "ascension" nobody really asked for.

Good point on the last bit.

Now, read the rest of it, having in mind that self preservation is also in the Reapers' agenda

I agree with you; and I've said it in other threads that Sovereign acted pre-emptively when he saw what was going on in the galaxy; the Geth were building their hub thingy near Rannoch, Cerberus was doing all kinds of crazy experiments and so on. Should an AI ever advance themselves too fast they could possibly hack into the Citadel and shut down their grand scheme, or hack into every ship and shut them down (like that one in a ME 1 sidequest)

[Golden_Boy187]

Dessalines wrote...

This thread wasn't created, when I posted on the other thread, but I will repost here.
. I am not an all knowing star child, but would it not be easier to just kill synethitc creatures every 50,000 years.
I don't think you have to keep doing it either. I think if you leave the older species around to tell the younger species, if you build synethics, machines will kill them, species would get the point.
Honestly, if the Reapers destroyed only a few planets, and told them not to build or stop building synthetics or they would continue to wipe them off the galaxy, I think people would have gotten the message.. A bunch of older species stating if you buid synthetic life , we will destroy you, before everyone is destroyed by the Reapers would have been a great deterrant..

i thought the same thing.

[Genera1Nemesis]

zsom wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

I just want everyone to absorb the title of the thread... and realize how insanely retarded that is.

That's the ending in a nutshell dipped in dog ****.

Please don't praise this premise of a story.

Wrong. The reapers were meant to save organics by harvesting them before they are wiped out by their creations. They would live on as a reaper.

It was even hinted at by Harbi I think:
"We are your salvation through destruction"

Or even better quote "We are your genetic destiny."

[Genera1Nemesis]

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

This thread wasn't created, when I posted on the other thread, but I will repost here.
. I am not an all knowing star child, but would it not be easier to just kill synethitc creatures every 50,000 years.
I don't think you have to keep doing it either. I think if you leave the older species around to tell the younger species, if you build synethics, machines will kill them, species would get the point.
Honestly, if the Reapers destroyed only a few planets, and told them not to build or stop building synthetics or they would continue to wipe them off the galaxy, I think people would have gotten the message.. A bunch of older species stating if you buid synthetic life , we will destroy you, before everyone is destroyed by the Reapers would have been a great deterrant..

i thought the same thing.

Think about the implications of them doing that;

Reapers show up and destroy the synthetics. Organics are chaotic by nature and don't know what created them.Enter this crazy being that built the Citadel and the relays; some or many organics might view them as the 'creators' regardless of whether they told us different. Cycle continues; created rebels against created.


Plus, would a warning stop the Illusive man?

Modifié par Genera1Nemesis, 18 mars 2012 - 01:43 .

[JPVS]

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

[dreman9999]

I'm posting this because I see allot people don't seem
to understand the reaper point of their ideal. That the idea of destroying us
so we can’t hurt ourselves and make AI that kill us off makes no sense.



But It does make sense.... Yes, that statement isn't clear
but I can explain it...The idea is truly alien to one of us and when you get
it...It will horrify you and you'll want to stop the reapers even more.



It's based on the concepts of being alive and
living. To us being alive means having an ego. This is built by having a
perspective, a form of comprehension, memories and an active ability to learn
and develop oneself. When that is gone, to us the person is dead. Take for
example brain death, the persons body is still alive but everything that  identifys
that person is gone forever, meaning that person is dead to us..



Now the first thing to understand about the
reapers is that they think like machines. For a machine, if apart is damage,
they simply replace the damage parts. To a machine, a brain dead person is
still alive; they just need to replace the brain with something similar. What ever
the person was before is irrelevant to them.



Add to this reapers feel organics are flawed. They
feel that they are chaotic and unable to see there own self destruction that
their so called beliefs cause. To a reaper, individuality on the level we have
is a flaw. Added, they don't want to kill us. They want to stop us from destroying
ourselves. So the reapers “fix" the one flaw they think we have, our individuality...The
thing that gives us a soul. Our cells and parts of our body still living but our individuality
is dead and gone. Our race never dies off because our genetic detail is still
living, but everything that made our race the way it is, our individuality, our
culture, and our beliefs are gone.



The whole idea is to protect organics form destroying
themselves and keep order. This includes stopping from organics from being destroyed by their
own self made AI. They also see what they are doing to us like a person see the concept of
weeding a garden. They are taking us out so other beings can grow and
develop as well, and they are doing it in a way that organics stay alive but
the individuality of the organics are dead.



And that what's so horrifying about the ideal is
there's some truth to it but I would never want to be taken to that extreme to
be preserved.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

[JPVS]

But the Catalyst in an AI, not a Reaper. He created the Reapers, but it is still an AI.

[BiO]

For the love of Space Jesus Shepard, the Reapers are not synthetics.

JPVS wrote...

But the Catalyst in an AI, not a Reaper. He created the Reapers, but it is still an AI.

Proof?

Modifié par BiO_MaN, 18 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Atkara]

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

When you have a Crucible docked & ready to fire, a single organic life form that managed to get inside an unguarded Citadel and the realization that, if this happened once, it can and will happen again, you start negotiating alternatives