613 réponses à ce sujet

[JPVS]

And even if the Reapers are synthetic, they have nothing more than calculus. No respect or honor whatsoever. So why bring an enemy to a position where he can destroy you? Logically, makes no sense.

[dreman9999]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

[Justicar]

Create controlled synthetics to preserve advanced organic life to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill all organic life.

[dreman9999]

JPVS wrote...

And even if the Reapers are synthetic, they have nothing more than calculus. No respect or honor whatsoever. So why bring an enemy to a position where he can destroy you? Logically, makes no sense.

Indorctriantion theaory.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

When you have a Crucible docked & ready to fire, a single organic life form that managed to get inside an unguarded Citadel and the realization that, if this happened once, it can and will happen again, you start negotiating alternatives

Exactly. Look up the definition of the word 'crucible'. It is a test. If organics can do those two things they were never able to do; have control over Citadel; build crucible; then do something equally difficult; combine the two; then Catalyst activates and needs to find another solution because it means the organics have passed the test, and could indeed find a way to stop the reapers which would be bad for all of us from their p.o.v.

[JPVS]

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Modifié par JPVS, 18 mars 2012 - 01:54 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

[dreman9999]

Justicar wrote...

Create controlled synthetics to preserve advanced organic life to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill all organic life.

Also, the make sure advance organic life does not crush primative organic life. And to stop Organic  life from killing themselves off.

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

[JPVS]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

They don't have millions of organic minds. They have millions of minds, yes, but mostly AI programs. If it were organic minds, there would be stuff like feelings. They have calculus and purpose, no other indication of otherwise.

[dreman9999]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

That doesn't mean they are organic. Just that they use a prossecing methon simlier to the geth. And he did not say the heretic were mistaken to thing they were AI. He just says he suspected organic were being turned into reapers.

[JPVS]

The catalyst did say he created the Reapers. Don't see a VI doing something like that, but that's just me.

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

They don't have millions of organic minds. They have millions of minds, yes, but mostly AI programs. If it were organic minds, there would be stuff like feelings. They have calculus and purpose, no other indication of otherwise.

They are fanatics yes; that doesn't mean they are AI. And they were given purpose by Catalyst; so in that we have the implication that all these organic minds had reached consensus about one thing; the cycle must continue at all cost.

[dreman9999]

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Indorctriantion theaory. 
 

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

The catalyst did say he created the Reapers. Don't see a VI doing something like that, but that's just me.

Catalyst was never explained properly so all we have are assumptions. Whoever built Catalyst may have programmed it to believe it created the reapers; or maybe it in of itself was a representative of that organic that created it; who knows; lol.

[Golden_Boy187]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

This thread wasn't created, when I posted on the other thread, but I will repost here.
. I am not an all knowing star child, but would it not be easier to just kill synethitc creatures every 50,000 years.
I don't think you have to keep doing it either. I think if you leave the older species around to tell the younger species, if you build synethics, machines will kill them, species would get the point.
Honestly, if the Reapers destroyed only a few planets, and told them not to build or stop building synthetics or they would continue to wipe them off the galaxy, I think people would have gotten the message.. A bunch of older species stating if you buid synthetic life , we will destroy you, before everyone is destroyed by the Reapers would have been a great deterrant..

i thought the same thing.

Think about the implications of them doing that;

Reapers show up and destroy the synthetics. Organics are chaotic by nature and don't know what created them.Enter this crazy being that built the Citadel and the relays; some or many organics might view them as the 'creators' regardless of whether they told us different. Cycle continues; created rebels against created.


Plus, would a warning stop the Illusive man?

The people who seeing the reapers as gods would believe their message and stop the illusive man or the reapers could just destroy him / control him anyway. 

Modifié par Golden_Boy187, 18 mars 2012 - 02:05 .

[JPVS]

dreman9999 wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Indorctriantion theaory. 
 

I don't buy that theory. What I buy is bioware making a mess of things with this ending. The damage-control PR campaign they have been doing seems to agree with the "mess of things" theory. You don't do a damage-control PR if you actually planned an indocrination ending, you'd just say it right there.

[Dessalines]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

This thread wasn't created, when I posted on the other thread, but I will repost here.
. I am not an all knowing star child, but would it not be easier to just kill synethitc creatures every 50,000 years.
I don't think you have to keep doing it either. I think if you leave the older species around to tell the younger species, if you build synethics, machines will kill them, species would get the point.
Honestly, if the Reapers destroyed only a few planets, and told them not to build or stop building synthetics or they would continue to wipe them off the galaxy, I think people would have gotten the message.. A bunch of older species stating if you buid synthetic life , we will destroy you, before everyone is destroyed by the Reapers would have been a great deterrant..

i thought the same thing.

Think about the implications of them doing that;

Reapers show up and destroy the synthetics. Organics are chaotic by nature and don't know what created them.Enter this crazy being that built the Citadel and the relays; some or many organics might view them as the 'creators' regardless of whether they told us different. Cycle continues; created rebels against created.


Plus, would a warning stop the Illusive man?

The Reaper stated that organics in the mass effect world are chaotic by nature, it does not make it true in the Mass Effect World.  Organics thinking they are created by the reapers and rebelling agains the Reapers would not be the same thing. I think that is actually a different story.  Basically you would have a bunch of older species stating that Reapers are not Gods, but machines that wiped out synthetics or organics based on if you build synthetics.
Actually, I have an example in the Mass Effect universe, the first contact war. Humans used to go around opening relays without knowing their destination. That was against Galactic Law, and the First Contact War. End of story, humans ended up obeying galactic law. Yes, older species can enforce junior species to obey things that keep the galaxy safe. It has been proven in the Mass Effect Universe. Now, think about species that would have been around for millions of years enforcing stuff.

Modifié par Dessalines, 18 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[Navasha]

You are assuming the reapers are destroying everything and from OUR perspective you might be right.

However, to a reaper... collecting everyone and uploading their consciousness into a MATRIX style world contained within the Reaper, might just be 'saving' them. Everyone could continue on with their lives... completely unaware that everything that is happening is just an incredible simulation housed within a reaper.

It might be the only "logical" way of preserving as many cultures as possible who are on the verge of destroying themselves, while also clearing the way for the next generation of cultures to arise. Its actually spelled out as such in ME2 and ME3.

[dreman9999]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

They don't have millions of organic minds. They have millions of minds, yes, but mostly AI programs. If it were organic minds, there would be stuff like feelings. They have calculus and purpose, no other indication of otherwise.

They are fanatics yes; that doesn't mean they are AI. And they were given purpose by Catalyst; so in that we have the implication that all these organic minds had reached consensus about one thing; the cycle must continue at all cost.

Again, nothing say their organic. They just use organic part as material and cpu's. It 's like saying that  a robot I made out of chicken bones is an organic being.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mars 2012 - 02:10 .

[dreman9999]

JPVS wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Indorctriantion theaory. 
 

I don't buy that theory. What I buy is bioware making a mess of things with this ending. The damage-control PR campaign they have been doing seems to agree with the "mess of things" theory. You don't do a damage-control PR if you actually planned an indocrination ending, you'd just say it right there.

To make an ending no one would forget.

[JPVS]

dreman9999 wrote...

JPVS wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Indorctriantion theaory. 
 

I don't buy that theory. What I buy is bioware making a mess of things with this ending. The damage-control PR campaign they have been doing seems to agree with the "mess of things" theory. You don't do a damage-control PR if you actually planned an indocrination ending, you'd just say it right there.

To make an ending no one would forget.

Unforgettable ending for the worse reasons of course lol

[Atkara]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case, the Catalyst, AI or Adv. VI, wasn't supposed to be facing a union of organic forms and AIs (Geth and EDI in our case). Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:05 .

[Shallyah]

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

Modifié par Shallyah, 18 mars 2012 - 02:07 .

[Maimh]

"It like saying it a robot I made out of chicken bones is an organic being."

Well, if it was an organic free range chicken.