613 réponses à ce sujet

[JPVS]

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case (AI or Adv. VI) it wasn't supposed to be facing, a union of organic forms and AIs. Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

You are failing to see that the Reaper's didn't need to destroy the crucible. They only needed to let the crucible stay there, without firing. Because without shepard's choice, the crucible wouldn't have fired. If the crucible doesn't do a damn thing, the races lose the battle and the survivors leave information on time capsules for the next cycle (like Liara wanted to do) stating the crucible does nothing, so the next cycle must find another solution. Since the crucible solution took countless cycles to achieve, another solution would likely take as much.
so don't invite shepard up, don't make him chose, the crucible fails, the races fail, the reaper's win, and the next cycle must find a new solution on its own.

[Maimh]

"a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc."

(Mental image of Legion burning a football field- "I F*** hate grass!")

[Atkara]

Shallyah wrote...
This, according the Reaper's flawkess logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform...

Including the Reapers themselves? Why not?

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:16 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Looking back, I'm starting to think the Child/Catalyst AI is completely flawed. I mean, besides from the logic of creating synthetics to kill organics, while stating that synthesis is the final evolution of organic life but not allowing life to reach said state, there is also the fact the only reason he says "my solution no longer works" is because commander Shepard got up there. If he didn't, if the Crucible simply hadn't fired, the cycle would be lost and the races would have to tell the next cycle "forget about the Crucible, it doesn't work so find a new solution". This would extend the cycles for several millions of years until another solution presented itself, right?
Instead the Child/Catalyst brings Shepard up to the top where he has to make the choice, thus destroying the "solution". What kind of AI, without concepts of honor, respect or duty, with nothing more than calculus, would help Shepard end it? Seriously, for an infinitely old AI, it is really stupid.

Reapers are NOT AI. They are organic beings in a synthetic outer shell.

They are AI, they just use organic parts.

No they are not. They are hive minds of billions of organic minds rolled into one. Legion says this after you beat ME2 and speak to him. He says the Heretics were mistaken in thinking Sovereign was advanced AI.

They don't have millions of organic minds. They have millions of minds, yes, but mostly AI programs. If it were organic minds, there would be stuff like feelings. They have calculus and purpose, no other indication of otherwise.

They are fanatics yes; that doesn't mean they are AI. And they were given purpose by Catalyst; so in that we have the implication that all these organic minds had reached consensus about one thing; the cycle must continue at all cost.

Again, nothing say their organic. They just use organic part as material and cpu's. It 's like saying that  a robot I made out of chicken bones is an organic being.

Watch this video.

[Hidey0shi]

Create synthetics to kill most (more developed species) of the organics to make sure synthetics don't kill the rest of the organics

Why not send the reapers in every 50k to wipe out any synthetic life forms then? Thats a much better way to protect organics. This really makes no sense.

There are so many better ways to explain the reaper cycle, but they chose to go with one that is illogical.

[Golden_Boy187]

For the reapers "the end justifies the means" Humans & organics must "Evolve or die' and ascend into another form of enlighten being. In the end the salvation of all humans & organic life depend on these god like aliens saving us from our mistakes. New Age much

[Ranicus56]

Shallyah wrote...

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

But what is "ascend" to them? Did a reaper or the god kid give out a explanation to what that really means?

[Vhalkyrie]

It's the snake eating its tail.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Reapers are not AI.

[Atkara]

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case (AI or Adv. VI) it wasn't supposed to be facing, a union of organic forms and AIs. Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

You are failing to see that the Reaper's didn't need to destroy the crucible. They only needed to let the crucible stay there, without firing. Because without shepard's choice, the crucible wouldn't have fired. If the crucible doesn't do a damn thing, the races lose the battle and the survivors leave information on time capsules for the next cycle (like Liara wanted to do) stating the crucible does nothing, so the next cycle must find another solution. Since the crucible solution took countless cycles to achieve, another solution would likely take as much.
so don't invite shepard up, don't make him chose, the crucible fails, the races fail, the reaper's win, and the next cycle must find a new solution on its own.

Keep in mind that the Crucible plans have already been spread out in time-capsules, as Liara describes them, waiting for the next cycle, in case the current one fails to stop them. Even if the Reapers initiate a crackdown to locate them, they won't be able to find them all. Eventually, another union of races will storm into the Citadel and give an end. So, better now than waiting for the inevitable and have one organic to deal with, who "hopefully" will listen.

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[piemanz]

Ranicus56 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

But what is "ascend" to them? Did a reaper or the god kid give out a explanation to what that really means?

Do you really need a reason spelled out?, just look up the definition of ascend...

[JPVS]

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case (AI or Adv. VI) it wasn't supposed to be facing, a union of organic forms and AIs. Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

You are failing to see that the Reaper's didn't need to destroy the crucible. They only needed to let the crucible stay there, without firing. Because without shepard's choice, the crucible wouldn't have fired. If the crucible doesn't do a damn thing, the races lose the battle and the survivors leave information on time capsules for the next cycle (like Liara wanted to do) stating the crucible does nothing, so the next cycle must find another solution. Since the crucible solution took countless cycles to achieve, another solution would likely take as much.
so don't invite shepard up, don't make him chose, the crucible fails, the races fail, the reaper's win, and the next cycle must find a new solution on its own.

Keep in mind that the Crucible plans have already been spread out in time-capsules, as Liara describes them, waiting for the next cycle, in case the current one fails to stop them. Even if the Reapers initiate a crackdown to locate them, they won't be able to find them all. Eventually, another union of races will storm into the Citadel and give an end. So, better now than later.

But if you spread new time capsules saying "the crucible doesn't work", do you really think the next cycle would attempt the crucible again?

[Atkara]

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case (AI or Adv. VI) it wasn't supposed to be facing, a union of organic forms and AIs. Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

You are failing to see that the Reaper's didn't need to destroy the crucible. They only needed to let the crucible stay there, without firing. Because without shepard's choice, the crucible wouldn't have fired. If the crucible doesn't do a damn thing, the races lose the battle and the survivors leave information on time capsules for the next cycle (like Liara wanted to do) stating the crucible does nothing, so the next cycle must find another solution. Since the crucible solution took countless cycles to achieve, another solution would likely take as much.
so don't invite shepard up, don't make him chose, the crucible fails, the races fail, the reaper's win, and the next cycle must find a new solution on its own.

Keep in mind that the Crucible plans have already been spread out in time-capsules, as Liara describes them, waiting for the next cycle, in case the current one fails to stop them. Even if the Reapers initiate a crackdown to locate them, they won't be able to find them all. Eventually, another union of races will storm into the Citadel and give an end. So, better now than later.

But if you spread new time capsules saying "the crucible doesn't work", do you really think the next cycle would attempt the crucible again?

Reapers didn't do this for millions of years. They relied on indoctrination for this -a very successful method, I'd say. But, even if they did it now, nothing can stop hope -after all, this cycle had no idea if this would work or not. They were driven by what I've said above: hope.

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[superduperkoala]

I always assume the Starchild meant the new AI will ultimately wipe out all organic in the universe. To prevent ALL organic from extinction, they wipe out the advance civilizations every 50000 years to prevent them to invent any advance AI.
On the other hand, I can't see why the Reaper can't just protect organic by wiping out the new AI instead. Maybe the Reapers aren't very smart.

[Genera1Nemesis]

cru·ci·ble (krs-bl)
n.
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.
2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.
3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces: "Macroeconomics . . . was cast in the crucible of the Depression" (Peter Passell).

[Ranicus56]

piemanz wrote...

Ranicus56 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

But what is "ascend" to them? Did a reaper or the god kid give out a explanation to what that really means?

Do you really need a reason spelled out?, just look up the definition of ascend...

Yes but as other people have said they don't think like us. So their "definition of ascend" might not be the same.

[JPVS]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...



Reapers are not AI.

Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.

[JPVS]

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Basically, you have a machine working to destroy itself. They could have prevented Shepard's choice, thus avoiding the crucible from firing and forcing the races to warn the next cycle to not build the crucible and find another solution, which would then take millions of years.
Instead, they invite Shepard and even allow him the chance to destroy them. The logic is flawed, self-preservation wouldn't allow it and only a sense of honor and respect would make you contradict this.

Again, that is assuming that Catalyst is an AI. If anything he seems more like a super-advanced VI; he needed an organic to decide the alternate solution.

In either case (AI or Adv. VI) it wasn't supposed to be facing, a union of organic forms and AIs. Still, it happened. Catalyst and Reapers have been caught completely off-guard. Underestimating their superiority can be their undoing and the Catalyst can't physically manipulate anything, other than command the Reapers to destroy the Crucible -which again is in vain as this will eventually happen again. In a manner, better sort it out, than later.

You are failing to see that the Reaper's didn't need to destroy the crucible. They only needed to let the crucible stay there, without firing. Because without shepard's choice, the crucible wouldn't have fired. If the crucible doesn't do a damn thing, the races lose the battle and the survivors leave information on time capsules for the next cycle (like Liara wanted to do) stating the crucible does nothing, so the next cycle must find another solution. Since the crucible solution took countless cycles to achieve, another solution would likely take as much.
so don't invite shepard up, don't make him chose, the crucible fails, the races fail, the reaper's win, and the next cycle must find a new solution on its own.

Keep in mind that the Crucible plans have already been spread out in time-capsules, as Liara describes them, waiting for the next cycle, in case the current one fails to stop them. Even if the Reapers initiate a crackdown to locate them, they won't be able to find them all. Eventually, another union of races will storm into the Citadel and give an end. So, better now than later.

But if you spread new time capsules saying "the crucible doesn't work", do you really think the next cycle would attempt the crucible again?

Reapers didn't do this for millions of years. They relied on indoctrination for this -a very successful method, I'd say. But, even if they did it now, nothing can stop hope -after all, this cycle had no idea if this would work or not. They were driven by what I've said above: hope.

I'm not saying time capsules left by the Reapers. I'm saying time capsules left by humans, asari, salarians, turians, etc, saying "forget the crucible, it did not work for us even though we had everything"

[dreman9999]

Ranicus56 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

Ranicus56 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

But what is "ascend" to them? Did a reaper or the god kid give out a explanation to what that really means?

Do you really need a reason spelled out?, just look up the definition of ascend...

Yes but as other people have said they don't think like us. So their "definition of ascend" might not be the same.

It would mean ultimate evolution...Perfection.

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...



Reapers are not AI.

Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.

Well, it is science fiction. In literary metophor Catalyst is a representative of fate, or destiny; while Shep is representative of free-will. Catalyst cannot make the choice; it already created a solution that Shep proved would not work any more. In this Catalyst was limited by it's own conclusions. While it's initial methods were flawed; it must have seen this flaw; and created the Crucible as a 'test' of organics to see if they had reached a pinnacle that could find another solution (represented by Shep)

[Atkara]

JPVS wrote...

I'm not saying time capsules left by the Reapers. I'm saying time capsules left by humans, asari, salarians, turians, etc, saying "forget the crucible, it did not work for us even though we had everything"

The next cycle would propably start trying to figure out what went wrong -or not. But an AI/Adv. VI like the Catalyst, won't take such chances, even if it means that the next organics to achieve it, will appear 1 million years later. The fact alone, is enough. There's no reason to postpone it.

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Dessalines]

Shallyah wrote...

This has been explained several times now, if not dozens...

Reapers don't kill organics. They "ascend" the "most advanced" organic lifeforms to Reaper form to preserve them, while leaving the primitive ones to continue the normal pace of evolution. This, according the Reaper's flawless logic, prevents too advanced organics from developping a syntehtic lifeform that eventually would destroy not only the most advanced organics, but all kinds of organic lifeform, even the most primitive ones, animals, plants, etc.

It's not "We are synthetics that kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics". Seeing it that way is like being pointed at the moon and looking at the finger.

They were killing most of those people on the planets.. They were turning some of them into husks which ias the codex states "are the aggressive, mindless foot soldiers of the Reaper armes. They are created by impaling either living or dead humans on mechanical spikes that rapidly extract water and trace minerals, and replaces them with cybernactics. These cybernectics reanimate the lifeless flesh, and tissue transforming the bodies into horrifying killing machines.  There is your ascension.  I can write down what the other species are turned into for your liking too. A lot of murders in real life have killed people of all ages to "help" them, it does not make it true. Yes, the reapers kill people. It is not ascension So they kill the most advanced  organics, but sooner or latter, you would have to run out of organics. I doubt there is an infinite supply of organics that keep involving, or doubt that Reapers plant trees after they harvest a place either.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

I'm not saying time capsules left by the Reapers. I'm saying time capsules left by humans, asari, salarians, turians, etc, saying "forget the crucible, it did not work for us even though we had everything"

The next cycle would propably start trying to figure out what went wrong -or not. But an AI/Adv. VI like the Catalyst, won't take such chances, even if it means that the next organics to achieve it, will appear 1 million years later. The fact alone, is enough.

I'll put this down again in case you guys didn't see it. Just a straight up definition of the word.
cru·ci·ble  (krs-bl)n.1.
A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain,
used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces: "Macroeconomics . . . was cast in the crucible of the Depression" (Peter Passell).

[JPVS]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...



Reapers are not AI.

Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.

Well, it is science fiction. In literary metophor Catalyst is a representative of fate, or destiny; while Shep is representative of free-will. Catalyst cannot make the choice; it already created a solution that Shep proved would not work any more. In this Catalyst was limited by it's own conclusions. While it's initial methods were flawed; it must have seen this flaw; and created the Crucible as a 'test' of organics to see if they had reached a pinnacle that could find another solution (represented by Shep)

Thing is, if the Catalyst says he created and controls the Reapers, then he is far more advanced than them, and is in control. He can alter his program to control the Reapers, make them do something different, no? Unless, of course, the Catalyst is indeed a VI that "thinks" he controls the Reapers when he doesn't.
But this is already too many "ifs". Throw "ifs" enough and any theory makes sense. As much as I don't like it, Occam's Razor does apply and in this case the most plausible and simplest solution is that bioware screwed up.

[Genera1Nemesis]

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...



Reapers are not AI.

Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.

Well, it is science fiction. In literary metophor Catalyst is a representative of fate, or destiny; while Shep is representative of free-will. Catalyst cannot make the choice; it already created a solution that Shep proved would not work any more. In this Catalyst was limited by it's own conclusions. While it's initial methods were flawed; it must have seen this flaw; and created the Crucible as a 'test' of organics to see if they had reached a pinnacle that could find another solution (represented by Shep)

Thing is, if the Catalyst says he created and controls the Reapers, then he is far more advanced than them, and is in control. He can alter his program to control the Reapers, make them do something different, no? Unless, of course, the Catalyst is indeed a VI that "thinks" he controls the Reapers when he doesn't.
But this is already too many "ifs". Throw "ifs" enough and any theory makes sense. As much as I don't like it, Occam's Razor does apply and in this case the most plausible and simplest solution is that bioware screwed up.

This is why I said in an earlier post that a general can claim to 'control' his army; but in reality we know all he does is issue them orders.