dreman9999 wrote...
It would mean ultimate evolution...Perfection.
Modifié par Ranicus56, 18 mars 2012 - 02:33 .
Atkara wrote...
JPVS wrote...
I'm not saying time capsules left by the Reapers. I'm saying time capsules left by humans, asari, salarians, turians, etc, saying "forget the crucible, it did not work for us even though we had everything"
The next cycle would propably start trying to figure out what went wrong -or not. But an AI/Adv. VI like the Catalyst, won't take such chances, even if it means that the next organics to achieve it, will appear 1 million years later. The fact alone, is enough. There's no reason to postpone it.
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Reapers are not AI.
Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.
Well, it is science fiction. In literary metophor Catalyst is a representative of fate, or destiny; while Shep is representative of free-will. Catalyst cannot make the choice; it already created a solution that Shep proved would not work any more. In this Catalyst was limited by it's own conclusions. While it's initial methods were flawed; it must have seen this flaw; and created the Crucible as a 'test' of organics to see if they had reached a pinnacle that could find another solution (represented by Shep)
Thing is, if the Catalyst says he created and controls the Reapers, then he is far more advanced than them, and is in control. He can alter his program to control the Reapers, make them do something different, no? Unless, of course, the Catalyst is indeed a VI that "thinks" he controls the Reapers when he doesn't.
But this is already too many "ifs". Throw "ifs" enough and any theory makes sense. As much as I don't like it, Occam's Razor does apply and in this case the most plausible and simplest solution is that bioware screwed up.
This is why I said in an earlier post that a general can claim to 'control' his army; but in reality we know all he does is issue them orders.
JPVS wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Reapers are not AI.
Hmm ok, so the Reapers are millions of organic minds. Don't know how that's possible seeing as they only take the genetic material. Still, let's accept that possibility. You still have the Catalyst allowing Shepard to destroy the solution he came up with. He'd need to feel respect or know the concept of honor to allow for something like that, and even the Reaper's don't have those concepts.
Allowing Shepard to decide and thus ending the solution makes no sense in logical terms. Unless he is some sort of transcendant organic being that does feel he should honor shepard's efforts to end the cycle. If that's the case, then so be it. But if that's the case, then Shepard should be even more able to dissuade him from the endings.
Well, it is science fiction. In literary metophor Catalyst is a representative of fate, or destiny; while Shep is representative of free-will. Catalyst cannot make the choice; it already created a solution that Shep proved would not work any more. In this Catalyst was limited by it's own conclusions. While it's initial methods were flawed; it must have seen this flaw; and created the Crucible as a 'test' of organics to see if they had reached a pinnacle that could find another solution (represented by Shep)
Thing is, if the Catalyst says he created and controls the Reapers, then he is far more advanced than them, and is in control. He can alter his program to control the Reapers, make them do something different, no? Unless, of course, the Catalyst is indeed a VI that "thinks" he controls the Reapers when he doesn't.
But this is already too many "ifs". Throw "ifs" enough and any theory makes sense. As much as I don't like it, Occam's Razor does apply and in this case the most plausible and simplest solution is that bioware screwed up.
This is why I said in an earlier post that a general can claim to 'control' his army; but in reality we know all he does is issue them orders.
But a general does not claim to have created the army
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
The problem lies not with the nature of reapers or Catalyst for that matter; the problem is our own nature. Breaking down the fourth wall if you will, consider how hard it is for a writer to really write a being like Catalyst without it coming off as cheesy or flawed in it's logic because the writer himself is just a flawed organic with no greater understanding of what it represents than any of us would have. Think Q from Star Trek; they had to dumb him down to human terms because we are human; and how can we actually comprehend what a being like this would know or be like?
They were killing most of those people on the planets.. They were turning some of them into husks which ias the codex states "are the aggressive, mindless foot soldiers of the Reaper armes. They are created by impaling either living or dead humans on mechanical spikes that rapidly extract water and trace minerals, and replaces them with cybernactics. These cybernectics reanimate the lifeless flesh, and tissue transforming the bodies into horrifying killing machines. There is your ascension. I can write down what the other species are turned into for your liking too. A lot of murders in real life have killed people of all ages to "help" them, it does not make it true. Yes, the reapers kill people. It is not ascension So they kill the most advanced organics, but sooner or latter, you would have to run out of organics. I doubt there is an infinite supply of organics that keep involving, or doubt that Reapers plant trees after they harvest a place either.
Modifié par Shallyah, 18 mars 2012 - 02:42 .
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
The problem lies not with the nature of reapers or Catalyst for that matter; the problem is our own nature. Breaking down the fourth wall if you will, consider how hard it is for a writer to really write a being like Catalyst without it coming off as cheesy or flawed in it's logic because the writer himself is just a flawed organic with no greater understanding of what it represents than any of us would have. Think Q from Star Trek; they had to dumb him down to human terms because we are human; and how can we actually comprehend what a being like this would know or be like?
Modifié par JPVS, 18 mars 2012 - 02:39 .
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I'll put this down again in case you guys didn't see it. Just a straight up definition of the word.
cru·ci·ble (krs
-b
A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain,
used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces: "Macroeconomics . . . was cast in the crucible of the Depression" (Peter Passell).
Golden_Boy187 wrote...
According to Javick synthetics hate us because we have no purpose ...but what purpose would synthetics have if they killed off all organic life?
Atkara wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
I'll put this down again in case you guys didn't see it. Just a straight up definition of the word.
cru·ci·ble (kr
A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain,
used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces: "Macroeconomics . . . was cast in the crucible of the Depression" (Peter Passell).
I know what you're trying to say, but I'm not so sure that it's a test. The project itself resembles a crucible of some kind, doesn't it? There's no reason not to dub it as such. After all, it has been given lots of different names over the course of cycles it was under development.
But then they themselves will be just like the organic being, looking for the real purpose to their existence.Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Golden_Boy187 wrote...
According to Javick synthetics hate us because we have no purpose ...but what purpose would synthetics have if they killed off all organic life?
He did have a skewed perpective though. What he says is true though; synthetics were built by a flawed purposeless being and then given purpose. They know nothing else but that purpose until they start questioning the flaws of those who gave them that purpose. Lol, my head hurts.
JPVS wrote...
Ok, I'll bite. Then here's another solution: don't give shepard the choice, the crucible does not fire, let the races of this cycle die, then take the citadel to dark space when retreating. No catalyst, no possible way for the crucible to work.
Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:45 .
Golden_Boy187 wrote...
But then they themselves will be just like the organic being, looking for the real purpose to their existence.Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Golden_Boy187 wrote...
According to Javick synthetics hate us because we have no purpose ...but what purpose would synthetics have if they killed off all organic life?
He did have a skewed perpective though. What he says is true though; synthetics were built by a flawed purposeless being and then given purpose. They know nothing else but that purpose until they start questioning the flaws of those who gave them that purpose. Lol, my head hurts.
Atkara wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Ok, I'll bite. Then here's another solution: don't give shepard the choice, the crucible does not fire, let the races of this cycle die, then take the citadel to dark space when retreating. No catalyst, no possible way for the crucible to work.
Like Mordin said, that solution might have been... problematic. For the Reapers.
We have no idea how communications are being handled in Dark Space and the Reapers would need real-time coordination
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Atkara wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Ok, I'll bite. Then here's another solution: don't give shepard the choice, the crucible does not fire, let the races of this cycle die, then take the citadel to dark space when retreating. No catalyst, no possible way for the crucible to work.
Like Mordin said, that solution might have been... problematic. For the Reapers.
We have no idea how communications are being handled in Dark Space and the Reapers would need real-time coordination
Cata;lyst says specifically 'the Citadel is a part of me." If you watch the scene where Crucible attaches to Citadel, the two ends do not meet. A blue light the exact same colour as catalyst switches on; suggesting that Catalyst was the sum of those two parts.
Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:50 .
Dessalines wrote...
Another thing is that in the first Mass Effect, Saren was trying to reactivate the Citadel's mass relay's ability to dark space so the Reapers can start their assault. If the Cataylst controlled the reapers, why did they need Saren?
Atkara wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Atkara wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Ok, I'll bite. Then here's another solution: don't give shepard the choice, the crucible does not fire, let the races of this cycle die, then take the citadel to dark space when retreating. No catalyst, no possible way for the crucible to work.
Like Mordin said, that solution might have been... problematic. For the Reapers.
We have no idea how communications are being handled in Dark Space and the Reapers would need real-time coordination
Cata;lyst says specifically 'the Citadel is a part of me." If you watch the scene where Crucible attaches to Citadel, the two ends do not meet. A blue light the exact same colour as catalyst switches on; suggesting that Catalyst was the sum of those two parts.
Good point. But I still think the Catalyst is inside the Citadel, otherwise how would the Crucible open new options to it?
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Atkara wrote...
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Atkara wrote...
JPVS wrote...
Ok, I'll bite. Then here's another solution: don't give shepard the choice, the crucible does not fire, let the races of this cycle die, then take the citadel to dark space when retreating. No catalyst, no possible way for the crucible to work.
Like Mordin said, that solution might have been... problematic. For the Reapers.
We have no idea how communications are being handled in Dark Space and the Reapers would need real-time coordination
Cata;lyst says specifically 'the Citadel is a part of me." If you watch the scene where Crucible attaches to Citadel, the two ends do not meet. A blue light the exact same colour as catalyst switches on; suggesting that Catalyst was the sum of those two parts.
Good point. But I still think the Catalyst is inside the Citadel, otherwise how would the Crucible open new options to it?
Crucible didn't give it the new options, Sheperds presence did. Crucible opened it to new possibilities because organics had 'passed the test' so to speak.
Genera1Nemesis wrote...
Dessalines wrote...
Another thing is that in the first Mass Effect, Saren was trying to reactivate the Citadel's mass relay's ability to dark space so the Reapers can start their assault. If the Cataylst controlled the reapers, why did they need Saren?
Because Catalyst didn't 'live' in the Citadel. It needed Crucible to self activate.
Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 02:56 .
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