613 réponses à ce sujet

[Genera1Nemesis]

Myrmedus wrote...

Regardless of the logic (or lack thereof) in the Catalyst's thought process, we should still be able to argue, and if BW were going for philosophy it would work very well. I said it in another thread but for me the whole philsophy of the Catalyst is a metaphor for life, death and limbo:

- If the galaxy wrestles free of the Reaper's control then it stands a great risk of eventually being destroyed (death) but the freedom gained is the only way to be truly alive (life).

- The Catalyst's proposition saves the galaxy from destruction (conquers death) but at the cost of freedom and allowing life to naturally progress past a certain point (limbo).

It all comes down to what you believe in, which is why you should have a choice. Do you take life in all its glory but with the risks of death? Or do you life a stunted, controlled existence so that you may exist forever?

I agree there should have at least been a question and answer phase at the end, lol.

I do see it like this though; Shep was dying regardless of what happened.He had already passed out three times; was bleeding porfusley and didn't have time to do anything else but end the war with whatever means he had available to him at the time, or the Reapers would just win anyways (Hackett kept saying they couldnt' win conventionally, and needed Crucible to work)

[prsquared]

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

prsquared wrote...

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

prsquared wrote...

It's actually "Harvest advanced civilizations and leave the younger ones alone". Kinda makes sense as long as you harvest the synthetics as well.

IDK about that how many edvance speicies could our solor system genrate? you know since it takes millions of years. One could say that the last advance space travling species that the Sol system would produce is the human.  

There's a dialogue in game where someone says the Yahg are going to run the next cycle most probably. IMO there are millions of systems in the galaxy. So, the probability that hundreds of significantly advanced civilizations that haven't invented space travel exists is very large.

But what about the sol system? how long before the sun turns into a red giant and destroys the earth ? when does it end what happens when they no longer have life giving systems? 

Hmm, never really considered that. Yes, that does put the whole thing into perspective. I'm not a huge fan of the starchilds explanation. Infact, I hated the endings. Just saying I can understand why he would take extreme measures like this.

[SimKoning]

This whole synthetics/organics dichotomy is absurd. A species of AIs would occupy a completely different niche in a galactic "ecology" than a planet based organic species such as ourselves. They would have no need for liquid water, air, or gravity. Being living quantum computers, they would probably inhabit regions of space completely undesirable to us, such as rogue ice planets in deep space. Quantum computers would be sensitive to heat and radiation due to their tendency to decohere, and so they would probably prefer extreme cold. Once you have an AI that can design smarter AIs, then you have yourself a technological singularity. Simply put, that means that such life would probably evolve so far beyond us in intellect and complexity, that some galactic campaign on their part to wipe out all organic life would be like us trying to wipe all the ants on our planet... which would be incredibly stupid.

The biggest threat to an advanced AI being would be another powerful artificial intelligence, not primates in rocket ships. For the last five years I thought that the Reapers were simply the oldest and most powerful beings in the galaxy, and they just didn't want anything evolving to the point in which it could be a threat to them. I thought the whole order/chaos dichotomy was about the fact that they can direct their own evolution, while biological species evolve due to natural selection, hence "chaos". I didn't expect it to be something as simple minded as, "the created will always rebel against their creators", which is refuted by the fact that I'm not trying to kill my parents: we create life every time we have sex and make babies. If lil space Hitler is talking about designed life, then why is it just organics that are the problem? What about genetically engineered life? Why aren't they a huge problem? After all, two biological species that need the same kinds of food and living space would be far more likely to go to war than a space primate and a frigin Dyson sphere.

Even if little Space Ghost Hitler was right, that doesn't mean melting sapient species into goo and squirting them into a giant death machine equals "salvation". That would be like me claiming that I'm helping a chicken ascend by eating it, which would be absurd. Until I got to the end of the game, I thought that the Reapers believed that they were the key to salvation of life itself because they were masters of their own evolution. I thought that maybe they believed that by improving themselves over billions of years by assimilating other species, both artificial and biological, it might allow them to escape the heat death of the universe. I thought that's what Sovereign meant when he said they are infinite, without beginning or end. THAT would be real science fiction, not the absurd space magic we seem to be stuck with for the time being.

Uuhh, now I'm angry and depressed again...

Modifié par SimKoning, 18 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[Myrmedus]

For me, whether he dies should depend on what you've done throughout the series and what choice you take. If Shepard dies because of something YOU, as the player, have done then it makes the impact that much greater.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Myrmedus wrote...

For me, whether he dies should depend on what you've done throughout the series and what choice you take. If Shepard dies because of something YOU, as the player, have done then it makes the impact that much greater.

Sure, I agree to a certain degree. But they never gave you a choice to quit Cerberus either, and noone ever complained about that 'lack of choice'.

[A Paperback Hero]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Atkara wrote...

JPVS wrote...

Atkara wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Another thing is that in the first Mass Effect, Saren was trying to reactivate the Citadel's mass relay's ability to dark space so the Reapers can start their assault. If the Cataylst controlled the reapers, why did they need Saren?

Because Catalyst didn't 'live' in the Citadel. It needed Crucible to self activate.

I don't remember anything like that from ME1. What the protheans did was to prevent the Keepers in the citadel from receiving the Reaper signal that would make the keepers turn the citadel into one massive mass relay to dark space.

I stand corrected then. In any way though, they needed an insider, an indoctrinated sentient organic, like Saren, to reactivate that signal, as neither the Keepers nor the Reapers were in position to do so. Makes me wonder about such an arrogance on their behalf... to leave something like that unguarded...

No, the whole point of using the conduit on Ilos was to allow Sovereign to dock with the Citadel tower so it could assume direct control of the station and activate it's hidden relay function. 

However, StarChild competely wrecks that entire story arc.

Truuuuuef

Especially since it seems Star Baby Jesus was in the citadel watching the whole time. Ohhhhhh thats just creepy to think about. He not only likes to kill all the organics every 50k years, but he likes to watch it all happen.

Modifié par A Paperback Hero, 18 mars 2012 - 03:42 .

[savionen]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

The Reapers made the Geth aggressive.
The Reapers made the synthetics in the Metacron wars dangerous. The Protheans were winning until the Reapers came in and helped the synthetics.

Modifié par savionen, 18 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[A Paperback Hero]

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

The Reapers made the Geth aggressive.
The Reapers made the synthetics in the Metacron wars dangerous. The Protheans were winning until the Reapers came in and helped the synthetics.

Yep, no reapers = no geth army attacking from Rannoch to ****** off the rest of the galaxy. Guess the whole star child's theory gets even more ridiculous the more this thread gets flesh out.

Modifié par A Paperback Hero, 18 mars 2012 - 03:46 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

No, Sovereign made them an offer. They CHOSE to take it, thereby proving the entire point. Sovereign constantly hited at or outright said he hated the geth; and they were just tools to use as cannon-fodder. At no point were they ever brain-washed. The chose that path, even when the other geth disagreed.

[Saint Op]

I wander the streets at night killing people so that they are not horribly murdered by some pshcyopath....I also wear their skin as tribute to them...

[Genera1Nemesis]

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

[A Paperback Hero]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

No, Sovereign made them an offer. They CHOSE to take it, thereby proving the entire point. Sovereign constantly hited at or outright said he hated the geth; and they were just tools to use as cannon-fodder. At no point were they ever brain-washed. The chose that path, even when the other geth disagreed.

Where as the Reapers gave them that choice had they not given that choice it would not have happened and they would be still chilling on Rannoch without a care.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

[savionen]

They still wouldn't have had the option if the Reapers didn't come in though. We're trying to take evidence that the synthetics would naturally become dangerous, and there are no examples, that's the problem. Even in the Metacron wars the "experiment" is tainted because the Reapers get involved.

We don't know what they would have done without the Reapers being involved. All we have God-Kid's word, with no backup or explanation.

[The Ole Ultra Violence]

It's not extermination, it's stated earlier in the game that certain races (Like whatever the Shadow Broker was, forget what they're called) that haven't discovered AI or space travel yet are left alone. The Reapers kill anyone capable of creating AI's to prevent them becoming strong enough to defeat the Reapers and breaking the cycle.

Not to say the ending made sense, there are plenty of other issues, but I think this idea has merit, not because it's in anyway not horrific, but it makes sense from a sort of "Sociopathic pragmatism" point of view. Survival at any cost, even if it destroys the point of survival. Done right, Shepards rebuttal could touch upon the very meaning of life itself.

Unfortunately, it's not very well explained, and you have to connect the dots yourself. Statements like "We help you ascend" don't have any meaning, what the f**k does that even mean? Do you turn us into Reapers? Is that what happened in Mass Effect 2? Furthermore, it's never explained why the Reapers don't just wipe out synthetic life instead? How do we know that's the case if we've never had it happen except when the Reapers are involved?

It's an idea that could be interesting, but it's presented too abruptly and isn't used or thought out to it's full extent.

Modifié par The Ole Ultra Violence, 18 mars 2012 - 03:51 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

No, Sovereign made them an offer. They CHOSE to take it, thereby proving the entire point. Sovereign constantly hited at or outright said he hated the geth; and they were just tools to use as cannon-fodder. At no point were they ever brain-washed. The chose that path, even when the other geth disagreed.

Where as the Reapers gave them that choice had they not given that choice it would not have happened and they would be still chilling on Rannoch without a care.

Okay, but the Geth are also just one AI in a trilogy that had numerous psychopathic AI's. Cerberus was building them all over the place....

[Golden_Boy187]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

so what will the aliens do when the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the earth anyway?

[jkflipflopDAO]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

Yeah, but they didn't rush Klaatu back to the mothership, only to find that it's running away at warp speed with Gort already aboard somehow. 

[Genera1Nemesis]

Golden_Boy187 wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

so what will the aliens do when the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the earth anyway?

That wasn't part of the story, lol. In the end the alien developed 'human' emotion and decided against it because of our creativity and music and such...much like the Zentradi in the Robotech series...

[savionen]

The Ole Ultra Violence wrote...

It's not extermination, it's stated earlier in the game that certain races (Like whatever the Shadow Broker was, forget what they're called) that haven't discovered AI or space travel yet are left alone. The Reapers kill anyone capable of creating AI's to prevent them becoming strong enough to defeat the Reapers and breaking the cycle.

Not to say the ending made sense, there are plenty of other issues, but I think this idea has merit, not because it's in anyway not horrific, but it makes sense from a sort of "Sociopathic pragmatism" point of view. Survival at any cost, even if it destroys the point of survival. Done right, Shepards rebuttal could touch upon the very meaning of life itself.

Unfortunately, it's not very well explained, and you have to connect the dots yourself. Statements like "We help you ascend" don't have any meaning, what the f**k does that even mean? Do you turn us into Reapers? Is that what happened in Mass Effect 2? Furthermore, it's never explained why the Reapers don't just wipe out synthetic life instead? How do we know that's the case if we've never had it happen except when the Reapers are involved?

It's an idea that could be interesting, but it's presented too abruptly and isn't used or thought out to it's full extent.

Yeah, Reapers turn species into more Reapers. I can understand and like the core concept, it was just poorly explained, and there's no back-up reasoning to it. If they had evidence, or showed that God-Kid was created by a society that was wiped out by synthetics, then there'd be something.

[Golden_Boy187]

savionen wrote...

They still wouldn't have had the option if the Reapers didn't come in though. We're trying to take evidence that the synthetics would naturally become dangerous, and there are no examples, that's the problem. Even in the Metacron wars the "experiment" is tainted because the Reapers get involved.

We don't know what they would have done without the Reapers being involved. All we have God-Kid's word, with no backup or explanation.

Yup and another thing since the Geth fully evolve and are capable of independent thought why wouldn't they just build their own government with laws to keep the peace and just police themselves like every one else.  

[Genera1Nemesis]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

Yeah, but they didn't rush Klaatu back to the mothership, only to find that it's running away at warp speed with Gort already aboard somehow. 

lol, very good point. That was the biggest, and I dare say; only plot-hole in that final scene; but boy is it a big hole.

[PaulSX]

savionen wrote...

prsquared wrote...

It's actually "Harvest advanced civilizations and leave the younger ones alone". Kinda makes sense as long as you harvest the synthetics as well.

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

The reapers are the proof that synthetics can wipe out all organics if they want to. The thing really bugged me is why they want to control organic life not eliminate them and how the Crucible can create new energy to merge organic and synthetic life, also why they do not use it in the first place. BioWare really need to address all the plot holes in the future ME3 contents.

[Golden_Boy187]

savionen wrote...

The Ole Ultra Violence wrote...

It's not extermination, it's stated earlier in the game that certain races (Like whatever the Shadow Broker was, forget what they're called) that haven't discovered AI or space travel yet are left alone. The Reapers kill anyone capable of creating AI's to prevent them becoming strong enough to defeat the Reapers and breaking the cycle.

Not to say the ending made sense, there are plenty of other issues, but I think this idea has merit, not because it's in anyway not horrific, but it makes sense from a sort of "Sociopathic pragmatism" point of view. Survival at any cost, even if it destroys the point of survival. Done right, Shepards rebuttal could touch upon the very meaning of life itself.

Unfortunately, it's not very well explained, and you have to connect the dots yourself. Statements like "We help you ascend" don't have any meaning, what the f**k does that even mean? Do you turn us into Reapers? Is that what happened in Mass Effect 2? Furthermore, it's never explained why the Reapers don't just wipe out synthetic life instead? How do we know that's the case if we've never had it happen except when the Reapers are involved?

It's an idea that could be interesting, but it's presented too abruptly and isn't used or thought out to it's full extent.

Yeah, Reapers turn species into more Reapers. I can understand and like the core concept, it was just poorly explained, and there's no back-up reasoning to it. If they had evidence, or showed that God-Kid was created by a society that was wiped out by synthetics, then there'd be something.

kinda like "V"  

[A Paperback Hero]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

Yes, but the difference with that classic is that it wasn't a deus ex machina that brought the aliens in at the last 5 mins (l ast 5 pages for a book.). We are also left to wonder for most of the book why they are attacking to have the filled in toward the end. We aren't lead on totally different presumption just have it be changed radically at the last second. In that book humans are given a second chance to do right by the world. Reapers aren't giving second chances. Just doing their cycle coldly without any compassion for the organics or entreaties to appeal to the organics to do right.

With all the reaper's power and star boy's omnipotism its hard to make this ending and not wonder why he doesn't try to at least appeal to the organics to prove his case about synthetics before just straight up nuking them.