613 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden_Boy187]

suntzuxi wrote...

savionen wrote...

prsquared wrote...

It's actually "Harvest advanced civilizations and leave the younger ones alone". Kinda makes sense as long as you harvest the synthetics as well.

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

The reapers are the proof that synthetics can wipe out all organics if they want to. The thing really bugged me is why they want to control organic life not eliminate them and how the Crucible can create new energy to merge organic and synthetic life, also why they do not use it in the first place. BioWare really need to address all the plot holes in the future ME3 contents.

LMFAO thats right why knowing that merging the two would bring an end to the war would you not do it in the first place. 

[Genera1Nemesis]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

Yes, but the difference with that classic is that it wasn't a deus ex machina that brought the aliens in at the last 5 mins (l ast 5 pages for a book.). We are also left to wonder for most of the book why they are attacking to have the filled in toward the end. We aren't lead on totally different presumption just have it be changed radically at the last second. In that book humans are given a second chance to do right by the world. Reapers aren't giving second chances. Just doing their cycle coldly without any compassion for the organics or entreaties to appeal to the organics to do right.

With all the reaper's power and star boy's omnipotism its hard to make this ending and not wonder why he doesn't try to at least appeal to the organics to prove his case about synthetics before just straight up nuking them.

Oh I know; that's why said it just uses the same basic logic as Catalyst; not anywhere near the same lol. It's just that this thread is about the motives being silly or illogical; I just wanted to point out a great moment in literature where that logic is considered to be amazing, lol.

[MassEffect762]

eh, either way I look at it those arrogant bastards need to be stopped.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

Oh,and that story is considered a classic. Just saying.

Yes, but the difference with that classic is that it wasn't a deus ex machina that brought the aliens in at the last 5 mins (l ast 5 pages for a book.). We are also left to wonder for most of the book why they are attacking to have the filled in toward the end. We aren't lead on totally different presumption just have it be changed radically at the last second. In that book humans are given a second chance to do right by the world. Reapers aren't giving second chances. Just doing their cycle coldly without any compassion for the organics or entreaties to appeal to the organics to do right.

With all the reaper's power and star boy's omnipotism its hard to make this ending and not wonder why he doesn't try to at least appeal to the organics to prove his case about synthetics before just straight up nuking them.

Oh I know; that's why said it just uses the same basic logic as Catalyst; not anywhere near the same presentation of though, lol. It's just that this thread is about the motives being silly or illogical; I just wanted to point out a great moment in literature where that logic is considered to be amazing, lol.

[Kelgair]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

No, Sovereign made them an offer. They CHOSE to take it, thereby proving the entire point. Sovereign constantly hited at or outright said he hated the geth; and they were just tools to use as cannon-fodder. At no point were they ever brain-washed. The chose that path, even when the other geth disagreed.

Where as the Reapers gave them that choice had they not given that choice it would not have happened and they would be still chilling on Rannoch without a care.

You don't know that, considering that since the Geth's creation organic beings always tried to destroy them out of fear, when the Geth finish the dyson sphere and upload to create their "true" AI, that AI might assume that all organic life is hostile by default and pre-empt any attempts at destroying it. And since organics had continued to destroy AI even after the Geth shut themselves behind the Veil (the Citadel gambling AI, the VI on the moon and who knows how many examples that didn't involve Shepard). Whose to say that AI wouldn't be right? Before Legion met Shepard they had no way to know that there might be a real way to peace. As Legion says, every interaction with their creators has always led to their creators attempting to destroy them.

[Genera1Nemesis]

MassEffect762 wrote...

eh, either way I look at it those arrogant bastards need to be stopped.

Agreed. I don't question their motives (ensuring organic life survives at any cost) but I do question theri methods. Pretty brutal, in the opinion of this limited organic lifeform, lol.

[SimKoning]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

AS an interesting aside, if you haven't already watch the film The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien uses the same logic as the Catalyst in that it wants to wipe out humanity so that we don't destroy the entire ecology of the earth one day.

    Right, but why the heck would a type 3 (on the Kardashev scale) civilization that is space based, synthetic, and devoid of organic components bother wiping out all complex life in the galaxy? We are talking about what would be millions, if not billions of worlds in Mass Effect’s version of the Milky Way. The biggest threat to the organic life would be other forms of organic life, not some quantum computer Matrioshka brain constructed around a black hole. Destroying *space faring* civilizations capable evolving into, or constructing new forms of super intelligence would make some sense, but not because they would be a threat to organic life, it would be because they would be a threat to preexisting artificial life forms… such as the Reapers. Bioware was on the right track, then they got it completely backwards.    

Modifié par SimKoning, 18 mars 2012 - 04:02 .

[Genera1Nemesis]

Kelgair wrote...

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

savionen wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

prsquared wrote...

savionen wrote...

It's still bad logic.

They give you no proof that synthetics will wipe out all organics. The only thing you have to go on is that the Reapers come in and make the Geth and Metacron (or whatever they're called in Prothean times) hostile. You can make the Geth and Quarians kiss and make up.

Even if synthetics were at war with organics, why would they wipe out EVERY organic? Would they kill every single ant, every plant, every rat on every single planet? Every strain of bacteria? The whole concept is insane.

Also, in all 3 endings, it's still possible to create pure-synthetics. Even the synthetisize ending organic-synthetics could create pure synthetics for menial and mundane tasks.

I'm not too sure about the Quarians/ Geth alliance. The geth just became fully evolved AI capable of independent thought. They follow largely the same programming, but the paths they take from now on will be different. The possibility of  rogue factions within the geth has increased now.

Exactly, and the Heretics already proved that AI had resolved to kill organics for tehcnological gain; and the Geth as a whole agreed to fight Quarians for 'self-preservation'.

The Heretics only got that way because of the Reapers.

No, Sovereign made them an offer. They CHOSE to take it, thereby proving the entire point. Sovereign constantly hited at or outright said he hated the geth; and they were just tools to use as cannon-fodder. At no point were they ever brain-washed. The chose that path, even when the other geth disagreed.

Where as the Reapers gave them that choice had they not given that choice it would not have happened and they would be still chilling on Rannoch without a care.

You don't know that, considering that since the Geth's creation organic beings always tried to destroy them out of fear, when the Geth finish the dyson sphere and upload to create their "true" AI, that AI might assume that all organic life is hostile by default and pre-empt any attempts at destroying it. And since organics had continued to destroy AI even after the Geth shut themselves behind the Veil (the Citadel gambling AI, the VI on the moon and who knows how many examples that didn't involve Shepard). Whose to say that AI wouldn't be right? Before Legion met Shepard they had no way to know that there might be a real way to peace. As Legion says, every interaction with their creators has always led to their creators attempting to destroy them.

In conversation with Legion, Shep can even say that the Dysons sphere hub thing sounds like a 'Reaper." Legion never contests this point.

[Genera1Nemesis]

The conversations with Legion on nature of Reapers.

[Alraiis]

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

[Genera1Nemesis]

Alraiis wrote...

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

I'll point this out one more time; the Reapers are not AI. They have synthetic bodies (they are giant ships) but they are not AI.

[SimKoning]

"You don't know that, considering that since the Geth's creation organic beings always tried to destroy them out of fear, when the Geth finish the dyson sphere and upload to create their "true" AI, that AI might assume that all organic life is hostile by default and pre-empt any attempts at destroying it."

A Dyson sphere is the size of a solar system, now imagine millions of Dyson spheres linked together by a FTL network. I doubt they would be threatened by organic species running around in rockets anymore than you would feel threatened by a fly buzzing around your head. I doubt they would they be inclined to wipe out every squishy critter they come across anymore than we would go on some campaign to wipe out all bacteria on Earth. What we worry about are the few species of bacteria that do pose a threat to us once in a while, but not ALL of them.

Modifié par SimKoning, 18 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[Captain Flowers]

I NEVER thought I would say that the ending to The Matrix trilogy made more sense, but it does. It's a GAINAX ending, and it's one for the record books.

[Bobamelius]

If the Catalyst's assumption that all synthetic life will invariably, at some point, decide to wipe out all organic life (which many in this thread have already pointed out doesn't make sense) then in order to reach that conclusion, he must have observed it happening on many occasions, ie, several galaxies have been wiped out by omnicidal AI, spurring someone to create the Reapers.

Think about it though. The Reapers 'police' our galaxy to prevent the rise of omnicidal AIs, and each culling takes several hundred years. The Reaper fleet we know in-game could be doing the same thing to several galaxies in the local cluster in the 50,000-year timeframe.

But the universe is a big place. We already know there are billions of galaxies in the observable universe. Are there a) billions of Reaper armadas throughout the universe 'protecting' organic life? Or perhaps the Catalyst only polices this galaxy and maybe several others nearby.

If A, then ME is pointless anyway because if one galaxy avoids its culling, more Reapers from nearby fleets can be redirected to the Milky Way to finish the culling, and preventative measures can be taken universe-wide to prevent such a thing from happening again.

If B, the Catalyst is only delaying the inevitable as omnicidal AI from galaxies outside the Reapers' sphere of influence will eventually get here and wipe out all organic life anyway. The Catalyst and the Reapers' entire reason for being becomes moot.

[SimKoning]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Alraiis wrote...

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

I'll point this out one more time; the Reapers are not AI. They have synthetic bodies (they are giant ships) but they are not AI.

They may have wetware/hardware composite brains, but they are still artificial in that they are constructed, designed and intelligent machines, so they are AIs. Why else would they be destroyed along with the Geth during the destruction ending?

[SkitSkit]

I know its been said but

"Yo dawg, i heard you don't like getting killed by synthetics, so i make some synthetics to kill you so you don't get killed by synthetics"

Also, what my shepard would say to the star child

"Wait wait wait wait, Sovereign said that our technology develops down the paths you desire... So how the hell is that fair? of course we're going to get killed by our own synthetics if you force us towards that technological singularity! And for the record, even with your bat **** crazy plan, I've got an entire synthetic fleet fighting beside us as equals!

GTFO Harbinger!"

[Kelgair]

SimKoning wrote...

"You don't know that, considering that since the Geth's creation organic beings always tried to destroy them out of fear, when the Geth finish the dyson sphere and upload to create their "true" AI, that AI might assume that all organic life is hostile by default and pre-empt any attempts at destroying it."

A Dyson sphere is the size of a solar system, now imagine millions of Dyson spheres linked together by a FTL network. I doubt they would be threatened by organic species running around in rockets anymore than you would feel threatened by a fly buzzing around your head. I doubt they would they be inclined to wipe out every squishy critter they come across anymore than we would go on some campaign to wipe out all bacteria on Earth. What we worry about are the few species of bacteria that do pose a threat to us once in a while, but not ALL of them.

You're presuming the Geth would be able to form mutliple Dyson spheres. As far as the Geth have known there's always been a swarm of flies that have attempted to destroy it since it's creation, if they wanted to make multple Dyson spheres it would only be logical to destroy all flies and the possibility of flies so that they could recreate their spheres in peace. Especially after their creators destroy their first attempt at making a Sphere. You seem to be arguing from a point past what's currently known in the ME universe.

[Genera1Nemesis]

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Alraiis wrote...

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

I'll point this out one more time; the Reapers are not AI. They have synthetic bodies (they are giant ships) but they are not AI.

They may have wetware/hardware composite brains, but they are still artificial in that they are constructed, designed and intelligent machines, so they are AIs. Why else would they be destroyed along with the Geth during the destruction ending?

They were non-specific about AI; they simply said 'all synthetic' would be destroyed, meaning their mechanical bits would die, so would they; kinda like Shep in a way; or any other organic that needed a pacemaker lol.

[SimKoning]

Bobamelius wrote...

If the Catalyst's assumption that all synthetic life will invariably, at some point, decide to wipe out all organic life (which many in this thread have already pointed out doesn't make sense) then in order to reach that conclusion, he must have observed it happening on many occasions, ie, several galaxies have been wiped out by omnicidal AI, spurring someone to create the Reapers.

Think about it though. The Reapers 'police' our galaxy to prevent the rise of omnicidal AIs, and each culling takes several hundred years. The Reaper fleet we know in-game could be doing the same thing to several galaxies in the local cluster in the 50,000-year timeframe.

But the universe is a big place. We already know there are billions of galaxies in the observable universe. Are there a) billions of Reaper armadas throughout the universe 'protecting' organic life? Or perhaps the Catalyst only polices this galaxy and maybe several others nearby.

If A, then ME is pointless anyway because if one galaxy avoids its culling, more Reapers from nearby fleets can be redirected to the Milky Way to finish the culling, and preventative measures can be taken universe-wide to prevent such a thing from happening again.

If B, the Catalyst is only delaying the inevitable as omnicidal AI from galaxies outside the Reapers' sphere of influence will eventually get here and wipe out all organic life anyway. The Catalyst and the Reapers' entire reason for being becomes moot.

Even if Space-Ghost-Child-Hitler-AI-God's claim that some super AI will eventually cause the mass extinction of biological life in a galaxy is valid, then so what? Preventing that from happening would be like some alien species coming to Earth 500 million years ago to prevent Cambrian fauna from evolving into more complex animal species, which of course, would be insane. Not to mention that even if some AI managed to wipe out all the *current* life, that doesn’t mean abiogenesis would cease to happen. There would be new life forms forming almost as often as new star systems. Is this insane AI going to sift through billions of stars to stamp out self replicating polymers any where it sees it? THIS IS STUPID LOL 

[Halo Quea]

Can I ask a question?

Why does the Catalyst get to decide what Shepard's choices are? Isn't that just another type of control?

Isn't the Catalyst still controlling the fate of the galaxy by ALLOWING Shepard to choose?

[KylieDog]

One questions why the Reapers don't only kill synthetics, if the reasoning is preserving organics.

[Golden_Boy187]

SimKoning wrote...

Bobamelius wrote...

If the Catalyst's assumption that all synthetic life will invariably, at some point, decide to wipe out all organic life (which many in this thread have already pointed out doesn't make sense) then in order to reach that conclusion, he must have observed it happening on many occasions, ie, several galaxies have been wiped out by omnicidal AI, spurring someone to create the Reapers.

Think about it though. The Reapers 'police' our galaxy to prevent the rise of omnicidal AIs, and each culling takes several hundred years. The Reaper fleet we know in-game could be doing the same thing to several galaxies in the local cluster in the 50,000-year timeframe.

But the universe is a big place. We already know there are billions of galaxies in the observable universe. Are there a) billions of Reaper armadas throughout the universe 'protecting' organic life? Or perhaps the Catalyst only polices this galaxy and maybe several others nearby.

If A, then ME is pointless anyway because if one galaxy avoids its culling, more Reapers from nearby fleets can be redirected to the Milky Way to finish the culling, and preventative measures can be taken universe-wide to prevent such a thing from happening again.

If B, the Catalyst is only delaying the inevitable as omnicidal AI from galaxies outside the Reapers' sphere of influence will eventually get here and wipe out all organic life anyway. The Catalyst and the Reapers' entire reason for being becomes moot.

Even if Space-Ghost-Child-Hitler-AI-God's claim that some super AI will eventually cause the mass extinction of biological life in a galaxy is valid, then so what? Preventing that from happening would be like some alien species coming to Earth 500 million years ago to prevent Cambrian fauna from evolving into more complex animal species, which of course, would be insane. Not to mention that even if some AI managed to wipe out all the *current* life, that doesn’t mean abiogenesis would cease to happen. There would be new life forms forming almost as often as new star systems. Is this insane AI going to sift through billions of stars to stamp out self replicating polymers any where it sees it? THIS IS STUPID LOL 

And they will have to hurry because once the milky way and the andromeda galaxy merge its going to be even harder to destroy every type of life form. 

[Halo Quea]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Alraiis wrote...

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

I'll point this out one more time; the Reapers are not AI. They have synthetic bodies (they are giant ships) but they are not AI.

They may have wetware/hardware composite brains, but they are still artificial in that they are constructed, designed and intelligent machines, so they are AIs. Why else would they be destroyed along with the Geth during the destruction ending?

They were non-specific about AI; they simply said 'all synthetic' would be destroyed, meaning their mechanical bits would die, so would they; kinda like Shep in a way; or any other organic that needed a pacemaker lol.

I never considered that. lol    But that makes it even dumber doesn't it?   All tech suddenly becomes evil?

[ed87]

The only thing worse than the reasoning behind the reapers is the ending itself

[Genera1Nemesis]

Halo Quea wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Alraiis wrote...

Create synthetics to kill SOME organics to make sure synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

No, it's not much better, but it isn't an outright contradiction.

I'll point this out one more time; the Reapers are not AI. They have synthetic bodies (they are giant ships) but they are not AI.

They may have wetware/hardware composite brains, but they are still artificial in that they are constructed, designed and intelligent machines, so they are AIs. Why else would they be destroyed along with the Geth during the destruction ending?

They were non-specific about AI; they simply said 'all synthetic' would be destroyed, meaning their mechanical bits would die, so would they; kinda like Shep in a way; or any other organic that needed a pacemaker lol.

I never considered that. lol    But that makes it even dumber doesn't it?   All tech suddenly becomes evil?

Not evil, but it is more of a threat if you just outright want to destroy the solution instead of changing it.