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[SimKoning]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

In 1965, I. J. Good first wrote of an "intelligence explosion", suggesting that if machines could even slightly surpass human intellect, they could improve their own designs in ways unforeseen by their designers, and thus recursively augment themselves into far greater intelligences. The first such improvements might be small, but as the machine became more intelligent it would become better at becoming more intelligent, which could lead to a cascade of self-improvements and a sudden surge to superintelligence (or a singularity).

From the above link, just thought it sounded a heck of a lot like EDI's evolution throughout the game.

Yes, there has been many science fiction novels written about the subject. Heck, there is a whole world building project built around an idea that pretty much refutes everything that came out of Ghost kids mouth > http://www.orionsarm.com/

I also suggest you check out Iain M. Banks Culture series > http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Culture

All of this reminds me of why I hate the ending so much...

That Orion's Arm thing looks really cool, i'm going to dig a lot deeper into that lol. Thanks for the link.

You'll find pretty quick that it's way more realistic than Mass Effect ; ). Hell, they provide links to physics papers to back up their ideas. 

[Genera1Nemesis]

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

In 1965, I. J. Good first wrote of an "intelligence explosion", suggesting that if machines could even slightly surpass human intellect, they could improve their own designs in ways unforeseen by their designers, and thus recursively augment themselves into far greater intelligences. The first such improvements might be small, but as the machine became more intelligent it would become better at becoming more intelligent, which could lead to a cascade of self-improvements and a sudden surge to superintelligence (or a singularity).

From the above link, just thought it sounded a heck of a lot like EDI's evolution throughout the game.

Yes, there has been many science fiction novels written about the subject. Heck, there is a whole world building project built around an idea that pretty much refutes everything that came out of Ghost kids mouth > http://www.orionsarm.com/

I also suggest you check out Iain M. Banks Culture series > http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Culture

All of this reminds me of why I hate the ending so much...

That Orion's Arm thing looks really cool, i'm going to dig a lot deeper into that lol. Thanks for the link.

You'll find pretty quick that it's way more realistic than Mass Effect ; ). Hell, they provide links to physics papers to back up their ideas. 

Yeah, but then again Mass Effect is a lot more realistic than other sci-fi out there as well. I've seen way crazier things in sci-fi than what people refer to as'space magic' lol.

[Atkara]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

Yeah, but then again Mass Effect is a lot more realistic than other sci-fi out there as well. I've seen way crazier things in sci-fi than what people refer to as'space magic' lol.

The whole idea is not new. Neither it was introduced by the Mass Effect series for the first time.

The final monologue in "Freespace: The Great War" debates if the Shivans are "The Great Destroyers" or "The Great Preservers", as they would go in, destroy every advanced civilization with subspace technology, then vanish. Humanity survived in the last moment, by destroying the Sol Jump Node.

Sad endings aren't new either: In "Freespace 2", the Shivans decided to turn Capella's main star into a supernova (for reasons unknown) and you had to choose if you'd flee and save yourself, or stay, cover refugee ships as they fled the sector and die from the explosion.

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[SimKoning]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

In 1965, I. J. Good first wrote of an "intelligence explosion", suggesting that if machines could even slightly surpass human intellect, they could improve their own designs in ways unforeseen by their designers, and thus recursively augment themselves into far greater intelligences. The first such improvements might be small, but as the machine became more intelligent it would become better at becoming more intelligent, which could lead to a cascade of self-improvements and a sudden surge to superintelligence (or a singularity).

From the above link, just thought it sounded a heck of a lot like EDI's evolution throughout the game.

Yes, there has been many science fiction novels written about the subject. Heck, there is a whole world building project built around an idea that pretty much refutes everything that came out of Ghost kids mouth > http://www.orionsarm.com/

I also suggest you check out Iain M. Banks Culture series > http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Culture

All of this reminds me of why I hate the ending so much...

That Orion's Arm thing looks really cool, i'm going to dig a lot deeper into that lol. Thanks for the link.

You'll find pretty quick that it's way more realistic than Mass Effect ; ). Hell, they provide links to physics papers to back up their ideas. 

Yeah, but then again Mass Effect is a lot more realistic than other sci-fi out there as well. I've seen way crazier things in sci-fi than what people refer to as'space magic' lol.

Which is a big reason why I like it so much. It's like an updated, way more reaslistic Star Wars. Which is why I'm so angry that they ended 3 the way they did. It's like they took their franchise out back and shot it in the head before it had a chance to grow. 

[Zhijn]

The Angry One wrote...
*snip*

:lol:That picture gets me everytime. LOL!.

[AwesomeDudex64]

 When you put it like this I don't get how people can be fine with this ending, I really don't.

[blaidfiste]

Looking back, the Geth really weren't much of an issue until the Reapers started hacking/indoctrinating them

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

The Reapers do not reap them all. Otherwise humans would have been harvested 50 000 years and the Reapers would be exactly what they defending against. You're argument rings of half-truth.

You're not thinking about it right. The Reapers didn't reap humans 50,000 years ago. But they did 50,000 years later. Humans are will inevitably be exterminated by the Reapers. In fact, any oganic species that advances will be exterminated by the Reapers.

So there are again, two possibilities: (1) abiogenesis, so the galaxy never runs out of organic life; or (2) through repeated cycles, the reapers eventually kill all organic life.

The plan is stupid because the outcome is the same.

Edit:

Or, you know, (3) organic life never advances enough to develop AI, making it all pointless.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[In Exile]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
It is exactly the same underlying logic; they want to wipe out humanity to preserve lesser species. Just like what the reapers do. Humans were that lesser species 50 000 years ago. Now we are one of the advanced ones that threaten our own existence and the existence of the remaining lesser species.

No, it's not the same logic. Because the Reapers never treat the actual cause. The humans, in that movie, are the AI. They're the threat. The paralell to the Reapers would be that they exterminate any mammals that could evolve into an industrial society to prevent ecological catastrophe. It's the preventative stupidity of it all that's glaring.

[Da Don Giovanni]

[Spectre_Shepard]

yeah dumbest thing I've heard in a while

[Genera1Nemesis]

In Exile wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...
It is exactly the same underlying logic; they want to wipe out humanity to preserve lesser species. Just like what the reapers do. Humans were that lesser species 50 000 years ago. Now we are one of the advanced ones that threaten our own existence and the existence of the remaining lesser species.

No, it's not the same logic. Because the Reapers never treat the actual cause. The humans, in that movie, are the AI. They're the threat. The paralell to the Reapers would be that they exterminate any mammals that could evolve into an industrial society to prevent ecological catastrophe. It's the preventative stupidity of it all that's glaring.

As I said, it's just the same basic logic; nowhere near the same methods; but it has the same motive; kill the advanced race that is developing technology that can destroy not only them but the entire world and render it lifeless. It's only interest was in preserving all other life that didn't theaten to destroy everything....yet.

I add the yet because it is entirely possible that another species could evolve to be intelligent like us and who also might develop in much the same manner and threaten the Earth again. Perhaps then that same alien comes back and does the same thing as it did previous; wipes out the advanced organism so that other life has the chance to evolve.

As an interesting note; however; the alien only decides to stop because it develops 'human' emotion; and thus understands the complexity of what human life is like through our ability to create (art, music) coupled with our abiltiy to destroy (nukes, guns, polution) and he sees that we can improve. In reference to how this relates to Mass Effect, Shep represented the 'human' factor; and the games throughout always offered the conciet that we were the 'best' organic life had to offer, as represented by our character; and thus were able to change the inevitable outcomes that were correct before we proved differently.

While the delivery of these themes can be disputed, I can at least understand where Bioware was trying to take this story on a metaphysical level; being obtuse was their downfall; because there are many different perspectives that can view the material in different lights. I'm not saying at all that you're wrong; I've just interpreted it differently than you.

I fully get your points; I'm only trying to provide a basis of understanding the underlying goals of the antagonists (Reapers, catalyst) not bring into question their methods.

[Atkara]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

As an interesting note; however; the alien only decides to stop because it develops 'human' emotion; and thus understands the complexity of what human life is like through our ability to create (art, music) coupled with our abiltiy to destroy (nukes, guns, polution) and he sees that we can improve. In reference to how this relates to Mass Effect, Shep represented the 'human' factor; and the games throughout always offered the conciet that we were the 'best' organic life had to offer, as represented by our character; and thus were able to change the inevitable outcomes that were correct before we proved differently.

Trust me, if there was a Salarian (or take your pick) race and Mass Effect had been developed by a Salarian software company, the 'x' alien would stop in front of the Salarian ability to create, destroy and room for improvement

Modifié par Atkara, 18 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[111987]

blaidfiste wrote...

Looking back, the Geth really weren't much of an issue until the Reapers started hacking/indoctrinating them

Keep in mind the Reapers never hacked or indoctrinated the Geth. Both times they allied with the Reapers, it was by choice. In ME3 it was done in the interest for self-preservation, and in ME1 it was done because the Heretics believed Sovereign was basically a God, but still.

Just clarifying that for ya.

Modifié par 111987, 18 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[PaulSX]

KylieDog wrote...

One questions why the Reapers don't only kill synthetics, if the reasoning is preserving organics.

 Note that Reapers "harvest" (not kill) organic life and use organics just like organics use machines. Each reaper is a "nation" built with organic flesh and minds.

[111987]

origlo wrote...

I understand the (flawed) logic behind the Reapers, but the truth is that what they are doing is killing all organics, no matter how much time it takes. In math when you divide a number by two infinte times you get a zero in the end, and this is exactly what the Reapers are doing. Just think about this - what if the cycle went on for another billion years? galactic resources are not infinte. Eventually organic life would simply fail to develop Mass Effect tech, or worse - stop to evolve at all.

Oh, and since this is my first post on those forums - Yeah, i hate the endings too. ALOT.

Just wanted to point out this isn't true. The galaxy is HUGE. And the current ME races have explored less than 1% of the galaxy, as explained in the Codex.

People sometimes forget how enormous the galaxy is. Resources and planets capable of producing organic are not in short supply.

Modifié par 111987, 18 mars 2012 - 08:02 .

[Halo Quea]

TearForger1 wrote...

Guys. The Starchild was LYING! Its the only thing that makes sense.

Space God Boy does not lie!   He has a magic wand and he can turn all of us into cans of tuna. 

[Tapkomet]

Really, Reapers weren't needed. Protheans created AIs that went rogue? They united and were fighting a WINNING war. Galaxy balanced.

Aggresive Rachni? Galaxy balanced itself by Krogan. Aggresive Krogan? The Galaxy balanced itself again, but without adding any potentially aggresive things. Aggresive Geth? Nope. They aren't.

[Mundas]

The point being, the "star childs" introduction is completely unnecessary and only serves to complicate a man vs machine story. Not to mention his logic is flawed and we as the players are forced to choke down "his" three indistinct choices.

[RShara]

Let me just make a final point before I leave for real.
Infinite loop = not logical
Someone write this into a program
Open
If
Time = 50000
Then Delete File Advanced Species.txt
Create File Advanced Speces.txt

If Time <> 50000
Then set Time = 50000
repeat
end

And see what it does to your computer

A graphic illustration


On to newer threads where my butthurt doesn't come into play

[CavScout]

Genera1Nemesis wrote...

zsom wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

I just want everyone to absorb the title of the thread... and realize how insanely retarded that is.

That's the ending in a nutshell dipped in dog ****.

Please don't praise this premise of a story.

Wrong. The reapers were meant to save organics by harvesting them before they are wiped out by their creations. They would live on as a reaper.

It was even hinted at by Harbi I think:
"We are your salvation through destruction"

Or even better quote "We are your genetic destiny."

It's a tough sell. Folks are so wraped up in saying the Reaper orgins are bad/faulty they have to ignore the game itself to substain their points.

[CavScout]

JPVS wrote...
They don't have millions of organic minds. They have millions of minds, yes, but mostly AI programs. If it were organic minds, there would be stuff like feelings. They have calculus and purpose, no other indication of otherwise.

Dismissing the game's history and inserting your own won't allow you to win this argument....

[lrrose]

The Reapers don't consider dissolving people to make more Reapers to be killing, instead, they view it as ascending to a higher plane of existence. Their motive makes sense if you view it from that perspective. They're actions are still horrific, but they are somewhat logical.

[Archon-god]

I think you guys are missing the point...sure it sounds dumb, even I think so but listen:
The Reapers were created to actually PRESERVE organic life. If they weren't then they would have just wiped out everyone the first time around, and BOOM, there goes organic life. Now that's not what they've been doing. They harvested, just like Starchild said, advanced civilizations, and left the young, unadvanced races alone, so that they could live on, and preserved the harvested civilizations as Reapers. Now remember what we learned from Mass Effect 2: Reapers aren't completely synthetic, they are made of BOTH synthetic AND organic material. no wonder Sovereign said in Mass Effect 1: "We are the pinnacle of organic evolution." Because they are, in a sense. Now here comes the important, thing : The Reapers left unadvanced species alone, if these so called "pure synthetics" (e.g. Geth) we're created, they would/could dominate and COMPLETELY wipe out organic life all over the galaxy, and no one would be able to do anything about it, so organic life would totally disappear...just think about it. I think it makes sense.

[Dessalines]

The point is this that solution boils down to that advance organic species will create synthetic life, synthetic life will rise up and destroy all organic life, so the reapers destroy some organic life. so all organic life will not be destroyed, so that younger organic life can flourished, so they can be destroyed in 50,000 years. Here are the problems with the argument.
1)Geth and EDI are working with the quarians. The Reapers have been watching species evolve that was Sovereign was job. You are tell me that in countless cycles that the Reapers were aound, there was not one species that was able to work together with synthetics untl now. They did not realize their soluton was falter until an organic was able to reach the inner areas of the Citadel, and someone was able to attatched a device to it that maybe there was another way. Really?
2)The Reapers kill creatures, and transformed into creatures that are more mention than human. Remember Mordin's speech are about the Collector's about them having no art. They used those species to further their goals of wiping out civillizations.Collectors were kidnapping and buying slaves long before the events of Mass Effect 2. The Rachni War was called by the Reapers. Read the codex, husks are cybernetic human flesh, so there is no life being preserved.
3)Mass relays are the only way any creature organic or synthetic could wipe out all life on the galaxy, and they were built by the Reapers.
4)The only example of synethic creatures in the Mass Effect universe capable of wiping out organic life on a massive scale is the Reapers. The Geth only attacked non quarians, because of the Reapers. Even Javik stated they were beating back the synthetic life that rose up in his cycle, until the Reapers came and turned the tide.
5) The geth were giving Reaper tech to joined with the Reapers in the destruction of organic life. They wasn't destroyed. There cities were not attacked. They were giving upgrades which they choose to accept. So synthetic life which they are trying to save organic life from is giving upgrades to help them to destroy organic life?
So in summary it comes down to this. Reapers being the only creatures that have proven they can wipe out organic life is a massive scale created the technology that would alllow synthetic life to wipe out all organic life,m but prevent that from happenning they wipe out advance organic llife, so they won't create synthetic life that will wipe out all organic life which only would happen if synthetic life used the technology which the Reaper created.
As I stated before if you wanted to stop the cycle of organic life not building synthetic life, you would just wipe out synthetic life. If I am afraid my child is going to burn down the house, I don't destroy my son, and I don't give him news means to create fire either. I put the matches away.
I think for advance species like the Reapers, you would think that would have a betters mission statement something a bit more logical.