613 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedra Sanguine]

They're Reapers. They're synthetic. I'll let you work out the rest.

[MrGPhantome]

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
*snip

Again, Semantics.

Not semantics but details crucial to understanding the ending.

It is semantics because you are trying to add in the perpective of what life is, of whether or not reapers are "killing people"

The core premise is still proven correct and flawed: Sythetics are "killing" organics to make sure synthetics don't "kill" organics.

[111987]

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

[alek2702]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

The perspective of the characters don't matter.

The core problem with the ending of Mass Effect 3 is the premise of the ending.

Create synthetics to kill organics to make sure synthetics don't kill organics.

That's the problem, the semantics behind the characters motivations don't overshadow the core problem.

Except the premise you are presenting isn't entirely true, voiding your claim.

Obviously Bioware did bad job with the narrative because that is what many players seem to be getting from it. May be if they would of kept that part in where you got to ask questions of space boy we might have understood better. Oh ya Casey said cut that out.

Yeah, I'm sure Kubrick should have had a voice-over at the end of 2001, explaining what happened to Bowman. That would make for such a better film...

[Tasker]

Instead of the reapers, wouldn't it have been better to just stick a mod in the mass relays that sends out a constant signal that nobody can detect - that prevents synthetic AI from functioning?

If you can never get something to work, then would you keep trying?

[JPN17]

This circular logic is apparently beyond our comprehension.

Modifié par JPN17, 18 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[Heathen Pride]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

If the organic minds are conjoined, explain harbinger. He's a pretty classic villain. And he's out for Shepard's blood. And he's a pretty unified entity. He doesn't behave or act like a *race* just like an individual, and a rather nasty one at that.

If that's ascension, then no thanks!

A collective conscioussness is a unified entity. As Legion says: "One ship. One will. Many minds."

And yet no control at all for those minds as we are told they are controlled by space boy.

Right on, was just going to say that. Space Boy controls them, they shoud be mindless then. Sovereign and Harbinger seem to have personality though.

[FreshRevenge]

This to me was the most Asinine theories of the ending when the StarChild was speaking. Synthetics are in charge of the galaxy future. This is one of the reason I am so dissatisfied over the ending because my Shepard would of never agreed to any of the choices given by the stupid brat of a starchild. I really hope they fix this because I wanted to destroy the reapers not to play servant to some starchild!

[Lozark]

And those giant lasers the reapers fire never kill anyone. And that they use every race there is to make a reaper, they don't just wipe out a race and slowly desecrate the remains like they did the Collectors. Wait.

Unfortunately, "we make synthetics to enslave and wipe-out organics so that organics wouldn't be killed by synthetics" really breaks up the flow of the joke.

[111987]

MrGPhantome wrote...

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
*snip

Again, Semantics.

Not semantics but details crucial to understanding the ending.

It is semantics because you are trying to add in the perpective of what life is, of whether or not reapers are "killing people"

The core premise is still proven correct and flawed: Sythetics are "killing" organics to make sure synthetics don't "kill" organics.

No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

[MrGPhantome]

alek2702 wrote...
Yeah, I'm sure Kubrick should have had a voice-over at the end of 2001, explaining what happened to Bowman. That would make for such a better film...

Your going to compare 2001 with Mass Effect 3... 

Hah, that's fresh.

[RShara]

So with many minds, all or a good chunk of them need to agree to make an action happen, right? But Harbinger never hesitates or seems to need to think about his actions. So it seems more like one mind, one body, one will. Even Legion takes a moment or two to get a concensus from the geth.

And also. So every civilization (or most of the individuals in each civilization) in the xxxxxxx number of years since the Reapers were created, all completely and utterly agree that this cycle is right?

And ascension is supposed to be a higher state of being, not a pissier state of being. Harbinger and friends just seem really pissy.

Edit:  Thanks for reminding me that Starchild controls the Reapers.  So it's basically NO mind, NO will, one body.  How is that saving?

Modifié par RShara, 18 mars 2012 - 11:01 .

[Web Access Card]

Shepard was defeated, in the end, not by Harbinger or the full force of the Reaper threat. He was defeated by his failure to take an introductory course in Philosophy.

[MrGPhantome]

111987 wrote...
No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

[cotheer]

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

keyword

[alek2702]

MrGPhantome wrote...

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
*snip

Again, Semantics.

Not semantics but details crucial to understanding the ending.

It is semantics because you are trying to add in the perpective of what life is, of whether or not reapers are "killing people"

The core premise is still proven correct and flawed: Sythetics are "killing" organics to make sure synthetics don't "kill" organics.

Allright, scratch the harvest/ascend angle and you still come up with:

Create synthetic-organic hybrids to kill advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

It's not as moronic as you make it out to be.

Modifié par alek2702, 18 mars 2012 - 11:06 .

[Lozark]

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
*snip

Again, Semantics.

Not semantics but details crucial to understanding the ending.

It is semantics because you are trying to add in the perpective of what life is, of whether or not reapers are "killing people"

The core premise is still proven correct and flawed: Sythetics are "killing" organics to make sure synthetics don't "kill" organics.

Allright, scratch the harvest/ascend angle and you are come up with:

Create synthetic-organic hybrids to kill advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

It's not as moronic as you make it out to be.

And they don't just kill synthetics or educate organics because...?  They've been at this for untold thousands of years; we shouldn't be able to come up with better solutions for them off the tops of our heads while also applying memes to their methods.

[MrGPhantome]

alek2702 wrote...

Allright, scratch the harvest/ascend angle and you are come up with:

Create synthetic-organic hybrids to kill advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

It's not as moronic as you make it out to be.

SEMANTICS.

Your just adding adjectives to try and rationalize a completely flawed premise.

[111987]

Heathen Pride wrote...

A Paperback Hero wrote...

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

If the organic minds are conjoined, explain harbinger. He's a pretty classic villain. And he's out for Shepard's blood. And he's a pretty unified entity. He doesn't behave or act like a *race* just like an individual, and a rather nasty one at that.

If that's ascension, then no thanks!

A collective conscioussness is a unified entity. As Legion says: "One ship. One will. Many minds."

And yet no control at all for those minds as we are told they are controlled by space boy.

Right on, was just going to say that. Space Boy controls them, they shoud be mindless then. Sovereign and Harbinger seem to have personality though.

It doesn't say whether or not the Catalyst controls them at all times, can assume control when it wants to, or simply acts as a guiding force.

The fact that Harbinger and Soverwign have distinct personalities, and that Sovereign describes itself as independent, strongly suggest they are not directly controlled by the Catalyst, at least the majority of the time.

Keep in mind I am not arguing in favor of existence as a Reaper.

[sadako]

When everything is speculated.
You create more speculation....

It's a REAPER LIE! You've all been indoctrinated!

All they want was really to harvest organic material to make little cute tiny baby reapers.

That's how they procreate!

:wizard::wizard::wizard:

[alek2702]

double post

Modifié par alek2702, 18 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[Karait]

Still, if Reapers apparently care about organics enough to bother with coming and wiping them out every 50k years so the don't get annihilated why wouldn't they just wipe synthetics, warn organics, co-habitate with organics? What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics? How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

That theory given in Mass Effect 3 is not contradictory, but it definately is not a sufficient explanation to a puzzle which fans tried to solve for 5 years. And definately not "beyond our comprehension", no point why Sovereign couldn't tell us about it on Virmire.

Shabby work by BioWare. A moderately talented 10-year old could do better.

Modifié par Karait, 18 mars 2012 - 11:03 .

[111987]

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

[xxskyshadowxx]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Close but not quite. Create synthetics to kill organics in order to preserve life.

That's not what is presented in the narrative.

It's litteraly: Create synthetics to kill organics to make sure synthetics don't kill organics.

Actually it's: Create synthetic-organic hybrids to harvest/ascend advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

Somehow most of the whiners forget about these details....

I like how organics a don't get a general vote to not want to be 'harvested' for ascension. After harvesting they then do not exist. If not existing is ascending then damn. Why don't we all just kill ourselves now.

Oh ya, thats right I am suppose to be taking this at face value from a space magic boy. I think the fact that he looks like a boy is what lowers the credibility of the deliverer even more. You think he would come out in the form of Hacket or Anderson, an image that Shepard already trusts. I am surprised with Shep half dead and probably delirious, didn't just lose his mind and jump off the crucible at that point.

I just want my Shepard to be able to say "eff it" and shoot herself in the head. The endikng won't change, but at least the genocide won't be my Shepard's fault.

[Heathen Pride]

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

I think Space Boy's programming is logical fallacy....falls under slippery slope. Just because advanced AI is created does not mean it will inevitably lead to destruction of all organics.