613 réponses à ce sujet

[MrGPhantome]

111987 wrote...

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

SPACE-FARING and OTHER are just abjectives. They don't change the contridiction that is inherent with the premise. So stop trying.

At the end of the day; Create synthetics to kill organics to make sure synthetics don't kill organics.

Modifié par MrGPhantome, 18 mars 2012 - 11:06 .

[piemanz]

Just like to point out that saving organics isn't actually their motivation. The Catalyst even says it's its solution to "Chaos", and that they found a way to "restore order" for the next cycle. Synthetics rebelling against and eventually destroying organics is only a product of that chaos.

Modifié par piemanz, 18 mars 2012 - 11:06 .

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Okay.
But they do kill ALL organics.  Eventually.  This cycle or the next, or the one after that.  No matter what.  So what's the point here?

[111987]

Karait wrote...
What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics?

They have organic minds.

Karait wrote...

How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

The Catalyst never said synthetics were evil, or that they couldn't cooperate. All he said was that eventually, there will be conflict between the two. Always. The Catalyst doesn't say it will always be the synthetics who cause the conflict, just that there WILL be conflict. Which there has been.

[111987]

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Okay.
But they do kill ALL organics.  Eventually.  This cycle or the next, or the one after that.  No matter what.  So what's the point here?

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

[A Paperback Hero]

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

And forcing organics to be turned into ascended mind goo that is forced into a collective conscious is the answer. Riiiiiight. Isn't that the way of all life. Have a disagreement and fight about it here and there and then pat each others back and move on.

The fact that they broker peace shows the potential for good relation. A break down wouldn't mean destruction with an absolute certainty.

Instead reaper boy sends in the army to force his will and continually destroy every new higher intellect entity as the sprout up. This may not be full blown galactic genocide, but it's still basically killing everything in the galaxy one at a time. No point in existence if there is no chance for the existence to continue to evolve and its stopped short every time. He might as well just destroy all life and be done with it. If his statistics are true and it happens every time anyway what is the point of life under this premise.

[HrznKn]

How is killing advanced organics every 50k years better than just having all organics wiped out by uncontrolled synthetics anyway? either way, organics have no future. what does an extra 50k years matter on a galactic timescale.

Modifié par HrznKn, 18 mars 2012 - 11:09 .

[111987]

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

SPACE-FARING and OTHER are just abjectives. They don't change the contridiction that is inherent with the premise. So stop trying.

At the end of the day; Create synthetics to kill organics to make sure synthetics don't kill organics.

Okay, this clearly isn't going anywhere...we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MrGPhantome]

111987 wrote...

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Semantics. Your trying to define "killing" as havest. At the end of the day they still "kill"

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

Karait wrote...
What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics?

They have organic minds.

Karait wrote...

How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

The Catalyst never said synthetics were evil, or that they couldn't cooperate. All he said was that eventually, there will be conflict between the two. Always. The Catalyst doesn't say it will always be the synthetics who cause the conflict, just that there WILL be conflict. Which there has been.

There are conflicts among organics too.  They might as well say, they wipe out all Space Faring Organics to prevent Space Faring Organics from wiping out not-yet-Space Faring Organics.

Which would actually make slightly more sense given what we've seen of the galaxy--Shepard fighting to constantly unite the galaxy against a common foe (which is usually the fastest way to unite warring factions).

[111987]

HrznKn wrote...


How is killing advanced organics every 50k years better than just having all organics wiped out by uncontrolled synthetics anyway? either way, organics have no future. what does an extra 50k years matter on a galactic timescale.

According to the Reapers, because at least the old life is still preserved in Reaper form, which is apparently a fantastic existence.

Once again, I am not arguing that the Reapers are right. Their solution is horrific.

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No. Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Okay.
But they do kill ALL organics.  Eventually.  This cycle or the next, or the one after that.  No matter what.  So what's the point here?

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Which then get killed.

[Voutsis1982]

All synthetics will inevitably kill organics. Said the synthetic.

After spending three games actively trying to recruit synthetics to kill organics, and failing at it.

And then the synthetic offers three solutions, none of which actually prevent the future development of the dastardly killer AI that it was supposedly programmed to be prevent.

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

HrznKn wrote...


How is killing advanced organics every 50k years better than just having all organics wiped out by uncontrolled synthetics anyway? either way, organics have no future. what does an extra 50k years matter on a galactic timescale.

According to the Reapers, because at least the old life is still preserved in Reaper form, which is apparently a fantastic existence.

Once again, I am not arguing that the Reapers are right. Their solution is horrific.

And doesn't make a lot of sense   It's not a solution.  It's a delay.

[111987]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

And forcing organics to be turned into ascended mind goo that is forced into a collective conscious is the answer. Riiiiiight. Isn't that the way of all life. Have a disagreement and fight about it here and there and then pat each others back and move on.

The fact that they broker peace shows the potential for good relation. A break down wouldn't mean destruction with an absolute certainty.

Instead reaper boy sends in the army to force his will and continually destroy every new higher intellect entity as the sprout up. This may not be full blown galactic genocide, but it's still basically killing everything in the galaxy one at a time. No point in existence if there is no chance for the existence to continue to evolve and its stopped short every time. He might as well just destroy all life and be done with it. If his statistics are true and it happens every time anyway what is the point of life under this premise.

I never said the Reapers were right. You are making assumptions about what I am saying that simply aren't true.

[dannati]

It's specious logic, at best. An argument can be made that the cycle is a perversion of some earlier, more coherent plan, but without being able to interrogate the Starchild, there's no way to know.

[Heathen Pride]

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

Karait wrote...
What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics?

They have organic minds.

Karait wrote...

How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

The Catalyst never said synthetics were evil, or that they couldn't cooperate. All he said was that eventually, there will be conflict between the two. Always. The Catalyst doesn't say it will always be the synthetics who cause the conflict, just that there WILL be conflict. Which there has been.

There are conflicts among organics too.  They might as well say, they wipe out all Space Faring Organics to prevent Space Faring Organics from wiping out not-yet-Space Faring Organics.

Which would actually make slightly more sense given what we've seen of the galaxy--Shepard fighting to constantly unite the galaxy against a common foe (which is usually the fastest way to unite warring factions).

The Rachni almost did the reaper's job for them; they'd have wiped out all races but their own if the Krogan didn't stop them and they're organic. Might as well just get it over with and annihilate all organic and synthetic life to quell the "chaos" for good.

[saracen16]

Heathen Pride wrote...

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

I think Space Boy's programming is logical fallacy....falls under slippery slope. Just because advanced AI is created does not mean it will inevitably lead to destruction of all organics.

I disagree: the Quarians and the AI's fought in the Prothean's time are supporting examples towards Starchild's logic. Even recall what Legion said: organics fear us. You find out in ME3, if you were paying attention, that the geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who feared and hated their own creation for being independent, for being out of their control. Therefore, the AI's, of sufficient intelligence, enacted their own programming of self-preservation to defend themselves, even if it means the extermination of all organic life.

That, and Project Overlord, which was an attempt by Cerberus to CONTROL or DOMINATE AI that turned horribly wrong.

[111987]

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Which then get killed.

No, that new life gets 'preserved' as well...

[CavScout]

alek2702 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Close but not quite. Create synthetics to kill organics in order to preserve life.

That's not what is presented in the narrative.

It's litteraly: Create synthetics to kill organics to make sure synthetics don't kill organics.

Actually it's: Create synthetic-organic hybrids to harvest/ascend advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

Somehow most of the whiners forget about these details....

Common sense won't stop them.

[RShara]

Didn't we agree to call a duck a duck, and say they get killed?

[alek2702]

MrGPhantome wrote...

alek2702 wrote...

Allright, scratch the harvest/ascend angle and you still come up with:

Create synthetic-organic hybrids to kill advanced organics to make sure uncontrolled synthetics don't kill ALL organic life.

It's not as moronic as you make it out to be.

SEMANTICS.

Your just adding adjectives to try and rationalize a completely flawed premise.

So, Luke Skywalker kills people to save people from being killed. NONSENSE!1!!!!

I could do that with every plot and claim the rest is just semantics and unnecessary adjectives.

[saracen16]

Heathen Pride wrote...

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

Karait wrote...
What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics?

They have organic minds.

Karait wrote...

How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

The Catalyst never said synthetics were evil, or that they couldn't cooperate. All he said was that eventually, there will be conflict between the two. Always. The Catalyst doesn't say it will always be the synthetics who cause the conflict, just that there WILL be conflict. Which there has been.

There are conflicts among organics too.  They might as well say, they wipe out all Space Faring Organics to prevent Space Faring Organics from wiping out not-yet-Space Faring Organics.

Which would actually make slightly more sense given what we've seen of the galaxy--Shepard fighting to constantly unite the galaxy against a common foe (which is usually the fastest way to unite warring factions).

The Rachni almost did the reaper's job for them; they'd have wiped out all races but their own if the Krogan didn't stop them and they're organic. Might as well just get it over with and annihilate all organic and synthetic life to quell the "chaos" for good.

The Reapers were "preserving" organics, leaving the younger civilizations alone. The Rachni would have wiped them out. Big difference.

[111987]

Heathen Pride wrote...

The Rachni almost did the reaper's job for them; they'd have wiped out all races but their own if the Krogan didn't stop them and they're organic. Might as well just get it over with and annihilate all organic and synthetic life to quell the "chaos" for good.

The Rachni were indoctrinated, meaning they were controlled by the Reapers. Thus it was done for some purpose. Maybe it was Sovereign's first attempt to reach the Citadel, maybe it wasn't.

[RShara]

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.