613 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

The Rachni almost did the reaper's job for them; they'd have wiped out all races but their own if the Krogan didn't stop them and they're organic. Might as well just get it over with and annihilate all organic and synthetic life to quell the "chaos" for good.

The Rachni were indoctrinated, meaning they were controlled by the Reapers. Thus it was done for some purpose. Maybe it was Sovereign's first attempt to reach the Citadel, maybe it wasn't.

The original Rachni, cause of the Rachni Wars, weren't indoctrinated.

[SamFlagg]

111987 wrote...

Karait wrote...
What makes Reapers different from the "usual" synthetics that want to wipe organics?

They have organic minds.

Karait wrote...

How come Geth make peace with Quarians despite apparent "evil" nature of synthetics? I could go on.

The Catalyst never said synthetics were evil, or that they couldn't cooperate. All he said was that eventually, there will be conflict between the two. Always. The Catalyst doesn't say it will always be the synthetics who cause the conflict, just that there WILL be conflict. Which there has been.

He says there will be conflict and the organics will always lose.  Seeing that there is still organic life unless the reapers come from a galaxy where that happened and all organic life was wiped out, it seems that they come and reap based on a premise that hasn't been reexamined in a couple billion years.  Heck maybe the reapers think of themselves as hybrid synthetic organics who are the peaks of restraint, they can keep themselves from harvesting "all" life, but the rest of those synthetics, through every cycle simply weren't going to do that.

Heck in the Protheans cycle it sounded like once they rounded up all the possible troops to fight the synthetics they would've been able to win.  You know if it weren't for the reapers showing up.  Not only that whos to say the reapers weren't just once again getting a large group of Synthetics to do their bidding.

You know reapers, of course synthetics are going to exterminate organics when you keep recruiting them to do so.

[MrGPhantome]

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

Modifié par MrGPhantome, 18 mars 2012 - 11:17 .

[Heathen Pride]

saracen16 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

I think Space Boy's programming is logical fallacy....falls under slippery slope. Just because advanced AI is created does not mean it will inevitably lead to destruction of all organics.

I disagree: the Quarians and the AI's fought in the Prothean's time are supporting examples towards Starchild's logic. Even recall what Legion said: organics fear us. You find out in ME3, if you were paying attention, that the geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who feared and hated their own creation for being independent, for being out of their control. Therefore, the AI's, of sufficient intelligence, enacted their own programming of self-preservation to defend themselves, even if it means the extermination of all organic life.

That, and Project Overlord, which was an attempt by Cerberus to CONTROL or DOMINATE AI that turned horribly wrong.

The Quarians and Geth can broker peace which is an example in the opposite direction of what Space Boy thinks. I think Project Overlord does not count as an A.I. It was just an autistic hooked into a computer in attempt to control the Geth..I believe.

[CavScout]

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

[MrGPhantome]

dbl post

Modifié par MrGPhantome, 18 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[RShara]

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

[CavScout]

MrGPhantome wrote...

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

The Reaper reason is fine.

[alek2702]

MrGPhantome wrote...

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

I guess Star Wars needs a new ending too?

[A Paperback Hero]

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Semantics. Your trying to define "killing" as havest. At the end of the day they still "kill"

Totally agree the story has so much more point when the Reapers had their own motive of collecting a new intelligent galaxy and assimilating them for their own benefit. This shows true motivation that is actually believable in a fantasy world. They want to continue to take in new entities to further themselves and continue to be the dominant force in the galaxy. BAM! perfectly legitimate makes sense, I see why they are doing it.

When you try to add in space boy and then have him essentially say "I kill you for you own good" it completely voids the whole idea. Now he is playing space jesus with new life and what is his motivation at this point really? I fail to see where his charity is as soon as he says "I kill for your ascension bro! Don't you get it?"

The writer and Casey tried to go for some high 'art' omg thats so deep dude ending, and instead they created citadel sized contradiction that is hardly a valid reason. Hence Deus Ex Machina. Where was this motivation this whole time? It wasn't there. They threw it in last minute instead of just letting the ending play out naturally Reaper v. Intergalactic Civilization. A perfect video game resolution with lots of video game opportunity. Lots of themes about life and the struggle for survival right there that would of made this the greatest narrrative in video game history.

Modifié par A Paperback Hero, 18 mars 2012 - 11:19 .

[CavScout]

Heathen Pride wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

Not to mention EDI's love for Joker, and the Quarians and Geth possibly brokering peace disproves Space Boy's theory.

Not really. The fact that they are currently cooperating doesn't mean they will always cooperate. Down the line, they could always fight again.

The Starchild's logic can't really be disproven. It can be considered flawed, but you can't really disprove it. And presumably he has evidence garned from thousands of cycles supporting his assertions.

I think Space Boy's programming is logical fallacy....falls under slippery slope. Just because advanced AI is created does not mean it will inevitably lead to destruction of all organics.

I disagree: the Quarians and the AI's fought in the Prothean's time are supporting examples towards Starchild's logic. Even recall what Legion said: organics fear us. You find out in ME3, if you were paying attention, that the geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who feared and hated their own creation for being independent, for being out of their control. Therefore, the AI's, of sufficient intelligence, enacted their own programming of self-preservation to defend themselves, even if it means the extermination of all organic life.

That, and Project Overlord, which was an attempt by Cerberus to CONTROL or DOMINATE AI that turned horribly wrong.

The Quarians and Geth can broker peace which is an example in the opposite direction of what Space Boy thinks. I think Project Overlord does not count as an A.I. It was just an autistic hooked into a computer in attempt to control the Geth..I believe.

Peace at a specific periond of time doesn't mean peace will be everlasting. I simply point to 1918, peace between France/UK and Germany....

[RShara]

CavScout wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

The Reaper reason is fine.

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No.
Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill
space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Okay.
But
they do kill ALL organics.  Eventually.  This cycle or the next, or the
one after that.  No matter what.  So what's the point here?

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Which then get killed.

[111987]

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are never presented as the good guys. You don't have to agree with them at all. That's what the Destroy ending is for.

[Ventasmentos]

I have always considered Reapers organics, but I guess they are synthetic in that they are artificially created.

The Rachni Wars could support the decision of creating reapers, letting the more primitive spieces evolve, since the Rachni would have destroyed or strongly affected everything on its way. And I wouldn't wonder if the reapers did have something to do with the Rachni Wars, just as they had something to do with the Alliance/Cerberus-conflict as well. As far as I have understood, Rachnis are meant to be "supervised" by a Rachni Queen, controlling this single unit might be enough for the Reapers.

Modifié par Ventasmentos, 18 mars 2012 - 11:23 .

[CavScout]

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

[111987]

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

The Rachni almost did the reaper's job for them; they'd have wiped out all races but their own if the Krogan didn't stop them and they're organic. Might as well just get it over with and annihilate all organic and synthetic life to quell the "chaos" for good.

The Rachni were indoctrinated, meaning they were controlled by the Reapers. Thus it was done for some purpose. Maybe it was Sovereign's first attempt to reach the Citadel, maybe it wasn't.

The original Rachni, cause of the Rachni Wars, weren't indoctrinated.

Yes they were. Replay ME1 and ME2.

[Paparob]

Do you guys think that a freshly minted Reaper ever just freaks the Hell out and tries to kill everything around it because of the abomination it has become? If its really a unity of minds from a species than I'd imagine unified or no they still really hate the Reapers. Maybe they have some process to induce "Reaper" thought patterns in it, but you'd think once in a blue moon they'd make a lemon. I realize its off topic but the way Reapers are created were brought up a few times.

[RShara]

...
Rachni Wars

[cotheer]

If disintegrating people into genetic material they can use for themselves is "preserving", then i hate to see their bad side. <_<

MrGPhantome wrote...

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

^This

[Heathen Pride]

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Only Space Boy's logic is fallacy, slippery slope. It doesn't matter how many cycles had out of control AI conflicts, it does not mean every cycle will.

[KONG33]

Warden130 wrote...

The Reapers see it as preserving us. They don't care about saving individuals, only about saving the species as a whole. So they grind us up for our genetic material and make a new reaper to store us in so they can preserve us. Seems insane for us but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, atleast for the Reapers/Catalyst.

But I don't want to be jelly for the god childs toast.

[A Paperback Hero]

Ventasmentos wrote...

I have always considered Reapers organics, but I guess they are synthetic in that they are artificially created.

The Rachni Wars could support the decision of creating reapers, letting the more primitive spieces evolve, since the Rachni would have destroyed or strongly affected everything on its way.

The Rachni almost did destroy the galaxy and they were brought back into balance by the other races of the galaxy. particularly Krogan if you take the history in carefully. Bam! Universe balanced itself. No point for Reapers to intervene in this way.

Modifié par A Paperback Hero, 18 mars 2012 - 11:23 .

[MalevoIence]

Wait..... thought Reapers were both synthetic and organic, using the us to create themselves, hence the human reaper

[Rune-Chan]

Warden130 wrote...

The Reapers see it as preserving us. They don't care about saving individuals, only about saving the species as a whole. So they grind us up for our genetic material and make a new reaper to store us in so they can preserve us. Seems insane for us but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, atleast for the Reapers/Catalyst.

Oh, absolutely, from the Reaper perspective it does make sense, no question.

The issue is, why the f**k does Shepard accept it and do what they say? There is no logical reason that Shepard would agree that melding synthetic and organic life would be the right thing to do.

Yet apparently the Synthesis option is something they might consider.

[Heathen Pride]

MalevoIence wrote...

Wait..... thought Reapers were both synthetic and organic, using the us to create themselves, hence the human reaper

Yeah..I suppose they are. But they're controlled by Space Boy as we learn at the end, so they may as well be mindless golems that bend to the will of Space Boy.