613 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

This is why you shouldn't rely on the wikis for everything.

www.youtube.com/watch-ME2 Rachni Queen Message

www.youtube.com/watch-ME1 Rachni Queen Conversation, at the part where Rachni Queen implies indoctrination

[CavScout]

Heathen Pride wrote...

CavScout wrote...
They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Only Space Boy's logic is fallacy, slippery slope. It doesn't matter how many cycles had out of control AI conflicts, it does not mean every cycle will.

You don't know what a fallacy is apparently.

[RShara]

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Okay, I will concede that the Destroy option mitigates a lot of that.  But Shepard silently going along with the choices implies that he believes the justification.  Anyway this is off topic.

Edit:  What about my other question?

Modifié par RShara, 18 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[111987]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Warden130 wrote...

The Reapers see it as preserving us. They don't care about saving individuals, only about saving the species as a whole. So they grind us up for our genetic material and make a new reaper to store us in so they can preserve us. Seems insane for us but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, atleast for the Reapers/Catalyst.

Oh, absolutely, from the Reaper perspective it does make sense, no question.

The issue is, why the f**k does Shepard accept it and do what they say? There is no logical reason that Shepard would agree that melding synthetic and organic life would be the right thing to do.

Yet apparently the Synthesis option is something they might consider.

You don't have to accept what they say. You can choose the destruction ending, or the control ending as well...

[Ventasmentos]

A Paperback Hero wrote...

Ventasmentos wrote...

I have always considered Reapers organics, but I guess they are synthetic in that they are artificially created.

The Rachni Wars could support the decision of creating reapers, letting the more primitive spieces evolve, since the Rachni would have destroyed or strongly affected everything on its way.

The Rachni almost did destroy the galaxy and they were brought back into balance by the other races of the galaxy. particularly Krogan if you take the history in carefully. Bam! Universe balanced itself. No point for Reapers to intervene in this way.

Sorry, I forgot to add my last point when submitting the post. Maybe they *were* indoctrinated, since a single queen would be enough to gain the reapers an army of Rachni.

But yes, the Krogan did put them down, only to be the next threat to the galaxy which was finally concluded by the Salarians developing the genocide.

[A Paperback Hero]

Heathen Pride wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

Wait..... thought Reapers were both synthetic and organic, using the us to create themselves, hence the human reaper

Yeah..I suppose they are. But they're controlled by Space Boy as we learn at the end, so they may as well be mindless golems that bend to the will of Space Boy.

Truef

No free will = what's the point. Story was perfectly legitimate when reapers just wanted to assimilate new species for their own gain. Makes way more sense then space jesus boy "Kill you cause its good for you".

[wombat_stalker]

I'm perfectly fine with the Reaper's logic not making sense. They're the villains, after all. And their software hasn't gotten patched for a few million years.

[RShara]

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

This is why you shouldn't rely on the wikis for everything.

www.youtube.com/watch-ME2 Rachni Queen Message

www.youtube.com/watch-ME1 Rachni Queen Conversation, at the part where Rachni Queen implies indoctrination

lol I remembered the ME2 one but I was thinking it was for Reapers incoming.  Didn't remember the 1st one at all.  Thanks.

[MrGPhantome]

CavScout wrote...

The Reaper reason is fine.

Didn't read the comment I see.

[A Paperback Hero]

wombat_stalker wrote...

I'm perfectly fine with the Reaper's logic not making sense. They're the villains, after all. And their software hasn't gotten patched for a few million years.

LOL! true space boy OS is probably really outdated.

[RShara]

wombat_stalker wrote...

I'm perfectly fine with the Reaper's logic not making sense. They're the villains, after all. And their software hasn't gotten patched for a few million years.

I think we're trying to convince people that the Reaper's logic doesn't make sense

[Heathen Pride]

CavScout wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

CavScout wrote...
They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Only Space Boy's logic is fallacy, slippery slope. It doesn't matter how many cycles had out of control AI conflicts, it does not mean every cycle will.

You don't know what a fallacy is apparently.

"A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step
leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant
effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope
sliding all the way to the bottom."

Space Boy is programmed to think that the creation of AI inevitably leads to AI wiping out all organic life, which cannot be proven, especially since every cycle is different. Space Boy's logic is faulty.

[CavScout]

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

This is why you shouldn't rely on the wikis for everything.

www.youtube.com/watch-ME2 Rachni Queen Message

www.youtube.com/watch-ME1 Rachni Queen Conversation, at the part where Rachni Queen implies indoctrination

You miss the part when asked if the Reapers and the answer is "I can't say for sure..."

Speculation....

[MrGPhantome]

Again...

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE CHARACTERS THINK!

The problem is not a character perspective problem, it's a writing problem.

You can't write a good story with such a terrible premise.

Modifié par MrGPhantome, 18 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[A Paperback Hero]

Heathen Pride wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Heathen Pride wrote...

CavScout wrote...
They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Only Space Boy's logic is fallacy, slippery slope. It doesn't matter how many cycles had out of control AI conflicts, it does not mean every cycle will.

You don't know what a fallacy is apparently.

"A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step
leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant
effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope
sliding all the way to the bottom."

Space Boy is programmed to think that the creation of AI inevitably leads to AI wiping out all organic life, which cannot be proven, especially since every cycle is different. Space Boy's logic is faulty.

pwn't.

[RShara]

CavScout wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

The whole point of this thread is to illustrate that the ending needs a whole new premise, period.

Apparently a large number of you need this spelled out.

You can add details like Harvesting... Ohh they are "harvesting" the organics...

Or try to specify them as space faring... Ohh we only "harvest" the "space faring" organics.

And even then, they are preserved... Ohh we don't kill we "preserve" the "space faring" organics that we "havest"

The details don't matter, The premise remains the same which is a huge contradiction.

The Reaper reason is fine.

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

111987 wrote...

MrGPhantome wrote...

111987 wrote...
No.
Even if you want to use kill, this is how it should be; Synthetics kill
space-faring organics to make sure synthetics don't kill all organics.

There is a huge difference.

there is no difference, YOUR STILL KILLING ORGANICS.

I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Okay.
But
they do kill ALL organics.  Eventually.  This cycle or the next, or the
one after that.  No matter what.  So what's the point here?

They harvest advanced species, preserving them in Reaper form whilst making way for new life.

Which then get killed.

So nothing actually gets saved.

Needing organics to create new Reapers to perpetuate their race and repopulate their armies makes a lot more sense.

[Trackrtar]

This was the biggest WTF moment for me during the ending.

[Tasker]

111987 wrote...


I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and ...



Nope, don't get your point...  Wether it's this cycle or the next, the Reapers will wipe out all races of organics at some point in time.

[RShara]

Orkboy wrote...

111987 wrote...


I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and ...



Nope, don't get your point...  Wether it's this cycle or the next, the Reapers will wipe out all races of organics at some point in time.

What I've been tryign to say for 3 pages now

[dannati]

wombat_stalker wrote...

I'm perfectly fine with the Reaper's logic not making sense. They're the villains, after all. And their software hasn't gotten patched for a few million years.

But then the question becomes, "Is the Reaper's logic not making sense a better narrative device than the Reaper's reasons being unknowable/left unsaid?"

[111987]

CavScout wrote...

111987 wrote...

RShara wrote...

...
Rachni Wars

This is why you shouldn't rely on the wikis for everything.

www.youtube.com/watch-ME2 Rachni Queen Message

www.youtube.com/watch-ME1 Rachni Queen Conversation, at the part where Rachni Queen implies indoctrination

You miss the part when asked if the Reapers and the answer is "I can't say for sure..."

Speculation....

It's pretty HEAVILY implied...I would think that everything wouldn't need to be spoonfed to the player.

[CavScout]

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Okay, I will concede that the Destroy option mitigates a lot of that.  But Shepard silently going along with the choices implies that he believes the justification.  Anyway this is off topic.

Edit:  What about my other question?

What do you mean Shepard silently goes along? He can say "F that" and destroy them. They state their reasons that does not equate to "justification".

And I am sure it's "off topic"... since you've lost.

[MrGPhantome]

RShara wrote...
What I've been tryign to say for 3 pages now

It's like talking to a brick wall made of Bioware fandom and n7 sweaters.

[111987]

Orkboy wrote...

111987 wrote...


I am going to try and explain this one more time, before giving this up as a lost cause.

Synthetics kill SPACE-FARING organics to make sure OTHER synthetics don't kill ALL organics.

These aren't 'semantics'. This is a fundamentally different premise than the one you are trying to pass off.

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and kill all space fairing races and leave the none-space faring ones...

Over the next 50,000 years those non-space fairing races become extinct or become space faring races and new races emerge from the primordial ooze...

Reapers turn up and ...



Nope, don't get your point...  Wether it's this cycle or the next, the Reapers will wipe out all races of organics at some point in time.

But not all at once. Which is the distinction.

And with that, I take my leave.

[RShara]

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

CavScout wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's a self defeating cycle that offers no benefit or hope. If the Reapers are as advanced as they claim, they shouldn't fail to see that.

There is a reason the Reapers are the bad guys....

Yep.  But they are presented in the final few moments as the "good" guys, and their reasonings justified.

They are not presented as good guys. Something being "logical" doesn't equate it to being good.

Okay, I will concede that the Destroy option mitigates a lot of that.  But Shepard silently going along with the choices implies that he believes the justification.  Anyway this is off topic.

Edit:  What about my other question?

What do you mean Shepard silently goes along? He can say "F that" and destroy them. They state their reasons that does not equate to "justification".

And I am sure it's "off topic"... since you've lost.

I belive I said that I conceded?  If you'd liek to rub it in, okay.
What I meant was Shepard's reasoning and justifications are off topic.  I think that agreeing to the Destroy option also concedes to their reasoning.  But again.  Off Topic.