280 réponses à ce sujet

[xxLDZxx]

Luc0s wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Sorry, but the control option cannot be paragon. Round about five minutes before the choice you are telling the Illusive Man that even if control was possible, you should not seek it, as first it is too much power and second we are not ready. And how do you get this dialogue? By choosing the paragon dialogue options with TIM. So defining this option as paragon contradicts what you have been telling TIM all game long.

Aside from that it is interesting that a renegade option in ME2 (keep the Collector's Base) is helping you get the control option with far less EMS, so there is a second indicator that the colour coding was reversed.

These two points are valid with or without believing in the indoctrination theory.

I like this human, he understands. 



No really, you should listen to this guy. He's absolutely right. I've been trying to say the same thing but this Myskal guy managed to say the exact same thing with fewer words.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands that the Control ending is not really Paragon, not at all.

Really so why are the geth deserving to die and how paragon is that?
A few Billion sent ion toasters killed by your ego?Damn you are are a hero even after they came to help you.I make sure never to help you, you shoot me in the back on the first occasion.

Oh and by the way what kind of other options do u you have?


-GOOD->Control=safe all life(Meet bag and toaster)
-Really Bad -> Synthesis= Cycle complete, se ya in 50K years (Shepringer:" I am the vanguard of your destruction pyjacks!")
-Neutral/Bad-> Destroy=Murder on sent ion toaster space sqigs.

Modifié par xxLDZxx, 18 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[Genome852]

Well I thought it was kind of obvious control was the 'good' ending. It also has the most heroic death.

Destroy was the renegade option... paragon shepard would never sacrifice the entire Geth species if there was an alternative.

[Myskal1981]

xxLDZxx wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Sorry, but the control option cannot be paragon. Round about five minutes before the choice you are telling the Illusive Man that even if control was possible, you should not seek it, as first it is too much power and second we are not ready. And how do you get this dialogue? By choosing the paragon dialogue options with TIM. So defining this option as paragon contradicts what you have been telling TIM all game long.

Aside from that it is interesting that a renegade option in ME2 (keep the Collector's Base) is helping you get the control option with far less EMS, so there is a second indicator that the colour coding was reversed.

These two points are valid with or without believing in the indoctrination theory.

I like this human, he understands. 



No really, you should listen to this guy. He's absolutely right. I've been trying to say the same thing but this Myskal guy managed to say the exact same thing with fewer words.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands that the Control ending is not really Paragon, not at all.

Really so why are the geth deserving to die and how paragon is that?
A few Billion sent ion toasters killed by your ego?Damn you are are a hero even after they came to help you.I make sure never to help you, you shoot me in the back on the first occasion.

Oh and by the way what kind of other options do u you have?


-GOOD->Control=safe all life(Meet bag and toaster)
-Really Bad -> Synthesis= Cycle complete, se ya in 50K years (Shepringer:" I am the vanguard of your destruction pyjacks!")
-Neutral/Bad-> Destroy=Murder on sent ion toaster space sqigs.

I don't say that the others are paragon either. I just said that Control IMO is not paragon, because it contradicts what I have been saying TIM the entire game. Not more, not less. I don't even want to try to dive into control deeper and talk about free will seeing that the Reapers apparently did not have free will in the first place. I base my judgement on what I said or did as a paragon Shepard throughout ME3 and that is: We cannot control Reapers and even if we could, we shouldn't. What happened until the final choice? The starchild told us we could, not more, not less. If that is enough to convince you, fair enough.

I agree that the others are not paragon either, in fact I believe that none are paragon or renegade. The question I asked myself was: Which choice would be more consistent with the actions my paragon Shepard took? I had a hard time answering that question and in my first attempt I jumped straight into the beam until I realized that I forced something on everybody, which was not good for me. So it was a process of elimination and in the end destroy was the choice that looked most fitting.
That destroy will mean the destruction of the Geth and EDI bothered me, but in Arrival DLC I chose to destroy the Relay and with it a colony because I did not have another choice. I take comfort in the fact that the Geth and EDI accept that sacrifice or they would not have joined the fight in the first place. Sounds cruel, it is cruel, but that is my reasoning. I don't ask you to take it as truth.

[MegumiAzusa]

Kataigida wrote...
I think if you play the final mission with your love interest + EDI in your squad, Joker comes out, followed by your LI, followed by EDI. I'm not entirely sure though. I would go find out myself, but I'd rather not have to play through the ending again...

I did it many times and instead of EDI Javik gets out for me every time, though there are others who say EDI comes out. Might be a bug in one of the version.
BUT this scene is played BEFORE the wake up scene.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 18 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[Kataigida]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Kataigida wrote...
I think if you play the final mission with your love interest + EDI in your squad, Joker comes out, followed by your LI, followed by EDI. I'm not entirely sure though. I would go find out myself, but I'd rather not have to play through the ending again...

I did it many times and instead of EDI Javik gets out for me every time, though there are others who say EDI comes out. Might be a bug in one of the version.
BUT this scene is played BEFORE the wake up scene.

You're right. I just tried it out and Garrus walked out instead of EDI. So it's hard to say what might be happening. Either way, all of the endings are pretty bad and lack way too much information.

[DashRunner92]

Walsh1980 wrote...

In the blue option, Shepard dies, becomes the mind and motivation of the Reapers, and EVERYONE LIVES. For all we know, now that Shepard IS the Reapers he can build a new body for himself and live with his LI. Maybe he'll go around fixing the Relays. Maybe he rides around the galaxy singing lullabies to babies or punching reporters and pushing Volus around. The Reapers are no longer what they were, they ARE Shepard now. That's the way I see it, maybe it's wrong and it was all a dream and indoctrinated theory people are right (but come one, dream explanations are so lame), but this is where the ending fails, we just don't know what happens.

Reapers can't build new bodies, just more giant Reapers. Plus you can't get new your LI or anyone else or you'll unintentially indoctrinate everybody into mindless slaves.

[MalevoIence]

hmm, bump, now for the new day's theorists to see why they're theory is wrong in every way possible with absolutely no proof, all you guys care about is getting your way and them making a new ending, your noble "for good of gamers" is farce. It's the natural desire to not lose in a fight. It's like all those dumb people who believed the Da Vinci Code was real, or the Bible Code is real. How are Indoctrination theorist any less insane?

[MalevoIence]

 Oh btw, before I forget, "LETS SAY", the indoctrination theory is correct and right and wrong was switched and anderson was paragon, Illusive Man was Renegade, lets say this only for a second (because I don't believe any of that bull crap)  then why was it blue flame shooting out from the Citadel or red flame? Was space indoctrinated too?  I understand how they may have switched colors on Shepard, but the rest of the Galaxy?  And don't you dare say Im just nitpicking, Your ENTIRE theory is based on choices being reversed at the end and colors being switched to "trick" Shepard, so, what's the explaination for that?  And don't say he "imagined" that's what happened, everything after the "choice" was epilogue since we see how everyone ended up, especially with blue (paragon) where he is obviously integrated into the Reapers and supposedly dead, what's the point of seeing it from his imagination in that instance?  And that is fact based on what is shown and explained in the game..... not vague assumption, or speculation,  or some theory based soley on an opinion influenced by a mass of "others" who believe in a single insane prospect, "influencing" eachother to believe "this is what happened".  The whole saying.... if your friend's walked off a cliff, would you do it too?  In this case the cliff is imaginary and much more appealing to walk over, so you all go ahead and walked off, believing the stuff is believing in scientology as a comparison...

[MalevoIence]

Rearranged some things in the opening to get to my point quicker for those with short attention spans

[Scyldemort]

Urazz wrote...

They're dead, the star kid explicitly states all synthetic life is destroyed. 

What reason do we have to think that the star-brat is telling us the truth? Are we to just take him at his word? 

Starbrat: "Hello, lady! You made it! Welcome! I'm the Catalyst. I'm feeling particularly whimsical today, so I'm going to give you the choice to either murder me, turn everyone into a hybrid of synthetic and organic life," (which is laughable in and of itself: we're already all a bunch of molecular machines - is he trying to suggest that we just aren't the right *kind* of molecular machines?) "or pour everything you are into the Catalyst, die, and take control of the Reapers just like the man you've been fighting to stop this entire time. Whatever you choose, you'll have to go against everything you believe in and everything you fought for up to this point, and render all the decisions and sacrifices you made utterly meaningless. Have fun!" 

Shepard: "..."

Starbrat: "No, really, choose. Whichever way you choose, though, imma blow up the mass relays across the entire galaxy." 

Shepard: "..."

Starbrat: "u mad, sis?"

Shepard: >_<

Modifié par Scyldemort, 19 mars 2012 - 04:46 .

[MalevoIence]

Also, if any of you state that the child disappeared a little too quickly back into those ducts, you saw he was backing up as the conversation ended, he would have been gone in the 3-4 sec Shepard turned away. That's not assumption, he was backing up . And that entire sequence had an entirely different meaning than you crazy theorists fabricated. Shepard realized there will have to be sacrifices when he saw the child's shuttle get destroyed, and the Reaper at the end probed his mind for the most influential figure it could find which was the boy he's been having nightmares about since he left Earth. Illusive Man failed fusing with the Reapers "before" the crucible attached itself, Shepard successfully fused with the Reapers "after" the crucible attached itself. He had special leverage due to whatever the superweapon does and allowed him to bend the Reaper's fate from that point on in one of three different ways

[MalevoIence]

Genome852 wrote...

Well I thought it was kind of obvious control was the 'good' ending. It also has the most heroic death.

Destroy was the renegade option... paragon shepard would never sacrifice the entire Geth species if there was an alternative.

Thank you!  One person who see's my point.  Not very Paragon to kill all synthetic life when Shepard spent a good portion of the game proving that would be genocide of a species.  Save everyone,  or Commit Genocide, seems pretty black and white to me, Indoc theorists are the ones who make it complicated though

[Xandurpein]

I think the OP is still is arguing two things at the same time. Either the Reapers are just programmed machines with no free will, and then it's not evil to kill them, because they are just machines. Or they have free will and consciousness, but then they can be held accountable for their actions and be called evil. So which is it?

[MalevoIence]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think the OP is still is arguing two things at the same time. Either the Reapers are just programmed machines with no free will, and then it's not evil to kill them, because they are just machines. Or they have free will and consciousness, but then they can be held accountable for their actions and be called evil. So which is it?

My main point was, genocide is renegade in any way you consider or rationalize it.  And my subpoint was, if you consider Reapers evil, you should consider Samara, Thane, and Legion evil as well

[Costin_Razvan]

I think people need to stop thinking in Paragon vs Renegade terms and just move on to: Choices are choices, with different consequences.

Cause ultimately this what Bioware did in Mass Effect 3 with the reputation system.

[Bill Casey]

If the Reapers are controlling The Illusive Man, and The Illusive Man can make Shepard shoot Anderson...
Then Shepard can control the Reapers, because The Illusive Man can't because he was already being controlled like Shepard was by The Illusive Man?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 03 avril 2012 - 08:22 .

[MalevoIence]

Bill Casey wrote...

If the Reapers are controlling The Illusive Man, and The Illusive Man can make Shepard shoot Anderson...
Then Shepard can control the Reapers, because The Illusive Man can't because he was already being controlled like Shepard was by The Illusive Man?

Shepard had an edge, the crucible wasn't installed when The Illusive Man tried to Control the Reapers, making me believe the Crucible is some sort of Hacking software for Reapers, that's speculation, but my point is, the "crucible" is an important device created to destroy the Reapers, so it had some significance on the ending, and my thoughts on its significance was, allowing Shepard to hack the Reaper's tech.  When he met the starchild, the crucible had been installed

Modifié par MalevoIence, 03 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[Bill Casey]

Shepard: So The Illusive Man WAS right...
Reaper King: ...yes.


I'm listening to the indoctrinated guy and the Reaper King now...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 03 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[Azmahoony]

It doesn't even matter what color you pick, 98% of the ending is the same regardless of choices throughout the entire series.


ohohohoho different colored explosion. cool.

[dragg44]

I'm not sure why OP or anyone would think they have the absolute "correct" theory as to what is the right or wrong ending. I'm not completely sold on the Indoct Theory but there have been some interesting observations that cannot be outright dismissed. And I respect that. Many of us are making assumptions and interpretations that was presented to us. Frankly, the endings provided plenty of opportunities for assumptions and speculations. Perhaps this was Bioware's intent.

I fail to see the benefit of being argumentative or dismissive of people's interpretations such as those who believe in the Indoct Theory. So what if people support it . . . I don't see the issue and certainly don't understand the negative tone towards those who do.

Until Bioware explains, changes or does nothing at all, then everyone's interpretations of the "true" ending(s) is what they view and see. It's their perspective. You will hardly encourage me to consider your arguments when the tone presented is dismissive of other people's viewpoints.

Also, my Shepard has always been paragon throughout ME and there have been quite a few paragon "choices" that made me uncomfortable or think heavily on the morality of the decision. Sometimes boundaries between paragon or renegade choices are blurry . . . just like real life.

[Necrotron]

You cannot trust anything the starchild says. He is the 'creator' of the Reapers, whom indoctrinate organics.

My Shepard is still waiting for a choice he would be willing to take, which is none of the above.

[Mobius-Silent]

I agree with the OP

The Blue/Paragon Red/Renegade representation is an _out of game_ signpost to inform the _player_ of the intent of the action, at no point in the game does the Blue/Red lie to you, you (the player) can disagree but all the colours are doing is telling you what the developers think the options are.

Control _is_ intended to be the Paragon choice, you sacrifice yourself, the Catalyst no longer controls the Reapers and they leave, Shepard gets the opportunity to try and reform the most evil being in the Galaxy.

Synthesis forces a change on everyone buy also removes the (supposed) reason for the conflict the Catalyst is destroyed and the Reapers do leave, but of their own free will. (This is the get-out-clause ending and thus requires the highest EMS)

Destroy commits genocide twice over and kills a friend of yours, but gets the job done. Renegade.

I despise the ending as-it-is but that doesn't mean I think it's any deeper that what is presented, it's badly written, unsatisfying, the wrong theme and full of plot holes, but it is just what it appears to be (IMHO).

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 03 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[magnuskn]

Ah, another ad hominem at the Retake movement, hiding behing many words. Blahblah, entitlement, blahblah, whining, blahblah. You are all the same.

[Mobius-Silent]

MalevoIence wrote...
 Oh btw, before I forget, "LETS SAY", the indoctrination theory is correct ... then why was it blue flame shooting out from the Citadel or red flame? Was space indoctrinated too?

While I agree with your OP that the endings were simply "as presented" I believe the IT people believe that everything including the beam/Normandy planerfall is happening inside Shepards mind and is just an interpretation of what is happening to him/her.

Not that I agree with that, but I believe thats how they present it.

[Mezantine]

I assume this has been brought up already but haven't people picked the destroy option and EDI came out of the ship at the end anyway?