280 réponses à ce sujet

[lolspawn]

destroy is the only good one.

[MalevoIence]

xeNNN wrote...

to be fair im going to disagree i see where you went with it and i can accept that as its "saving all life" but then again theoretically so is synthesis?

but there has also been enthuses on actually beating the reapers by destroying them or at least how i see it but to also have one of the main antagonists as the good guy at the end it just... annoying, so youve got 2 main antagonists being the good guys and we'd be the bad guys if we destroyed the reapers as they are portrayed as the "good" guys.

to be honest in my opinion controlling the reapers instead of destroying them goes against shepards character and what hes done throughout the series. destroying them would mean live continues but the monstrosities that are supposed to be the good guys will be gone forever.

in control your letting them live bassically your influence over them could get smaller and smaller and the threat could eventually still exist + joining the reapers imo goes against the arc of mass effect and again Sheppard's character. not to mention he blindly accepts the choices right in front of him which is also VERY out of character specially when hes talking to the reapers "boss".

yes exactly.... which is why synthesis is neutral, not exactly galactic peace as expected, but everyone lives

[Kataigida]

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed/believes this, but I believe that even your subconscious is telling you that trusting the god-child-ai will lead to doom. Every time that you see the child after his 'death' (even though he just seems to be a figment of your imagination) in your dreams, you can never catch up to him, and when you do, you generally end up hearing the 'reaper call' as I call it, or he burns. In the final dream when a version of you kneels with the kid and looks at you, you and the kid burn up. It's almost like your subconscious is telling you not to trust the kid, or you'll die.

Also, the 'ghosts' of all of your dead allies are in the dream, littered about like grim trees, and they always seem to be trying to distract you/pull you away from the kid, perhaps another sign you shouldn't trust the kid.

[The Night Mammoth]

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Haven't we been through this before? The Mass Relays. Once gone, it means no resupplying, no rebuilding. Like Berlin after the war but on planetary scales. Would the city have survived wihout outside aid? No.

W'eve been through this before but obviously you're not listening, relays are destroyed in every case

You're not even arguing a coherent point anymore. I know that happens no matter what you choose, I'm not saying that isn't the case. You repeatedly say that Shepard is saving people despite the fact that the Relays are destroyed. That dooms pretty much everyone to a slow or immediate death depending on whether you agree with Arrival being the rule. It happens in Destroy, and in Synthesis. No matter what you choose, everyone is doomed.

[MalevoIence]

lolspawn wrote...

destroy is the only good one.

As in terms of good visually, yes.... it had more too it and was more interesting, as in terms of Good Paragon, then no

[MalevoIence]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Haven't we been through this before? The Mass Relays. Once gone, it means no resupplying, no rebuilding. Like Berlin after the war but on planetary scales. Would the city have survived wihout outside aid? No.

W'eve been through this before but obviously you're not listening, relays are destroyed in every case

You're not even arguing a coherent point anymore. I know that happens no matter what you choose, I'm not saying that isn't the case. You repeatedly say that Shepard is saving people despite the fact that the Relays are destroyed. That dooms pretty much everyone to a slow or immediate death depending on whether you agree with Arrival being the rule. It happens in Destroy, and in Synthesis. No matter what you choose, everyone is doomed.

It's very coherent, believe concrete facts or rely on mass speculation and assumption from ppl pissed off about the ending...... hmm, let me think......

[Elios]

MalevoIence wrote...

The indoctrination theory is just us overthinking things which ARE that black and white, or in this case Red and Blue

or the Reaper VI/AI strait lied to you

[MalevoIence]

Elios wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The indoctrination theory is just us overthinking things which ARE that black and white, or in this case Red and Blue

or the Reaper VI/AI strait lied to you

Assumption and speculation, everything he had said up that point was true

[wryterra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Haven't we been through this before? The Mass Relays. Once gone, it means no resupplying, no rebuilding. Like Berlin after the war but on planetary scales. Would the city have survived wihout outside aid? No.

W'eve been through this before but obviously you're not listening, relays are destroyed in every case

You're not even arguing a coherent point anymore. I know that happens no matter what you choose, I'm not saying that isn't the case. You repeatedly say that Shepard is saving people despite the fact that the Relays are destroyed. That dooms pretty much everyone to a slow or immediate death depending on whether you agree with Arrival being the rule. It happens in Destroy, and in Synthesis. No matter what you choose, everyone is doomed.

Things can break up in different ways and we know there is FTL that works independant of the relays. Destroying the relays makes things awkward and removes the short-cuts but it's like saying Earth is doomed without air travel when really they made quite a good deal out of steam ships and cars.  

[MalevoIence]

Kataigida wrote...

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed/believes this, but I believe that even your subconscious is telling you that trusting the god-child-ai will lead to doom. Every time that you see the child after his 'death' (even though he just seems to be a figment of your imagination) in your dreams, you can never catch up to him, and when you do, you generally end up hearing the 'reaper call' as I call it, or he burns. In the final dream when a version of you kneels with the kid and looks at you, you and the kid burn up. It's almost like your subconscious is telling you not to trust the kid, or you'll die.

Also, the 'ghosts' of all of your dead allies are in the dream, littered about like grim trees, and they always seem to be trying to distract you/pull you away from the kid, perhaps another sign you shouldn't trust the kid.

Assumption, speculation... referring to a gut feeling isn't evidence

[Spectre Impersonator]

Shep getting disintegrated, his crew bailing on him and getting stranded, and the Reapers surviving? Nah.

[xAmilli0n]

xeNNN wrote...

to be fair im going to disagree i see where you went with it and i can accept that as its "saving all life" but then again theoretically so is synthesis?

but there has also been enthuses on actually beating the reapers by destroying them or at least how i see it but to also have one of the main antagonists as the good guy at the end it just... annoying, so youve got 2 main antagonists being the good guys and we'd be the bad guys if we destroyed the reapers as they are portrayed as the "good" guys.

to be honest in my opinion controlling the reapers instead of destroying them goes against shepards character and what hes done throughout the series. destroying them would mean live continues but the monstrosities that are supposed to be the good guys will be gone forever.

in control your letting them live bassically your influence over them could get smaller and smaller and the threat could eventually still exist + joining the reapers imo goes against the arc of mass effect and again Sheppard's character. not to mention he blindly accepts the choices right in front of him which is also VERY out of character specially when hes talking to the reapers "boss".

Yeah, fair points all around.  Synthesis always bothered me, just never felt like an appropriate choice...plus the Citadel getting destroyed (plus the relays depending on how you feel about Control) makes it a potential worse choice compared to Control.

As for Control going against Paragon Sheps character, I agree with you.  But I also see the appeal of TIM and Saren (to an extent) being right, but for all the wrong reasons.  Just food for thought.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 18 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[wryterra]

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Haven't we been through this before? The Mass Relays. Once gone, it means no resupplying, no rebuilding. Like Berlin after the war but on planetary scales. Would the city have survived wihout outside aid? No.

W'eve been through this before but obviously you're not listening, relays are destroyed in every case

You're not even arguing a coherent point anymore. I know that happens no matter what you choose, I'm not saying that isn't the case. You repeatedly say that Shepard is saving people despite the fact that the Relays are destroyed. That dooms pretty much everyone to a slow or immediate death depending on whether you agree with Arrival being the rule. It happens in Destroy, and in Synthesis. No matter what you choose, everyone is doomed.

It's very coherent, believe concrete facts or rely on mass speculation and assumption from ppl pissed off about the ending...... hmm, let me think......

You're not believing concrete facts. The concrete facts are Shepard was vaporised then the Reapers left. 

You have added, entirely from your own assumption and your own interpretation of the words' of the starchild, that this means that the Reapers carry with them the consciousness of Shepard who didn't really die, like we saw, but was transformed into a non-corporeal Reaper-controlling being. 

It's equally a valid interpretation that Shepard controlled the Reapers only for as long as he held the controls and up until he was vaporised. In that time he had enough control over them to change their outlook, see things his way. The way Protheans hyper-rapidly absorb knowledge and memories through touch and the Reapers left of their own volition. 

Both of these are interpretations based on assumption and neither of them are concrete facts. 

[The Night Mammoth]

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Haven't we been through this before? The Mass Relays. Once gone, it means no resupplying, no rebuilding. Like Berlin after the war but on planetary scales. Would the city have survived wihout outside aid? No.

W'eve been through this before but obviously you're not listening, relays are destroyed in every case

You're not even arguing a coherent point anymore. I know that happens no matter what you choose, I'm not saying that isn't the case. You repeatedly say that Shepard is saving people despite the fact that the Relays are destroyed. That dooms pretty much everyone to a slow or immediate death depending on whether you agree with Arrival being the rule. It happens in Destroy, and in Synthesis. No matter what you choose, everyone is doomed.

It's very coherent, believe concrete facts or rely on mass speculation and assumption from ppl pissed off about the ending...... hmm, let me think......

Now you're turning into an condesending fool. 

Speculation cannot be dismissed on the basis that it's speculation. That's all you have to argue with. 

Go on, actually try to argue against the doom of the galaxy through the destruction of the Mass Relays. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 18 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Synthesis isn't neutral, it's just another trick:

look at the eyes, IM, Control, Synthesis


Also Shep said once he won't sacrifice who they are, but Synthesis is exactly that.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 18 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[Raveyn]

MalevoIence wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Who says the Reapers win when fusing humans with synthetics? Who says they're weak minded? It's to make everyone, yes, come to a compromise, but coexist together; neutral ground.

Because you've wasted the Crucible on changing literally nothing, letting the Reapers live and dooming everyone to a slow death.

How do you know it's dooming? How do you know it means death?  More speculation and assumption?  You theorists seem full of those

Wow...we're back to the Pot and Kettle again, aren't we?

You make just as many assumptions as the people you call out, yet you don't want to admit it.

Fact:  Destroying a Relay destroys the system it's in.  (This was established in "Arrival", which is now Canon to the series.  You assume that that isn't the case to support your idea.)  It MAY be true, but based on previous facts, you can't use that as a point in this instance because there is NOTHING in the lore that backs that up.

Result:  Billions dead.  (Awesome Paragon choice's there)  This may be a super special case that changes that lore, but it's never shown or established so you have to default to what we already know.

Which brings us to the Normandy Crash.

You use the Normandy crash as an example of the Relays not destroying their system.  As stated, that is an assumption and speculation on your part.  We have nothing to show where the Normandy was, or how it ended up on whatever magical planet it did.  One second it's in full on FTL flight racing away from the Crucible beam and the next it's crashed on some unknown planet.  It could very well have crashed on a planet outside of a Relay's system.

Hell, it could be some magical time warp that transported the Normandy to Happy Happy Fun Land....or it could just be a case of incredibly bad writing in trying to tack on a "Hey, look your crew lives, everything was so WORTH IT!!!11" ending for people.

Point is, we just don't know.  So it's irrelevent to your argument of "Black and White" choices.  Because like the rest of us, you have NO clue what just happened.

The "Blue" option never states that the Reapers are gone forever.  All that's established is that Shepard can control them....though it would be hard to continue to control them, considering he's dead an all....

But yeah, they do leave.   For now.  There is never anything saying they won't restart the cycle in the future.  So in essence, you're saying the Paragon way is to pass the buck?  Ok then.  But again, we have to make assumptions and speculate because that's what BioWare was aiming at.

Using your logic so far, since I can assume that the Mass Relays didn't really destroy their home systems....why is it then so hard for me to assume that since I chose the "Red" ending, that the Child lied to me and that the Geth and EDI were in fact, not destroyed?

It's never shown that they are killed.  I just have to take it on faith that the Kid was being honest.  A kid that created the Reapers and watched over the destruction of Trillions of lives every 50,000 years.  But yeah, that's a much larger assumption than the one's you've been throwing around.

So here's the bottom line.  The endings were bad.  No, not just bad, but Bad on an epic scale.  Total failsauce.

That is about the only thing we can determine without assumption and speculation.  You can believe what you like, but you can't prove that you're right.  Other's can believe what they like, but really, they can't prove anything either.

The only thing that can be proven is that we don't known a damn thing and that the ending can be taken however the hell you want.  They leave so much "Grey" in the mix, so much unexplained, that nothing is wrong, and nothing is right.  You are only left with bad assumptions, hopes, fears and yes...speculation.

BioWare got exactly what they wanted.  And that is the true tragedy of this whole mess.

Modifié par Raveyn, 18 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[MalevoIence]

Im tired...... if anyone comes up with something that isn't an assumption, speculation, or a gut feeling that the starchild is lying.... maybe you have something, until then, Indoctrination Theorists are just crazy people who are also upset with the ending so they have to make up some mass speculation about motives and conspiracies about an indoctrinated Shepard using whatever evidence they can piece together no matter how small or how broad a solid MAYBE.... Maybe this, and Maybe that, Could be this, Could be that; by Nooo... means could it be plastered right on screen for me, that would be toooo easy, oh no... has to be difficult and full of switching up, and they really meant this and that... please.......... Hold the Line? Dear god ppl, grow up....

[The Night Mammoth]

wryterra wrote...

Things can break up in different ways and we know there is FTL that works independant of the relays. Destroying the relays makes things awkward and removes the short-cuts but it's like saying Earth is doomed without air travel when really they made quite a good deal out of steam ships and cars.  

Not quite, from my perspective. Civilization in Mass Effect is built and maintained only because the Relays provide quick transportation. Nothing else even comes close. Conventional FTL would mean it takes years to reach other sectors. It would be like forcing our modern day trade market to exist if goods could only be transported by physically carrying them from place to place without a means to transport them across water. 

[xAmilli0n]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Synthesis isn't neutral, it's just another trick:

*image removed*

look at the eyes, IM, Control, Synthesis


Also Shep said once he won't sacrifice who they are, but Synthesis is exactly that.

I can agree with that (bolded part).

As for the image.  Has this been shown with a non-default Shep (one without blue eyes)?  Just curious.  Also, is it that suprising Shep is changing, considering what he is trying to do in either of those ending (regardless of whether you think he is being tricked)?  Again just a thought.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 18 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[The Night Mammoth]

MalevoIence wrote...

Im tired...... if anyone comes up with something that isn't an assumption, speculation, or a gut feeling that the starchild is lying.... maybe you have something, until then, Indoctrination Theorists are just crazy people who are also upset with the ending so they have to make up some mass speculation about motives and conspiracies about an indoctrinated Shepard using whatever evidence they can piece together no matter how small or how broad a solid MAYBE.... Maybe this, and Maybe that, Could be this, Could be that; by Nooo... means could it be plastered right on screen for me, that would be toooo easy, oh no... has to be difficult and full of switching up, and they really meant this and that... please.......... Hold the Line? Dear god ppl, grow up....

You've been proved wrong. Deal with it, child. 

[sheppard7]

Nice troll thread you made here.

[DemonSlayer_1]

The red ending is the best ending. It means the reapers are gone for good even at the sacrafice of edi and the geth and even myself. I have no problem with that! In EDI's case as much as I love the character it comes down to "Kill one to save millions", which I have no problem doing even if my own character dies too. It is the paragon choice even at the sacrafice of edi and the geth. It preserves all races futures. You are sacraficing yourself for the greater good and everyone knows that self sacrafice is the highest action someone can take torwards the preservation of the galaxy and other peoples lives.

The green ending is absolutely horrible. YOU make a choice to change every races DNA without their consent or knowledge. You alter everybodys future without their consent. If you made this choice.... Well I will leave it right there.

The blue ending to control the reapers will fail and the cycle will repeat once sheppards control is broken and the reapers will know to stop the crucible next time. No way I would risk losing control and letting the cycle repeat again. So for me the only true option is to eliminate the threat once and for all. EVERY SINGLE TIME!

As for the mass relays being destroyed
The energy is different than the blast of an asteroid explosion hitting it like in arrival. Jessica (I forget her last name) confirmed this on her twitter feed. Those star systems were not sacraficed. So sheppard did not commit mass genocide like everyone thought. She also confirmed that joker never left the sol system or entered a relay so they can get back home on FTL.

We have seen EDI totally downed once before at the collector base, the repairs just take time.

Modifié par DemonSlayer_1, 18 mars 2012 - 03:39 .

[wryterra]

MalevoIence wrote...

Im tired...... if anyone comes up with something that isn't an assumption, speculation, or a gut feeling that the starchild is lying.... maybe you have something, until then, Indoctrination Theorists are just crazy people who are also upset with the ending so they have to make up some mass speculation about motives and conspiracies about an indoctrinated Shepard using whatever evidence they can piece together no matter how small or how broad a solid MAYBE.... Maybe this, and Maybe that, Could be this, Could be that; by Nooo... means could it be plastered right on screen for me, that would be toooo easy, oh no... has to be difficult and full of switching up, and they really meant this and that... please.......... Hold the Line? Dear god ppl, grow up....

You're not believing concrete facts. The concrete facts are Shepard was vaporised then the Reapers left. 

You have added, entirely from your own assumption and your own interpretation of the words' of the starchild, that this means that the Reapers carry with them the consciousness of Shepard who didn't really die, like we saw, but was transformed into a non-corporeal Reaper-controlling being. 

It's equally a valid interpretation that Shepard controlled the Reapers only for as long as he held the controls and up until he was vaporised. In that time he had enough control over them to change their outlook, see things his way. The way Protheans hyper-rapidly absorb knowledge and memories through touch and the Reapers left of their own volition. 

Both of these are interpretations based on assumption and neither of them are concrete facts. 

I have never asked anyone to hold any line. I have never stated an alleigance to the indoctrination theory. 

My assertion is that your argument is your interpretation based on your assumptions and no more factual than anyone else's.

Show me why the hypethetical alternative interpretation above is any less factual than your interpretation. I don't think it can be done.