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What should be canon for the sequel?


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#26
Varenus Luckmann

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Suron wrote...
yes it is...with the ritual it DOESN'T MATTER who strikes the final blow...the essence still goes into the child...even if it's an oversite that the child may not have been the closest "being."

I wouldn't call it an oversight. It is clearly the result of Morrigan's magic.

Suron wrote...
I've done this exact ending...Alistair did the ritual...my mage made the killing blow...NEITHER DIED.

if the ritual is done it doesn't 'matter who delivers the final blow...both wardens survive..and the child is now a god

I'd be hesitant to call it "a god". "An old god" would be different, since there's nothing actually pegging them as actual gods. Just supremely powerful beings. They're not even necessarily "evil", if there's such a thing as "objective evil" (Protip: There isn't).

#27
syllogi

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Varenus Luckmann wrote...

What are you talking about? How does that make any sense whatsoever? You'd have to be roleplaying as Sandal to agree to a nonsensical bargain like that. Even if she is telling the truth, which we have no objective way of knowing, you're still agreeing to sire a being (or facilitate such a siring) that is more or less universally considered evil by the society in which your character resides.

You'd have to be knowingly evil at the level of Emperor Ming or at the mental level of Sandal to agree.


Haha, I wasn't trying to bring a Morrigan debate to the thread, I'm just talking about I think the writers will use in the next game.  And according to the notes of Arl Foreshadow, there is a very good chance that the baby plot will be in the next game or expansion.

Also...the Old Gods were not inherently evil, they were tainted.  Morrigan didn't make that up, it's an accepted part of the lore.  If Old God baby isn't body-napped by Morrigan or Flemeth, it's entirely possible that it could be it's own person, good or evil (kind of like a Bhaalspawn).   I did like Morrigan, for all of her amoral, atheist ranting.  She may not be good, but she respects power, and I'd like to believe that she believes that the Old Gods can be redeemed, and this is her way of doing so.

#28
The Angry One

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There aren't any "actual" gods in Dragon Age anyway so it's all a matter or perspective.

#29
KnightofPhoenix

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No canon. Otherwise, you will first be alienating 7/8 of the population (vis a vis origins). Then you will be alienating 1/2 (vis a vis gender, which influences the Morrigan storyline). Then you would be alienating 2/3 (who is the father of Morrigan's child) and a further 1/2 (whether they accepted to do the ritual or not). And that's not counting the rest.

Bioware already said that they are not making Dragon Age a trilogy like Mass Effect (which will have an established canon). They are going to leave it open and that's how it should be.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 novembre 2009 - 04:08 .


#30
The Angry One

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No canon. Otherwise, you will first be alinating 7/8 of the population (vis a vis origins). Then you will be alianting 1/2 (vis a vis gender, which influences the Morrigan storyline). Then you would be alinating 2/3 (who is the father of Morrigan's child). And that's not counting the rest.


Not that this ever mattered to the makers of BG2, or Fallout 2 (another reason I hate Chris Avellone.. sexist pig.. *raises asbestos shield*).
Of course in more modern games the effort has been made to step on as few toes as possible, so you are correct to an extent.
However if they make Morrigan's devil-child canon they leave the origins untouched, leave gender untouched if they say it was Alistair and the last issue.. well, you have to step on toes sometimes I guess.

#31
Super_Fr33k

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As much I'd want to continue the OC in a sequel, it's a cold hard truth that full-fledged rpg sequels don't let you start out with bad-ass high level toons. So, DA2 would likely work a lot like Kotor2, and put the new PC at a distance from all the cool old characters. By the way, Bioware, I hated that kotor did that, especially since it had such a horrible, cliffhanging non-ending.



And, despite what I said, I would love to be able to continue playing with all the old characters (or the principal ones at least). So take this as fodder for an expansion if not a full-fledged sequel.





I think after four blights, and four arch-demons, major players in Ferelden should begin to question the wisdom of sitting around, waiting for darkspawn to unleash the remaining old gods and wreak more havoc across the continent. Not only is the toll in elf/dwarf/human lives immense, but defeating a blight hinges upon having Grey Wardens, which were nearly wiped out this last time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any certainty that another blight could not occur soon, perhaps before Ferelden and the Grey Wardens have fully recovered.



Here's the set-up I envision: Orzammar's king (whether Bhelen or Harrowmont), uses the recent aliance against the blight as a springboard for proposing a search for the remaining old gods. With the carnage of the blight fresh in everyone's minds, the proposal to destroy or neutralize the old gods before the darkspawn get them would seem very wise. However, profound disagreements would immediately emerge over what to do if the old gods were actually found. Orzammar's King, the Chantry, and the human king (whether Alistair or Loghain) would favor destroying them. The Dalish elves and the Circle of Magi would favor studying them for various reasons. Fearful of putting the cart before the horse, all factions agree to set this dispute aside and focus on actually finding the old gods first. The Circle of Magi and the Chantry then reveal ancient research that suggests that the archdemon's destruction was not absolute-- some remnant of its consciousness likely lingers in the Fade, and this remnant may have clues as to where the other old gods are. The game begins with the Chantry tentatively helping the Circle seek the archdemon within the Fade, and the Grey Wardens being chosen to find the old gods, since there will presumably be a lot of darkspawn in the way.



This premise can adapt to any ending. If the PC (or someone else) agreed to Morrigan's ritual, the Chantry and the Circle point the Grey Wardens toward her and her child's location. That the PC would agree to her ritual, as risky as it was, severely damages the PC's standing with the Chantry, setting in motion later conflict. If the PC or someone else died to "permanently" defeat the archdemon, then the player's game would begin in the Fade itself, with the sacrificed Grey Warden's consciousness locked in struggle with the archdemon's.



If the player's game starts in the Fade, it would make sense to be contacted and assisted by Morrigan, who, since the Archdemon's death, has learned as much as the Chantry and Circle have. She resolves to resurrect the Grey Warden, using the bond between the Warden and the archdemon to draw enough magical energy to perform the otherwise impossible task. From either beginning (tweaked depending on who performed the sacrifice or ritual), all roads run through Morrigan. Having either the old god child or unique insight into the resurrected Warden's connection to the archdemon, she would be the initial guide to the first old god. It would be logical, then, that if the player slays the old god outright, Morrigan abandons you and you have to find the rest without her assistance. From there it's just crazy epic adventure goodness.



Obviously, for this to work, a lot of the OC's plot twists have to be addressed or molded into a single narrative within the sequel/expansion (for instance, the differences between Bhelen and Harrowmont's dialogue here wouldn't be that different, both would want the same thing regarding old gods). If I was forced to choose canon, I would opt for:



Alistair and Anora rule jointly with Loghain executed, Harrowmont rules Orzammar without the Anvil (makes him more desperate for help), Circle saved, Elves saved with Zathrien dead, Arl Eamon and entire family still alive, Urn of Sacred Ashes in the Chantry's possession (which emboldens them for an anti-old god campaign).



Whether the PC is dead or not would be save game dependent, since Morrigan resurrects him/her. If PC is male and agreed to ritual, PC performed it personally; if female, Alistair did.



Oh, and most bird species in Ferelden are now extinct, all of them mysteriously crushed flat... ;)



This would make an awesome straight-out sequel, but would be nice as an expansion too.

#32
Varenus Luckmann

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TeenZombie wrote...
[...]

Also...the Old Gods were not inherently evil, they were tainted.  Morrigan didn't make that up, it's an accepted part of the lore.  If Old God baby isn't body-napped by Morrigan or Flemeth, it's entirely possible that it could be it's own person, good or evil (kind of like a Bhaalspawn).   I did like Morrigan, for all of her amoral, atheist ranting.  She may not be good, but she respects power, and I'd like to believe that she believes that the Old Gods can be redeemed, and this is her way of doing so.

As I said, the issue of wheter the Old Gods are evil or not is.. debatable. Mostly because it's hard to get a firm grasp on what constitutes evil. But as for the Old Gods not being "evil" just because they become tainted.. no. That's not a confirmed part of lore.

While it is assumed that the Chantry teachings of the corrupted Old Gods and the Darkspawn is true (although unconfirmed) there is nothing stopping the Old Gods from having been "evil" even before the taint.

And even, again, if they weren't evil, the society in which you grew up, regardless of your Origin, widely regard the Old Gods as such. You'd basicly have to be knowingly evil to accept the offer, or just sheer retarded if you believe what Morrigan is saying.

#33
The Angry One

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The old gods don't really sound evil.

They taught humans magic - not a bad thing in itself.

They were imprisoned by the Maker for doing so. Whatever the Maker really is, whether a single being a group of powerful things, this sounds like the action of a jealous ass.

The old gods are trapped while the darkspawn come for them with no say in the matter



Sounds like there's a true evil around, just not the old gods.

#34
ComTrav

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Super_Fr33k wrote...

As much I'd want to continue the OC in a sequel, it's a cold hard truth that full-fledged rpg sequels don't let you start out with bad-ass high level toons. So, DA2 would likely work a lot like Kotor2, and put the new PC at a distance from all the cool old characters. By the way, Bioware, I hated that kotor did that, especially since it had such a horrible, cliffhanging non-ending.
.


Picking at nits here, but your level is a game abstraction anyway. Why does a dwarf noble who has gone through combat training and is prepared to lead men in battle start with the same combat abilities as a city elf street urchin? Why does collecting codex entries make me better at using my sword? And with scalability, it all goes out the window. Some crossbowmen from Arl Howe's dungeon could rip that Ogre from the Tower of Ishal to pieces.
There's no reason they can't just kick you back to level 1 if they want you to continue the story with your character. (In ME2, they said they would do precisely that with Shepherd.)

#35
The Angry One

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ComTrav wrote...
 (In ME2, they said they would do precisely that with Shepherd.)


Megaman/Samus Rule ftw.

#36
syllogi

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Varenus Luckmann wrote...

As I said, the issue of wheter the Old Gods are evil or not is.. debatable. Mostly because it's hard to get a firm grasp on what constitutes evil. But as for the Old Gods not being "evil" just because they become tainted.. no. That's not a confirmed part of lore.

While it is assumed that the Chantry teachings of the corrupted Old Gods and the Darkspawn is true (although unconfirmed) there is nothing stopping the Old Gods from having been "evil" even before the taint.

And even, again, if they weren't evil, the society in which you grew up, regardless of your Origin, widely regard the Old Gods as such. You'd basicly have to be knowingly evil to accept the offer, or just sheer retarded if you believe what Morrigan is saying.


If one believes the teachings of the Chantry, the Old Gods were false gods, and it's theorized that they are just extremely powerful, ancient dragons.  There's no way for characters to know the truth, but if your character is friendly with Morrigan, chances are you don't take too much stock in the teaching of the Chantry.  I think that one telling conversation with Morrigan is when she asks the PC their opinion of shapeshifting magic.  The response she approves of  is that traditions ought to be preserved, and I think she believes this about preserving the Old Gods.

Or she's totally lying, and she's gonna do something really bad to that baby.

Either way, your character doesn't have to be retarded or evil to take the offer, they could be blinded by love for either Morrigan or Alistair, selfish, or just plain scared.  Those are not noble motivations, but they aren't necessarily evil or retarded.

Anyway, the Old God Archdemon of this Blight was the Dragon of Beauty!  A Dragon of Beauty can't possibly be THAT bad, right???

#37
Sylph_14

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TeenZombie wrote...
Anyway, the Old God Archdemon of this Blight was the Dragon of Beauty!  A Dragon of Beauty can't possibly be THAT bad, right???


Sure it can >_> It's always the pretty ones you have to watch out for <_<

#38
ComTrav

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The Angry One wrote...

ComTrav wrote...
 (In ME2, they said they would do precisely that with Shepherd.)


Megaman/Samus Rule ftw.


This was always the most galling for Megaman. "I guess I need to figure out which boss I can beat with the Megabuster again. I guess you traded all those cool weapons for the ability to slide. Not what I would've done..."

#39
Emryc

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"But this is a story to be told for another time. will surely be heard of again..."



I'm quite sure that your character will make a return one way or another. They'll probably refrain from pulling a Revan, so I'm quite sure the sequel will build (again, one way or another) on the events of DA:O1.

#40
Guest_imported_beer_*

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Too complicated.



1. If Alistair ruled with femPC- he probably did not have kids which gives rise to a completely different dynamic regarding the God-Child- because it may well be the *only* heir to Ferelden since he didn't seem the sort who would get wood for elven maids.



2. If Alistair married Anora, then there could be a kid they had which brings a similar situation like Cailan and Alistair. One legit heir, one illegit.



3. If male PC married Anora- similar situation to Alistair and Anora if he fathered the baby. If he got Alistair to do the ritual that child has more right to the throne than male PC's kid does. If he got Loghain to do it- God-child has no claim.





It all depends on how important this God-child is.

#41
Ulicus

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If the Godchild, and thus the "Dark Ritual", is included - be it canon or merely one of many possibilities - in the sequel... I really hope it defies the common expectation and *isn't evil*.



Savage, wild and dionysian... sure. Mwahahha evil? No ta.

#42
Nightfish103

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Canon for the next part... Uhm... The archdemon died. We won. That should be it, if you asked me.

I think I'd be seriously pissed if they took a specific ending and made it canon. Especially if I didn't like that ending. I much prefered how it was done in KoTOR 2, where I pretty much told the story of the first part in little bits when I was confronted by someone saying stuff like "I heard Revan was a woman", etc.

As far as I am concerned, Flemeth nom'd Morrigan and good riddance. I'm sure her last words were "Morrigan disapproves -20" or something.

On a sidenote, if they took my ending and made it canon, I'd either have to play as an undead grey warden or spend the entire game dead in my grave. That would be something to see. 100 hours of waiting and bam! credits roll. "While you were busy being dead, someone else picked up the torch and shoved it up the new archdemon's ...."

Modifié par Nightfish103, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:03 .


#43
The Angry One

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5 years with Cailan and no heir - methinks Anora's barren. Female PC with Alistair might actually be more of a chance for legitimate heirs.

#44
Herr Uhl

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It feels like a waste to have a sequel being about the same place and the same characters as the first. Ferelden is a semi-barbaric small country on the edge of Thedas (which smells like wet dog and garbage mind you) and blights happen four-five times every millennium.



There has to be other stuff happening, and I want to know what.

#45
SarEnyaDor

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The Angry One wrote...

5 years with Cailan and no heir - methinks Anora's barren. Female PC with Alistair might actually be more of a chance for legitimate heirs.



It won't be for lack of trying! Posted Image

#46
Ulicus

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Nightfish --

It's funny, because I felt that how KotOR 2 handled things undermined the first game in that it made every choice you made utterly worthless. "Hey, you know how your choices decided the fate of the galaxy? Turns out that they basically didn't, because either way everything ended up exactly the same!"

Obviously I appreciated what Obsidian were trying to do -- and there was a clear respect for the fanbase there -- but I'd have rather gone with a clear canon ending for KotOR (which, per LFL, there is anyway) and been allowed to think up my own ways to continue any different ways in which KotOR ended.

The Angry One --

Yeah, I suspect that if Anora wasn't barren, then Cailan was shooting blanks....

Modifié par Ulicus, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:11 .


#47
Skellimancer

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I denied Morrigan her "ritual child". I don't want it appearing in the sequel (for my character not for all) i hope they do not make it a main focus and instead make it a large sidequest for those daft enough to allow that beady eyed **** to have a godchild.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 29 novembre 2009 - 05:12 .


#48
The Angry One

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Ulicus wrote...

It's funny, because I felt that how KotOR 2 handled things undermined the first game in that it made every choice you made utterly worthless. "Hey, you know how your choices decided the fate of the galaxy? Turns out that they basically didn't, because either way everything ended up exactly the same!"

Obviously I appreciated what Obsidian were trying to do -- and there was a clear respect for the fanbase there -- but I'd have rather gone with a clear canon ending for KotOR (which, per LFL, there is anyway) and been allowed to think up my own ways to continue any different ways in which KotOR ended.


The "canon outcome" for KotOR that was made up by Lucasfilm (or rather by some paid by-the-hour hack writer) was no better, basically a generic version of the light side ending. Oh and Revan was a MAYUN because "Star Wars is a boy's game lol" (I am not joking, that was the writer's actual reasoning, hence why I call him a hack).

#49
The Angry One

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Ulicus wrote...

Yeah, I suspect that if Anora wasn't barren, then Cailan was shooting blanks....


Possibly, but I hate Anora. Therefore contrary to my usual stance on life, I'm blaming the woman. :police:

#50
Morif

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Aside from the matter of canon... the question is WHEN the sequel takes place. There are likely two Blights remaining, which would make the ideal plot for the next two sequels, thus forming a trilogy. And I somehow doubt they would bring two blights in the same game. We also just defeated an Archdemon, it might take hundreds of years until the next Blight takes place, thus most of the cast of origins would be dead by then, except maybe Morrigan and the god child.