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California Literary Review gives ME3 2.5/5 stars, due to the ending


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#251
AlexXIV

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

The genocide is about the geth. Think before talk=win.

We've genocided Batarians, Heretic Geth in ME2, whatever species Harbinger was, and the Collectors.

Genocide is a tool in Shepard's tool box, whether you admit to it or not.

We have not done such a thing. We defeated an enemy. Not going to explain you the difference since you probably know. You are basically trolling right here Dean.

Walking on thin ice there, philosophically.

Still, Genocide on the scale that's forced upon us by the Godchild is unprecedented

It's not about the size, it is about justification. There is no reason to believe the starchild. So at best you can say you fear they could be right and justify it by that. But then any genocide can be justified. Btw. I didn't blow up the heretics, I rewrote them. For exactly that reason. The difference between doing something because you have no choice or to do something when you have a choice. Also same reason why I didn't kill the Rachni. Heretics and Rachni both could bite your ass when you don't wipe them out. But was it necessary at this point? I don't think so.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2012 - 06:58 .


#252
goofyomnivore

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lol. ME3 is everywhere. even ESPN www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7694386/on-mass-effect-3s

He is mainly complaining about fanservice and mainstreaming the game, but towards the end I think he jabs the ending with "Giving the player choices doesn't mean you have to give the player stupid choices."

Modifié par strive, 18 mars 2012 - 06:58 .


#253
pavi132

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It's a good, reasonable review from a literary standpoint. Makes perfect sense for them to give it that kind of rating.

#254
katness

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Nicely worded article. It's everything that I feel, just in a way that I could never articulate.

#255
ArmyKnifeX

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PrinceLionheart wrote...
Agreed. Especially since at conventions like these, if you're in the minority, the fans will boo you down. 


PAX East is a little different insofar as everyone is damned kind to one another. But depending on the minority/majority I'm going to change the precise delivery of what I'm asking.

#256
ninjaman001

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AlexXIV wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

The genocide is about the geth. Think before talk=win.

We've genocided Batarians, Heretic Geth in ME2, whatever species Harbinger was, and the Collectors.

Genocide is a tool in Shepard's tool box, whether you admit to it or not.

We have not done such a thing. We defeated an enemy. Not going to explain you the difference since you probably know. You are basically trolling right here Dean.


Well arrival did force Shepard to commit genocide - but that's Marc Walter's writing, the same guy who gave us the ending. The collectors weren't a species considering they were under direct reaper control the entire time with no way of freeing them from indoctrination. Hell, even ME1 demonstrated that there's really no way to permanently reverse severe indoctrination.

As far as the heretic Geth in ME2, whether or not you killed 'em all is a player choice.

It's not genocide. We blew the thing up to stop the Reapers comming in and do worse. The term Genocide loses it's meaning if we apply it to killing people out of self defense or because we have no choice. Genocide is a criminal act. Self defense isn't.


People see mass death/killing as genocide, when in reality genocide is mass MURDER.

#257
Fulgrim88

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AlexXIV wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

The genocide is about the geth. Think before talk=win.

We've genocided Batarians, Heretic Geth in ME2, whatever species Harbinger was, and the Collectors.

Genocide is a tool in Shepard's tool box, whether you admit to it or not.

We have not done such a thing. We defeated an enemy. Not going to explain you the difference since you probably know. You are basically trolling right here Dean.

Walking on thin ice there, philosophically.

Still, Genocide on the scale that's forced upon us by the Godchild is unprecedented

Fighting an enemy and killing it is no genocide. Fighting millions of enemies neither. It's not thin ice. The difference is the necessity. What we did was necessary, thus justified. Genocide is neither.

Yeah well "necessity" is a very subjective term though. That's the whole problem right there.

Necessity is never an objective fact. It's something you believe. And that believe can be manipulated, even twisted.
Same goes for the term "enemy". I'm not saying that we should all just assume fetal position and do nothing in the face of these choices, but we should at least admit that it's questionable - no matter who we kill, or what the supposed reasons are.

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 18 mars 2012 - 07:01 .


#258
stormhit

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The very same reviewer gave Dark Souls a 4.5. While it's a great game, both its story and endings are completely nonsensical. Which the guy even says.

It's fine if he's holding different games to different standards, but it should be clear that's very much what he's doing.

#259
ninjaman001

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stormhit13 wrote...

The very same reviewer gave Dark Souls a 4.5. While it's a great game, both its story and endings are completely nonsensical. Which the guy even says.

It's fine if he's holding different games to different standards, but it should be clear that's very much what he's doing.


those games aren't relying on great narrative, they are relying primarily on the gameplay in combat. You have to take things for what they are, I say the same thing about movies. If you read a review about an action movie from an established "high-class" reviewer they will more than likely give it a crap review, but if you look at it in terms of what it is: an action movie and review it as such taking it's merits and detractors of the genre in before hand then you get an accurate review.

#260
AlexXIV

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

The genocide is about the geth. Think before talk=win.

We've genocided Batarians, Heretic Geth in ME2, whatever species Harbinger was, and the Collectors.

Genocide is a tool in Shepard's tool box, whether you admit to it or not.

We have not done such a thing. We defeated an enemy. Not going to explain you the difference since you probably know. You are basically trolling right here Dean.

Walking on thin ice there, philosophically.

Still, Genocide on the scale that's forced upon us by the Godchild is unprecedented

Fighting an enemy and killing it is no genocide. Fighting millions of enemies neither. It's not thin ice. The difference is the necessity. What we did was necessary, thus justified. Genocide is neither.

Yeah well "necessity" is a very subjective term though. That's the whole problem right there.

Necessity is never an objective fact. It's something you believe. And that believe can be manipulated, even twisted.

Well yes. But you will still have to ask uncomfortable questions later if you acted rash. That's why I would always take the risk to not kill alot of people. Tbh I would have not blown up the relay in Arrival. I said it even back then and I was told that people are glad I am not in command of anything because of my 'ruthless idealism'. But let's look at the facts after ME3. Was it really necessary? I mean we would have let the Reapers in, but we could still have warned Earth. The result would pretty much have been the same. Another example of Bioware's shabby storytelling imo.

#261
KotorEffect3

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Condemning the entire game consisting of dozens of hours based on 5 minutes. *facepalm*

#262
Boceephus

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ArmyKnifeX wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...
Agreed. Especially since at conventions like these, if you're in the minority, the fans will boo you down. 


PAX East is a little different insofar as everyone is damned kind to one another. But depending on the minority/majority I'm going to change the precise delivery of what I'm asking.


Hey ArmyKnifeX, just wanted to say I really support your efforts to make a showing at PAX and wish I could help more. I posted my thoughts on the PAX group page since this thread is devoted to the refreshingly honest review by CLR. Keep up the good work.

#263
AlexXIV

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stormhit13 wrote...

The very same reviewer gave Dark Souls a 4.5. While it's a great game, both its story and endings are completely nonsensical. Which the guy even says.

It's fine if he's holding different games to different standards, but it should be clear that's very much what he's doing.

Well the rating is probably 'emotional' founded. However, ME3's ending is the worst I know. I couldn't compare it to any other in any books, movies or games I know. However, 3.5/5 would be proper rating. Because, in opposite to what people say, the rest of ME3 isn't brilliant, awesome, or flawless either. The whole game feels rushed. Just the ending feels especially unpolished and wantonly patched together.

#264
DrDark101

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Excellent read and it accurately explains the main crux of the problem with the ending. Granted It took a literary scholar to explain the problem in an eloquent way, but anyone with a bit of common sense and two working eyes can see that the ending simply doesn't make sense and worst of all does not keep with the traditions established before it. Choice is suspended, the concept of good vs evil is negated and a narrative concept that up till that point was not a prior thought (or even hinted at as an idea) is thrust into our faces and turns everything we understand as Mass Effect on its head. Likewise Shepard, a character that throughout the series has questioned everything, stood in staunch opposition to the "evil" that has come and exuded a sense of resolve and strength that inspires all around him/her quietly melts without reason and simply accepts the "Star Child" at face value. Think about that. This being if it is to be believed is the creator of the Reapers and the meat factory the Citadel has become is its home. This thing is the anti-Christ for lack of a better term, pure evil and Shepards true enemy yet he/she simply accepts its flawed logic and does what it says like a obedient servant? As the writer pointed out a bad ending can ruin an overall experience no matter how good that experience leading up to it was. It makes things like retrospective and nostalgia moot points if the knowledge that in the final moments of a saga all your efforts are ultimately for naught. How can I look back at Mass Effect 1 and see it in the same light again, how can I justify the friendships I nurtured in Mass Effect 2 knowing what I know now? How can I see all the scenes of self sacrifice, valor, bravery, and despair depicted throughout the course of Mass Effect 3 as anything less than inconsequential diversions and in some cases blatant misdirection?

I understand that from a business perspective Mass Effect 3 had to be a game that long time fans and new fans alike could play and get a satisfactory conclusion, but let’s be honest most of the people who bought Mass Effect 3 bought it because they have been fans of the series for a long time. They have played the previous games multiple times to create many potential outcomes. They expected a payoff that rewarded their choices and play style, it simply doesn't happen. It doesn't even matter if the ending is happy or sad or something of a mystery. Heck some fans would be content with a still image of Shepard with a bunch of blue kids running around him, but the problem is far deeper then that. What Bioware did was essentially have the series commit suicide; they killed it without any good explanation. People just wanted the end to make sense, it doesn't and now we are left hanging with no universe or system in place to even get an answerer later. The ultimate kicker is Bioware then advertiser’s DLC afterward as if to say never mind that we unraveled the Mass Effect universe, never mind that we contradicted darn near everything, ignore the fact that it all comes to a unsatisfactory corn filled plop in the end, these new DLC packs will be ace! If reports are true then (as of now) all the DLC takes place pre-ending. Knowing what we know happens will such DLC even matter or bear any appreciable weight? As I said in another thread Shepard could do the most heroically awesome thing in the history of history in one these DLC packs but oh well, it doesn't matter in the end. Why would I pay for that? I personally have no desire to revisit the game for the very same reason I can't stomach looking at Mass Effect 1 and 2 again. I literally picked up the cases the other day, looked at them and shook my head. The artwork hanging on my walls that I bought of the Normandy, Tali, Legion, Miranda and Korlus remind me of what was instead of what is and that’s just a sad thing.

Modifié par DrDark101, 18 mars 2012 - 08:09 .


#265
Cyberfrog81

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suntzuxi wrote...

wow, in the meantime they gave Dragon Age 2 a 4/5. LoL

Not only that, it's the same author!

On ending of DA2 he says,

A couple of very dramatic events break the story out of these doldrums
right at the end, but it never quite recaptures the magic and then it
just sort of ends after a long but not terribly challenging final
encounter, with almost no dénouement. While a common problem in many
other game genres, lavish endings detailing how all of your choices
affected the world and its characters are a hallmark of RPGs, so of
course DA2 keeps true to form and does just the opposite. You
get a quick, lame offering that’s unfulfilling after seventy hours, and
as when Marty McFly received an eighty year old telegram in the rain,
almost entirely sequel bait.


I guess a "quick, lame offering" is OK in fantasy then.

#266
BWGungan

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

The genocide is about the geth. Think before talk=win.

We've genocided Batarians, Heretic Geth in ME2, whatever species Harbinger was, and the Collectors.

Genocide is a tool in Shepard's tool box, whether you admit to it or not.


Killing the heretic Geth could at best be described as mass murder, not genocide.  Genocide is more of a complete wiping out of a species.

Harbinger is a Reaper... the one that shoots you running towards the beam probably.  The Collectors were Prothean husks.. that doesn't count.

And are you crazy?  Nowhere in the game do we commit genocide against the Batarians.  We destroy one planet, not the entire species.  Again, mass murder at worst.

Modifié par BWGungan, 18 mars 2012 - 07:44 .


#267
BWGungan

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

(And no, writer, it wasn't nihilism. And since destroying the Reapers was always going to be genocide, you better have been complaining about it before. And the Reapers were only super-imposing if you didn't think on how they could have easily ****ed things up by acting smarter in the other games.)


If you think the current endings aren't fundamentally nihilistic, you either don't understand the logical consequences of the endings, or you don't understand nihilism.

Or I could understand both better than a lot of people who project things that don't actually apply.

Like not insisting that the nature of the relay destruction through he Crucible Effect is the same as having a meteorite slammed into a passive relay. Or ignorring that FTL still exists.

Or you could not ignore that according to the codex it takes hundreds to thousands of years to fly between clusters at FTL speeds, and that it would be totally impossible without food, or somewhere to dump the FTL drive every day.

#268
leeboi2

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I just noticed, all this article does is insult the game...I mean, look at the captions under the screenshots...

#269
DrDark101

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Condemning the entire game consisting of dozens of hours based on 5 minutes. *facepalm*


I don't condemn the entire game, infact 99% of the game I think is brillant (Still think Mass 2 was more posished though) but thats not the point. The problem is the ending sour's the awesome to the point that the awesome isn't fun anymore. I'll compare it to a cake. It looks good, it tastes good and you enjoy eating said cake, only once your done you find out that the plate the cake had been sitting on before you were seved was an unwashed dogs feeding bowl. 

Modifié par DrDark101, 18 mars 2012 - 07:50 .


#270
J717

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I tweeted the link to @masseffect and @JessicaMerizan...and they responded saying they've read it and are passing it along...so at least that's a good thing!

#271
BWGungan

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

It would take decades for the Quarians to get back to their system. Same as the Turians. Without fuel. Or food.

Besides that food can be grown on, you know, Live ships and the equivalents, fuel still exists across the galaxy: colonies not touched, and the ability to fabricate processors to handle it that you could take with you.

It might be a decades long journey that might require months or even years to prepare for, but no one says they have to leave immediately. And that, of course, ignores that the species already exist back home. We're not even talking about 'and the entire species picks up and leaves': we're talking 'and the soldiers finally arrive home.' And most species didn't even give the Alliance everything they had.


Really, here's all that's required to justify a species's military getting back home: the ability to re-establish fuel processing in the vicinity of Sol, and a basis for being able to provide food. Food not already carried in can be grown on ships, or found from nearby colony worlds. Fuel processing can be jusfied by the Crucible fleet using its engineering resources to re-tap Sol's planets. The Quarians definitely have the ability to feed Dextros, while both Earth (from food stores and gradual re-development) and the established local garden worlds can feed the regulars.


Once that inital preparation is established, it's just 'the big journey.' It becomes the responsibility to prove it can't happen to reject it as a literary device.


There are no local garden worlds in the Sol system.  Earth is the only one.  There also aren't any other garden words in the Local cluster.  The nearest argriculatural colony is Eden Prime, which would take at least a hundred years to reach using FTL.  The clusters are effectively isolated from one another, and only the Asari have long enough life spans to make it in one generation.

#272
goose2989

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 It's not just a well-written article. It's honest!

#273
Iwillbeback

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Nexis7 wrote...

>20+ hour game
>last 5-10mins are bad
>2.5/5

stay classy


Imagine it was like sex

20 minutes of action and then her parents come in and take her away leaving you only with a tissue.

#274
TheKillerAngel

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J717 wrote...

I tweeted the link to @masseffect and @JessicaMerizan...and they responded saying they've read it and are passing it along...so at least that's a good thing!


I bet the author is proud you brought his piece to their attention.

#275
BWGungan

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Deaddude56 wrote...

I know the ending was awful, but that doesn't justify THAT low of a score because of it. Knock off half a point, sure, but a 2.5?! The rest of the game was essentially a masterpiece!


That was ruined by the ending.  There is no reason to ever replay any of the 3 games with that ending.