281 réponses à ce sujet

[NightAntilli]

Hole number 1:
There is a very simple but large hole in the indoctrination theory. In most (if not all) versions of the indoctrination theory, it is said that 'destroy' is the only good option, and if you choose any of the other two options, you ultimately do what the reapers wanted you to do and thus they succeed in fully indoctrinating you. If you choose destroy, you remain independent and free. Problem here is that at the lowest possible military strength, destroy is the only option. How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

Hole number 2:
Going on from the above theory, let's say that after Harbinger blasted Shepard, everything that happens is in his head. So.. Shepard eventually breathes if he chose the right path. There is one problem here. The camera hovers there for quite a while. You see nor hear no war, no reaper sounds, no soldiers walking around, nothing. If Shepard never actually made it to the beam and the crucible was never activated, how is the earth suddenly so quiet when he wakes up? That indicates that the war is over right? How did that happen if Shepard never entered the beam to open the Citadel arms so the crucible can be used?

Modifié par NightAntilli, 18 mars 2012 - 10:24 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

[revo76]

NightAntilli wrote...
How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

More Assets - Greater Threat for Reapers. 

They want to change Shepard's decision, the guy who's controlling the biggest military force of the galaxy. 

Because of that, in low assets you can only destroy them but you're dying in the process.

In higher assets, you and your assembled fleets are real threat for Reapers adn they want to persuade you. 

*Plot filled.

[Jaron Oberyn]

No need to look it up, I can personally attest to that. That's the optimal ending for me as with that one your squad and joker dies. No Gilligans planet.

-Polite

[Myskal1981]

ConVito wrote...

If you choose destroy in that case (with the lowest EMS), it will actually end up destroying earth and pretty much everything else. Look it up.

So you can assume that by giving you this choice and showing you the consequence (total utter destruction) of that choice you would end up never trying to destroy them in the first place, hence indoctrinated. But that is of course all speculation until confirmed.

[Arppis]

NightAntilli wrote...

There is a very simple but large hole in the indoctrination theory. In most (if not all) versions of the indoctrination theory, it is said that 'destroy' is the only good option, and if you choose any of the other two options, you ultimately do what the reapers wanted you to do and thus they succeed in fully indoctrinating you. If you choose destroy, you remain independent and free. Problem here is that at the lowest possible military strength, destroy is the only option. How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

Did you know that if you pick destroy when you got high strenght, Shepard is alive AND Reapers (plus synthetics) die.

It changes quite a bit from galaxy wide destruction what you get with low strength.

[Priss Blackburne]

The Secret ending with Shepard breathing is only available if you have 4k ems and choose the destroy option. The fact that the only choices with the secret endings are the destroy options is interesting.

Besides if you go by indoctrination. They don't really care what you choose in the lowest EMS since you have no chance of beating them with the minimal forces you have amassed,

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 18 mars 2012 - 03:59 .

[MrPuschel]

[Baihu1983]

All endings are just one big hole. This one is the only one Bioware can actually make use of.

[Grimkillerzz]

LOL ^^^^

[H. Birdman]

I'm not sure I buy the theory, but what you point out is not a hole. It actually supports the theory. You are assuming that the results you see in the ending cut scene are actually what happens as a result of your choice. They clearly are not.

If your EMS is low, the AI says, "What are you doing here?" as opposed to "Wake up." That implies there really is no reason for you to be there --i.e., there really is no choice for you to make. He lets you choose destroy and doesn't try to persuade you otherwise because he knows the reapers have won the battle regardless. You get a final hallucination that you've beaten them, albeit at a great price. But that never really happened. They won.

The AI needs to trick you only if you have sufficient EMS to win the battle. That's why higher EMS opens up "control" and "synthesis." They are the last ditch saving throws for the reapers.

The only way to make sense of the "breathing in the rubble on Earth" scene is if literally nothing you perceived on the Citadel happened. That includes the choices and the destruction of the station.

[Zyrious]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

There's also the fact that in the script it was originally possible to get through the run towards the beam totally unscathed (and with scenes involving the normandy), and that nowhere in the script, notes, comments, or designer interviews is their any indication of any desire for it all being a dream sequence.

[Grimkillerzz]

also i would like to point you this way if possible. www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Grimkillerzz, 18 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Every time somebody makes one of these threads, their so called proof against the theory ends up just being presumptuous, ambiguous or negatable.

Indoc theory stands. 

[NightAntilli]

Ok so now when I bring up this argument, suddenly all the endings are all different, while everyone was always saying that they are all the same.. That's interesting..

[HairyMadDog1010]

The theory with low ems even if you pick distroy the reapers overpower your mind.
Also I think the lowest ems option changes on weather you saved or blew up the collector base Save=controll Destroy=destroy, however this is just a rumor.

Modifié par HairyMadDog1010, 18 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[Paragon Auducan]

You can only wake up if you have high EMS

[joe1852]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

[suusuuu]

Still better than ME3 ending.

[Claym0re]

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Indoc theory stands. 

Personally I am an indoctrination theory supporter.

But if you are objective the "They simply screwed it up" theory stands too.

[savionen]

Dialogue only swaps to "Wake up" if you've got enough EMS.

The only counters I've really read is:

The VI didn't detect indoctrination. - Javik states that indoctrination can't be seen by VI's until very late.
Why would Bioware release an incomplete game? - Why would they release the current terrible ending?

Modifié par savionen, 18 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[Thornquist]

Zyrious wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

There's also the fact that in the script it was originally possible to get through the run towards the beam totally unscathed (and with scenes involving the normandy), and that nowhere in the script, notes, comments, or designer interviews is their any indication of any desire for it all being a dream sequence.

Pretty much, all this.
The Indoctrination theory isnt even very good, so I really hope Bioware ignores the people who just want it in the game anyway.

[NightAntilli]

H. Birdman wrote...

I'm not sure I buy the theory, but what you point out is not a hole. It actually supports the theory. You are assuming that the results you see in the ending cut scene are actually what happens as a result of your choice. They clearly are not.

If your EMS is low, the AI says, "What are you doing here?" as opposed to "Wake up." That implies there really is no reason for you to be there --i.e., there really is no choice for you to make. He lets you choose destroy and doesn't try to persuade you otherwise because he knows the reapers have won the battle regardless. You get a final hallucination that you've beaten them, albeit at a great price. But that never really happened. They won.

The AI needs to trick you only if you have sufficient EMS to win the battle. That's why higher EMS opens up "control" and "synthesis." They are the last ditch saving throws for the reapers.

The only way to make sense of the "breathing in the rubble on Earth" scene is if literally nothing you perceived on the Citadel happened. That includes the choices and the destruction of the station.

Ok. So in short, the indoctrination theory is a way for players to pretend that the ending never happened?

Modifié par NightAntilli, 18 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[Claym0re]

NightAntilli wrote... Ok. So in short, the indoctrination theory is a way for players to pretend that the ending never happened?

Pretty much this.