281 réponses à ce sujet

[Saint Op]

It has been said that any plot hole can be filled by a horde of naked yahg...
so yeah blame it on the yahg...

[Priss Blackburne]

no one said the 3 endings are totally different. But they share 90% the same outcome for events.

Shepard sacrifices himself/Herself
Color wave around earth
Reapers taken care of
Color destroys all Mass relays spreading color around galaxy
Normandy crashes on planet
Squadmates transport somehow to the normandy

[savionen]

Honestly, without the Indoctrination theory, the ending is just weird. Although I'm pretty sure at this point indoctrination wasn't what they were going with, they just threw random **** together for speculation and for people to argue.

Like why the hell is Joker smiling when he lands on Gilligan's Island with EDI? Shepard is probably dead, they don't know where they are, most of the fleet is dead, they don't know what just happened nor do they even know if the Reapers are gone, etc.

[Priss Blackburne]

But yes the indoctrination theory is one of my hopes that the ending we got isn't real.
I cling to that belief even tho in the back of my head part of me knows the chances are slim.

[Bunzmaster]

The Indoc theory is nice, cause it gives the developers the benefit of the doubt.

The Indoc theory makes it look like a well thought out ending. As opposed to this lame, color coded, plot holed filled ending that makes every choice since ME1 completely pointless.

The Indoc theory gives us hope in an otherwise bleak conclusion.

[Xerkysz]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

Polite, I've pulled you up on this before. I will say it again, this time with a bigger wall of text, and more proof.

1.

As far as I see it, Indoc is the science side of things, and people who don't believe in it are the Christians.
You guys have beliefs and masses, with everyone saying the same thing (Sound familiar?), we have results.
Results > Beliefs.

Attached you will find Indoc proof:
http://imgur.com/a/E4R1l#0

There are 13 screenies from the killing of Kai Leng and your nightmare, to the Normandy crash.

Details:
1. Nightmare with Shadow Figures and space child that no one else but shepard sees. Wearing Collector armor.

2.
Prothean VI: "Security protocols have been overridden, I will comply."
This is in TIM's base, so why did he tell TIM about the Catalyst? when
TIM was clearly Indoctrinated? Yet if Shep is indoctrinated it won't
tell him? Make up your mind.

3.
After being hit by the beam. Faded trees from your Nightmares, which
aren't there before you get hit by the beam. No longer in Collector
Armor?

4. Anderson abord the Citadel: "Followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place..."

5. Scars on my face when I'm full Paragon?

6. Anderson at the shifting walls, which is on the other side of the door. First he's behind you now he's in front of you?

7. The control panel is in view as soon as you pop your head over the top of the ramp. Where's Anderson?

8. Human writing on the Citadel?

9 & 10. Clearly only one way into this place.

11. Citadel still in full effect? Even when The Reapers have taken control?

12. Random circle pops out of the ground?

13. Ohhey Javik, I heard you were on my squad during the bolt for the beam. Nice Teleports brah.


Also, this.

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable,
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.


All this is now proven with an app that was released with production details:
The ending is a mess because the following was cut out (as late as Nov '11):
- Reapers indoctrinating and assuming control of Shepard during this speech/battle

This was removed because even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

Just because they removed the part from the game, DOES NOT, make it impossible.
It's still there, there's a tonne of proof behind it, as seen above.


Match up what you read about the reaper indoctrination with the pictures.

Indoctrination "Theory" a hoax? So is your logic, sir.

Good day.

Inb4; Haters

Modifié par Xerkysz, 18 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[NomadDC]

revo76 wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...
How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

More Assets - Greater Threat for Reapers. 

They want to change Shepard's decision, the guy who's controlling the biggest military force of the galaxy. 

Because of that, in low assets you can only destroy them but you're dying in the process.

In higher assets, you and your assembled fleets are real threat for Reapers adn they want to persuade you. 

*Plot filled.

This ^

[NightAntilli]

revo76 wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...
How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

More Assets - Greater Threat for Reapers. 

They want to change Shepard's decision, the guy who's controlling the biggest military force of the galaxy. 

Because of that, in low assets you can only destroy them but you're dying in the process.

In higher assets, you and your assembled fleets are real threat for Reapers adn they want to persuade you. 

*Plot filled.

So.. They will allow Shepard to destroy them anyway, because he destroys himself in the process? Wut? 

[Darthbill52]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

No need to look it up, I can personally attest to that. That's the optimal ending for me as with that one your squad and joker dies. No Gilligans planet.

-Polite

*looks to see if spolilers are allowed Ok they are*  Well If you did have mordin solus I would buy the crazy professor theory and you might survuve ..he could build a space ship out of coconuts. 

[NomadDC]

Xerkysz wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

Polite, I've pulled you up on this before. I will say it again, this time with a bigger wall of text, and more proof.

1.

As far as I see it, Indoc is the science side of things, and people who don't believe in it are the Christians.
You guys have beliefs and masses, with everyone saying the same thing (Sound familiar?), we have results.
Results > Beliefs.

Attached you will find Indoc proof:
http://imgur.com/a/E4R1l#0

There are 13 screenies from the killing of Kai Leng and your nightmare, to the Normandy crash.

Details:
1. Nightmare with Shadow Figures and space child that no one else but shepard sees. Wearing Collector armor.

2.
Prothean VI: "Security protocols have been overridden, I will comply."
This is in TIM's base, so why did he tell TIM about the Catalyst? when
TIM was clearly Indoctrinated? Yet if Shep is indoctrinated it won't
tell him? Make up your mind.

3.
After being hit by the beam. Faded trees from your Nightmares, which
aren't there before you get hit by the beam. No longer in Collector
Armor?

4. Anderson abord the Citadel: "Followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place..."

5. Scars on my face when I'm full Paragon?

6. Anderson at the shifting walls, which is on the other side of the door. First he's behind you now he's in front of you?

7. The control panel is in view as soon as you pop your head over the top of the ramp. Where's Anderson?

8. Human writing on the Citadel?

9 & 10. Clearly only one way into this place.

11. Citadel still in full effect? Even when The Reapers have taken control?

12. Random circle pops out of the ground?

13. Ohhey Javik, I heard you were on my squad during the bolt for the beam. Nice Teleports brah.


Also, this.

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable,
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.


All this is now proven with an app that was released with production details:
The ending is a mess because the following was cut out (as late as Nov '11):
- Reapers indoctrinating and assuming control of Shepard during this speech/battle

This was removed because even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

Just because they removed the part from the game, DOES NOT, make it impossible.
It's still there, there's a tonne of proof behind it, as seen above.


Match up what you read about the reaper indoctrination with the pictures.

Indoctrination "Theory" a hoax? So is your logic, sir.

Good day.

Inb4; Haters

Oh, my bad, THIS ^ way better

[Paragon Auducan]

Higher EMS = Shepard united everyone = More valuable. We WANT him Indoctrinated as we now have a voice to quell EVERYONE from attacking. Can wake up in London if you destroy.
Low EMS = Let him think he killed us, no use for him he couldn't muster everyone thus useless.

[Bullseye_Sally]

I supported the indoctrination theory til the Final Hours app came out and from what Mac and Casey say in there, I doubt it was meant to be a hallucination or indoctrination. It was in fact just that bad of an ending.

[Davies993]

One side has a theory that Bioware simply screwed up, the other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence, neither know for sure yet assert that their belief is true. Both are based on faith in percieved notion. Reminds me of two religious nut jobs arguing over whos God is real.

Modifié par Davies993, 18 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[Zyrious]

Davies993 wrote...

One side has a theory that Bioware simply screwed up, the other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence, neither know for sure yet assert that their belief is true. Reminds me of two religious nut jobs arguing over whos God is real.

On one side you have the script itself, the developers, behind the scenes interviews, and developer notes all showing that having the ending as a dream sequence was *NOT* intended. Infact they were originally going to have it be possible to get through the run to the beam sequence unscathed if your EMS was high enough, and have joker show up.

Then you have a collection of theories based on nitpicking of various details throughout the game that could amount to nothing more than plot holes and artistic license if Occams Razor is applied, yet having it presented as evidence that the end is a dream sequence.

I'll side with the developers and the script itself, even though i hate the endings.

Modifié par Zyrious, 18 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[Jaze55]

Bullseye_Sally wrote...

I supported the indoctrination theory til the Final Hours app came out and from what Mac and Casey say in there, I doubt it was meant to be a hallucination or indoctrination. It was in fact just that bad of an ending.

That the only hole in the theory that needed.

THE LEAD WRITER and the MAN IN CHARGE MR. HUDSON flat out told you THOSE WERE THE ENDINGS.

Ok done. There is aabsolutely NOTHING left to say. The theory is wrong. Never intended. Done.

Should they adopt it is another question. But it was NEVER intended. 

[Capeo]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

The Secret ending with Shepard breathing is only available if you have 4k ems and choose the destroy option. The fact that the only choices with the secret endings are the destroy options is interesting.

Besides if you go by indoctrination. They don't really care what you choose in the lowest EMS since you have no chance of beating them with the minimal forces you have amassed,

Its not a secret for the love of all that's holy!  It's just another variation. One directly from the script. Obviously the other two endings can't have you live because your body is consumed. It's clear from the script that they saw destroy as the selfish ending. That's why you punished for choosing it with not enough EMS by having Earth destroyed anyway. 

[Grimkillerzz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bullseye_Sally wrote...

I supported the indoctrination theory til the Final Hours app came out and from what Mac and Casey say in there, I doubt it was meant to be a hallucination or indoctrination. It was in fact just that bad of an ending.

That the only hole in the theory that needed.

THE LEAD WRITER and the MAN IN CHARGE MR. HUDSON flat out told you THOSE WERE THE ENDINGS.

Ok done. There is aabsolutely NOTHING left to say. The theory is wrong. Never intended. Done.

Should they adopt it is another question. But it was NEVER intended. 

the proof is there.

[Jaze55]

Grimkillerzz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bullseye_Sally wrote...

I supported the indoctrination theory til the Final Hours app came out and from what Mac and Casey say in there, I doubt it was meant to be a hallucination or indoctrination. It was in fact just that bad of an ending.

That the only hole in the theory that needed.

THE LEAD WRITER and the MAN IN CHARGE MR. HUDSON flat out told you THOSE WERE THE ENDINGS.

Ok done. There is aabsolutely NOTHING left to say. The theory is wrong. Never intended. Done.

Should they adopt it is another question. But it was NEVER intended. 

the proof is there.

No you want to BELIVE the truth is there. The FACT IS it was NEVER INTENDED.  

Modifié par MassEffected555, 18 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[Davies993]

Zyrious wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

One side has a theory that Bioware simply screwed up, the other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence, neither know for sure yet assert that their belief is true. Reminds me of two religious nut jobs arguing over whos God is real.

On one side you have the script itself, the developers, behind the scenes interviews, and developer notes all showing that having the ending as a dream sequence was *NOT* intended. Infact they were originally going to have it be possible to get through the run to the beam sequence unscathed if your EMS was high enough, and have joker show up.

Then you have a collection of theories based on nitpicking of various details throughout the game that could amount to nothing more than plot holes and artistic license if Occams Razor is applied, yet having it presented as evidence that the end is a dream sequence.

I'll side with the developers and the script itself, even though i hate the endings.

You have a pre release script that was subject to change, and for all you know, could have had some details purposely hidden. You also have no idea, what so ever, if they are planning DLC (Broken Steel anyone?) Next assertion please.

Like I said, faith in percieved notion. Until a dev gives a direct statement in response to the ending, then you are all simply grasping at straws.

[Xerkysz]

Davies993 wrote...

The other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence.

I just gave you all the evidence you need, right here.
http://social.biowar...5488/2#10186556

Care to say there's no evidence?

[Davies993]

Xerkysz wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

The other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence.

I just gave you all the evidence you need, right here.
http://social.biowar...5488/2#10186556

Care to say there's no evidence?

If you bothered to read my comment, I said neither have SOLID evidence.

That is not solid evidence. That is faith in percieved notion. Thanks for playing.

[mmmu]

NightAntilli wrote...]Ok. So in short, the indoctrination theory is a way for players to pretend that the ending never happened?

I didn't think the ending was bad myself, just left with room for interpretation. I just think that the indoctrination theory makes great sense and would be great writing, if it were true. So it's not necessarily that all supporters of indoctrination theory just want to pretend the ending never happened.

[Zyrious]

Davies993 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

One side has a theory that Bioware simply screwed up, the other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence, neither know for sure yet assert that their belief is true. Reminds me of two religious nut jobs arguing over whos God is real.

On one side you have the script itself, the developers, behind the scenes interviews, and developer notes all showing that having the ending as a dream sequence was *NOT* intended. Infact they were originally going to have it be possible to get through the run to the beam sequence unscathed if your EMS was high enough, and have joker show up.

Then you have a collection of theories based on nitpicking of various details throughout the game that could amount to nothing more than plot holes and artistic license if Occams Razor is applied, yet having it presented as evidence that the end is a dream sequence.

I'll side with the developers and the script itself, even though i hate the endings.

You have a pre release script that was subject to change, and for all you know, could have had some details purposely hidden. You also have no idea, what so ever, if they are planning DLC (Broken Steel anyone?) Next assertion please.

Like I said, faith in percieved notion. Until a dev gives a direct statement in response to the ending, then you are all simply grasping at straws.

Maybe you havent been paying attention, but we HAVE had the developers give direct statements about their endings, and defending them AS IS. They even go into great detail on how Starchild A)is most definitely real and was originally more indepth but they wanted to "Leave Mystery" as they decided Vigil Exposition is lame. It is you who is now putting your fingers in your ears and going "i dont hear it lalalalalala".

[Jaze55]

Xerkysz wrote...

Davies993 wrote...

The other has a theory that Shepard was indoctrinated and that it will be continued, neither have any truly solid evidence.

I just gave you all the evidence you need, right here.
http://social.biowar...5488/2#10186556

Care to say there's no evidence?

Since they flat out said the ending we got was what they planned, no that's not evidence. That just a bunch of information twisted by delusional fans that can't bring themselves to believe Bioware ****ed up completely and wrote a bad ending. That's all that is. 

[dointime85]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bullseye_Sally wrote...

I supported the indoctrination theory til the Final Hours app came out and from what Mac and Casey say in there, I doubt it was meant to be a hallucination or indoctrination. It was in fact just that bad of an ending.

That the only hole in the theory that needed.

THE LEAD WRITER and the MAN IN CHARGE MR. HUDSON flat out told you THOSE WERE THE ENDINGS.

Ok done. There is aabsolutely NOTHING left to say. The theory is wrong. Never intended. Done.

Should they adopt it is another question. But it was NEVER intended. 

Yeah, though I believe that they probably intended that indoctrination/hallucination-topic would be subject to "lots of speculation", especially since its a convenient excuse for less work (e.g. just modelling one uniform). So I personally believe that some of the clues were intentionally planted (without actually feeling the need to make it 100% coherent) but that there was never a plan for an ending DLC.