281 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerkysz]

On another note, RIP Mordin

[FirstBlood XL]

Xerkysz wrote...

You sir, are an idiot. Especially regarding this bit: "* Assuming you get the 'best ending' (the only one with special footage
only shown with extra high EMS)... Shephard still draws breath after
FALLING OFF AN EXPLODING CITADEL, THRU EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, AND TO THE
GROUND. "

Please refrain from posting here.
Thank you.

If we're allowed to throw around insults here, I'm more then game, but I'd rather not get banned just yet... so I'll approach this civily.

What the hell are you talking about?

Modifié par FirstBlood XL, 18 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[Drachiite]

Xerkysz wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Additionally in Arrival you were in close proximity to a Reaper artifact for over 2 days.

^ This.

I know - but it took longer than that for those research goons on the dead reaper, didn't it? (The implied time frame was hazy because of it all being via those log things).

Not quite convinced by the Hi-Speed Harbinger Brainscrub though! ^^

[nyogen]

Xerkysz wrote...

On another note, RIP Mordin

NAH, that didn't happen, it was all indoctrination, remember there was a big fat Reaper there in close proximity, I am sure he influenced Sheperd's mind. / sarcasm off

One of the most beautiful unindoctrinated moments in game, thx for posting the picture

[MegumiAzusa]

Xerkysz wrote...

On another note, RIP Mordin

Most heroic death of all, giving his live to save a race that in most cases sees his own as something to eat.

[Xerkysz]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Wait a minute, he's pointed out some inconsistencies and is asking for an explanation from a counter-theory and the best you've got is that he is an idiot?
On what grounds?
Why isn't he allowed to post here?

In terms of suspending disbelief having Shepard unconciosuly in London and imagining these events is every bit as plausible as him surviving re-entry to earth, through a vacuum, in an unsealed partially destroyed set of armour, after a cataclysmic explosion and still be breathing let alone not a charred hunk of carbon?

1. * Squad running with your Shep to the beam completely disappears... Only to magically reappear aboard the Normandy. 
This is the beginning of indoctrination, Harbinger starts here, as you're unconcious, on earth.

* Shep
gets hit by Harb's beam... gets up.  Barely able to walk from his
injuries, half dead... His armor (shields as well, I would imagine) are
decimated.  Maruader Shields
jumps out of nowhere and puts a space-bullet in you.  You still manage
to take out Maurader Shields and continue your mission, even though you
were basically walking-dead BEFORE being shot. 
Dreaming.

*
Anderson says he went into the beam right behind you... when he was
nowhere to be seen behind you.  Then he happens to have teleported
closer to the control panel, very convienent.  Dreaming.

* Illusive Man magically appears behind Shephard in the 'control room'.  Dreaming.

* Starkid
AI.  LOL.  You don't introduce a 'magical higher power' in the last few
moments of a story.  That's the worst form of Dues Ex Machina (not the
lame video games).... This is the part where Harbinger is trying his hardest to stop you from destroying them. So you're dreaming.

* The
fact the Starkid AI is the Reaper King, Shephard's sworn enemy over the
course of the trilogy... and that Shephard just accepts every word it
speaks as truth, Star kid:wizard: is actually Harbinger. 
Lets use an example, shall we?  You're a WWII soldier and you're about
to wipe out the entire **** army, when Hitler himself magically appears.
 He tells you, "You know, all this
genocide and horrible mudering of innocents... it's all just a way to
save humanity.  What you really need to do is....." would you listen to him, or put a bullet in his head?

* Joker
is fleeing before Shephard makes his 'choice' and sets off whatever
color beam of energy.   Even though he'd follow you into hell, and even
though you basically had to rip him out of his seat in the opening of
ME2...  And oh yeah, he managed to save your squad in the meantime, but
nobody mentions that Shephard is nowhere to be found.  Key indication of you dreaming.

* Assuming
you get the 'best ending' (the only one with special footage only shown
with extra high EMS)... Shephard still draws breath after FALLING OFF
AN EXPLODING CITADEL, THRU EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, AND TO THE GROUND.  All
with his armor already melted/destroyed and with a [color=rgb(51, 102, 255)">Marauder Shields bullet in him as a bonus. ]You never left Earth. You were knocked unconcious.[/color]

1. Shep never left earth.
2. Indoctrination.

Fixed. <3

[Xerkysz]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Most heroic death of all, giving his live to save a race that in most cases sees his own as something to eat.

I actually made this for my Facebook Timeline cover.
Poor Modin  Still makes me sad <3

[SilentCO1]

Also take into the mind that it's a video game and they want you to work harder to gain a larger military.

[sAxMoNkI]

Xerkysz wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Wait a minute, he's pointed out some inconsistencies and is asking for an explanation from a counter-theory and the best you've got is that he is an idiot?
On what grounds?
Why isn't he allowed to post here?

In terms of suspending disbelief having Shepard unconciosuly in London and imagining these events is every bit as plausible as him surviving re-entry to earth, through a vacuum, in an unsealed partially destroyed set of armour, after a cataclysmic explosion and still be breathing let alone not a charred hunk of carbon?

1. * Squad running with your Shep to the beam completely disappears... Only to magically reappear aboard the Normandy. 
This is the beginning of indoctrination, Harbinger starts here, as you're unconcious, on earth.

* Shep
gets hit by Harb's beam... gets up.  Barely able to walk from his
injuries, half dead... His armor (shields as well, I would imagine) are
decimated.  Maruader Shields
jumps out of nowhere and puts a space-bullet in you.  You still manage
to take out Maurader Shields and continue your mission, even though you
were basically walking-dead BEFORE being shot. 
Dreaming.

*
Anderson says he went into the beam right behind you... when he was
nowhere to be seen behind you.  Then he happens to have teleported
closer to the control panel, very convienent.  Dreaming.

* Illusive Man magically appears behind Shephard in the 'control room'.  Dreaming.

* Starkid
AI.  LOL.  You don't introduce a 'magical higher power' in the last few
moments of a story.  That's the worst form of Dues Ex Machina (not the
lame video games).... This is the part where Harbinger is trying his hardest to stop you from destroying them. So you're dreaming.

* The
fact the Starkid AI is the Reaper King, Shephard's sworn enemy over the
course of the trilogy... and that Shephard just accepts every word it
speaks as truth, Star kid:wizard: is actually Harbinger. 
Lets use an example, shall we?  You're a WWII soldier and you're about
to wipe out the entire **** army, when Hitler himself magically appears.
 He tells you, "You know, all this
genocide and horrible mudering of innocents... it's all just a way to
save humanity.  What you really need to do is....." would you listen to him, or put a bullet in his head?

* Joker
is fleeing before Shephard makes his 'choice' and sets off whatever
color beam of energy.   Even though he'd follow you into hell, and even
though you basically had to rip him out of his seat in the opening of
ME2...  And oh yeah, he managed to save your squad in the meantime, but
nobody mentions that Shephard is nowhere to be found.  Key indication of you dreaming.

* Assuming
you get the 'best ending' (the only one with special footage only shown
with extra high EMS)... Shephard still draws breath after FALLING OFF
AN EXPLODING CITADEL, THRU EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, AND TO THE GROUND.  All
with his armor already melted/destroyed and with a [color=rgb(51, 102, 255)">Marauder Shields bullet in him as a bonus. ]You never left Earth. You were knocked unconcious.[/color]

1. Shep never left earth.
2. Indoctrination.

Fixed. <3

This was the original poster's point lol, he was pointing out the problems with accepting the ending as is. He even says at the start "lets look at the endings at face value" (or words to that effect). I think you are both arguing the same point
 EDIT: " Let's look at the holes in the 'what you see is what you get' ending:" <--- direct quote

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 18 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[Kujap]

H. Birdman wrote...

I'm not sure I buy the theory, but what you point out is not a hole. It actually supports the theory. You are assuming that the results you see in the ending cut scene are actually what happens as a result of your choice. They clearly are not.

If your EMS is low, the AI says, "What are you doing here?" as opposed to "Wake up." That implies there really is no reason for you to be there --i.e., there really is no choice for you to make. He lets you choose destroy and doesn't try to persuade you otherwise because he knows the reapers have won the battle regardless. You get a final hallucination that you've beaten them, albeit at a great price. But that never really happened. They won.

The AI needs to trick you only if you have sufficient EMS to win the battle. That's why higher EMS opens up "control" and "synthesis." They are the last ditch saving throws for the reapers.

The only way to make sense of the "breathing in the rubble on Earth" scene is if literally nothing you perceived on the Citadel happened. That includes the choices and the destruction of the station.

How the hell did this thread not end on the first page with this post? Even the guy that isn't yet 100% on the indoc theory rationally explains this "hole".

[Candidate 88766]

 

Thornquist wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption. 

-Polite

There's also the fact that in the script it was originally possible to get through the run towards the beam totally unscathed (and with scenes involving the normandy), and that nowhere in the script, notes, comments, or designer interviews is their any indication of any desire for it all being a dream sequence.

Pretty much, all this.
The Indoctrination theory isnt even very good, so I really hope Bioware ignores the people who just want it in the game anyway.

 
Fully agree with all of this.

Xerkysz wrote...

On another note, RIP Mordin

One of the best moments in the trilogy.

[Jaze55]

So according to this Theory the indoctrination started when Shep was hit by the beam?

[RequiemDogma]

NightAntilli wrote...

There is a very simple but large hole in the indoctrination theory. In most (if not all) versions of the indoctrination theory, it is said that 'destroy' is the only good option, and if you choose any of the other two options, you ultimately do what the reapers wanted you to do and thus they succeed in fully indoctrinating you. If you choose destroy, you remain independent and free. Problem here is that at the lowest possible military strength, destroy is the only option. How can a much greater military strength give you two additional options that are suddenly worse than the default low military strength one? That doesn't make any sense. 

And yet, Shepard only survives if you have the highest EMS and choose destroy, which would suggest, if Indoc is true, that there were reinforcements who made sure he wasn't killed while he was passed out on the ground.

[Deflagratio]

It's not about being airtight, it's about having the least holes, and honestly, Indoctrination theory has the least. That's why I believe it.

[Xerkysz]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

This was the original poster's point lol, he was pointing out the problems with accepting the ending as is. He even says at the start "lets look at the endings at face value" (or words to that effect). I think you are both arguing the same point
 EDIT: " Let's look at the holes in the 'what you see is what you get' ending:" <--- direct quote

My bad, haha, it's 4am here and I've been dealing with people who refuse to look at solid facts for the past few days.
Wish people would read, look, and listen instead of going LALALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALALALAL T.T

[sAxMoNkI]

MassEffected555 wrote...

So according to this Theory the indoctrination started when Shep was hit by the beam?

The way I see it then yes, Shep's willpower was too strong and his run in with reapers too brief beforehand. But unconcious, tired and mentally worn down within 500m of Harbinger makes it likely to me that he'd be more susceptible.

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

So according to this Theory the indoctrination started when Shep was hit by the beam?

Severe indoctrination begins here, yes.

[Capeo]

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Its called parsimony. If one ending was real and the other two were fake they would not have the same epilogue. If one ending was real and the others fake they wouldn't have the same title screen telling you you beat the Reapers. 

BioWare had to make it fair to people that chose control/synth.
How else would they indoctrinate the player base.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I've read on these forums yet. 

[sAxMoNkI]

Xerkysz wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

This was the original poster's point lol, he was pointing out the problems with accepting the ending as is. He even says at the start "lets look at the endings at face value" (or words to that effect). I think you are both arguing the same point
 EDIT: " Let's look at the holes in the 'what you see is what you get' ending:" <--- direct quote

My bad, haha, it's 4am here and I've been dealing with people who refuse to look at solid facts for the past few days.
Wish people would read, look, and listen instead of going LALALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALALALAL T.T

No worries man it happens, glad I could help .

[Jaze55]

Xerkysz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

So according to this Theory the indoctrination started when Shep was hit by the beam?

Severe indoctrination begins here, yes.

But was he already indoctrinated before the beam?

[CitizenSnips]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

One hole? There are several holes. The theory isn't even remotely true. It's the product of disgruntled fans looking for a rational reason for the state or the ending. Only it doesn't make sense. A lot of it is far fetched assumption.

-Polite

There are big problems with every ending. Seems like Bioware made the ending intentionally ambiguous so to say the indoctrination theory "isn't even remotely true" is like me saying what you believe the ending to be isn't even remotely true.

Also, it actually does make a lot of sense and isn't that far fetched, especially with the N7 Breath Scene.

[Xerkysz]

Drachiite wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Additionally in Arrival you were in close proximity to a Reaper artifact for over 2 days.

^ This.

I know - but it took longer than that for those research goons on the dead reaper, didn't it? (The implied time frame was hazy because of it all being via those log things).

Not quite convinced by the Hi-Speed Harbinger Brainscrub though! ^^

You're knocked unconcious, and you're not aware of what's going on. Hi-speed Harbinger Brainrape, AWAY! xD

[FirstBlood XL]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Wait a minute, he's pointed out some inconsistencies and is asking for an explanation from a counter-theory and the best you've got is that he is an idiot?
On what grounds?
Why isn't he allowed to post here?

In terms of suspending disbelief having Shepard unconciosuly in London and imagining these events is every bit as plausible as him surviving re-entry to earth, through a vacuum, in an unsealed partially destroyed set of armour, after a cataclysmic explosion and still be breathing let alone not a charred hunk of carbon?

1. * Squad running with your Shep to the beam completely disappears... Only to magically reappear aboard the Normandy. 
This is the beginning of indoctrination, Harbinger starts here, as you're unconcious, on earth.

* Shep
gets hit by Harb's beam... gets up.  Barely able to walk from his
injuries, half dead... His armor (shields as well, I would imagine) are
decimated.  Maruader Shields
jumps out of nowhere and puts a space-bullet in you.  You still manage
to take out Maurader Shields and continue your mission, even though you
were basically walking-dead BEFORE being shot. 
Dreaming.

*
Anderson says he went into the beam right behind you... when he was
nowhere to be seen behind you.  Then he happens to have teleported
closer to the control panel, very convienent.  Dreaming.

* Illusive Man magically appears behind Shephard in the 'control room'.  Dreaming.

* Starkid
AI.  LOL.  You don't introduce a 'magical higher power' in the last few
moments of a story.  That's the worst form of Dues Ex Machina (not the
lame video games).... This is the part where Harbinger is trying his hardest to stop you from destroying them. So you're dreaming.

* The
fact the Starkid AI is the Reaper King, Shephard's sworn enemy over the
course of the trilogy... and that Shephard just accepts every word it
speaks as truth, Star kid:wizard: is actually Harbinger. 
Lets use an example, shall we?  You're a WWII soldier and you're about
to wipe out the entire **** army, when Hitler himself magically appears.
 He tells you, "You know, all this
genocide and horrible mudering of innocents... it's all just a way to
save humanity.  What you really need to do is....." would you listen to him, or put a bullet in his head?

* Joker
is fleeing before Shephard makes his 'choice' and sets off whatever
color beam of energy.   Even though he'd follow you into hell, and even
though you basically had to rip him out of his seat in the opening of
ME2...  And oh yeah, he managed to save your squad in the meantime, but
nobody mentions that Shephard is nowhere to be found.  Key indication of you dreaming.

* Assuming
you get the 'best ending' (the only one with special footage only shown
with extra high EMS)... Shephard still draws breath after FALLING OFF
AN EXPLODING CITADEL, THRU EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, AND TO THE GROUND.  All
with his armor already melted/destroyed and with a [color=rgb(51, 102, 255)">Marauder Shields bullet in him as a bonus. ]You never left Earth. You were knocked unconcious.[/color]

1. Shep never left earth.
2. Indoctrination.

Fixed. <3

This was the original poster's point lol, he was pointing out the problems with accepting the ending as is. He even says at the start "lets look at the endings at face value" (or words to that effect). I think you are both arguing the same point
 EDIT: " Let's look at the holes in the 'what you see is what you get' ending:" <--- direct quote

Exactly.  Thank you, saxmonki. 

Xerkysz is clearly a superior intellect.  His ability to comprehend simple logic astounds.

[dreman9999]

 Please, you miss allot of things in that assumption. First of all the star child talk to you differently at the lows ems. His angry and fustrated with you...He ask why are you here. He looks down on organics, says the they don't need hope or choice. He tells you theres a away to defeat the reaper and say he won't let you... He say he know were thinking about it and let's us do it anyway because he think organic are choatic and want to destory. He's mocking you wiht that choice because your doing nothing and can do nothing to stop the reapers...Why?
Because you have low ems.
Think about it this way, would the reapers be more afride that you'll stop them with high ems or low ems? And if you have  high ems, would it be in their favor to see if they can turn you?

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Saku39]

I just can't believe how out to lunch some of you deniers are. Anderson looks RIGHT AT YOU and says "They're controlling YOU!". Not at TIM, at YOU, the player.

Does anyone who denies this theory have some kind of explanation of why the Destroy/4k EMS ending happens? Can someone explain why that's there? Because that, plus the Codex, plus the dreams, plus the foreshadowing, plus the Kid, plus the phantasmagoric, non-sensical Citadel walk through your memories, plus the everyone-dies ending, plus resurrected squad mates, all the BW tweets, just on and on, and on. You know what makes NO sense?

The idea that we saw the complete ending.