193 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
You cant use a biased sample and think it reflects the views of all.

I used this example in a previous thread...

You take 50000 random people and ask them if they're going to vote for a democrat or a republican.  49000 said they were going to vote democrat.  That must mean that a democrat is going to win the election correct?

No, incorrect, do you know why? Every single person polled was from the city of Chicago. Therefore that sample can not be taken seriously,  just like the one here on the BSN.

Enjoy

http://www.amstat.or.../vonhippel.html

[scarface2502]

Actually we're atacking the wrong people its EA who has the saying here and Bioware has to listen to what EA dictates so we should be angry at them AND HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

AJRimmsey wrote...

you are about to be called a troll

Yah I know.

I am really not trolling though, I have sympathly for their cause and they're doing a good thing raising money for charity.  But I don't like how people keep trying to use this poll as hard evidence that the ending should be changed.  It's just not right.

[Jackster94]

Yeah, that's just some paid PR damage control. This is not the first time we've seen this. And coming from IGN of all places this is a joke. IGN is by far the worst mainstream video game news outlet.
Their reviews are obviously paid off and it always shows when an EA game gets great/excellent reviews and marks and then actual gamers who play the game contrast those reviews to the point of black and white difference.


Evidence ?

[Vaktathi]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
You cant use a biased sample and think it reflects the views of all.

I used this example in a previous thread...

You take 50000 random people and ask them if they're going to vote for a democrat or a republican.  49000 said they were going to vote democrat.  That must mean that a democrat is going to win the election correct?

No, incorrect, do you know why? Every single person polled was from the city of Chicago. Therefore that sample can not be taken seriously,  just like the one here on the BSN.

This is a decent example of how such a poll can be argued against.

However at 58,000 strong and with only a 2% "liked the ending rate", it may not be perfectly reflective, true, but it would be rather difficult to argue that anything close to a "silent majority" that likes the ending exists. Even self selecting, that's not something that can be just waived away unless you also have some sort of standing for "stuffing" via dummy accounts or the like and something to show only one side participating in such an activity. 

[kbct]

AJRimmsey wrote...

using election statistics is also flawed as they are well known to be twisted to support whoever uses them.

All political polls include a margin of error - whether it be Rasmussen, CBS, Reuters, or someone else. They are accurate within the margin of error 95% of the time.

Our poll here has a margin of error as well. And it does have predictive power.

You can choose to believe it or not, but it is true.

Modifié par kbct, 18 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[AJRimmsey]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

you are about to be called a troll

Yah I know.

I am really not trolling though, I have sympathly for their cause and they're doing a good thing raising money for charity.  But I don't like how people keep trying to use this poll as hard evidence that the ending should be changed.  It's just not right.

if the group had a plan and didnt allow the worse elements to turn it into a farce i would also defend them.
after all extra dlc is always welcome.

but right now its just a bandwagon thats totally ignoring the logistics of what they are actually asking/demanding.

damn..now i will get another troll call

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

actually you used "majority" because if in reality you put any of your polls next to sales figures it looks pretty grim doesnt it.

this game will hit at least 7 million sales on all formats.[and thats being conservative]

now..whats your poll count. ?

Do you understand anything about statistics?

You have a *population*, which is the sum group of everyone that falls into the categories of what you are looking at (in this case, ME3 owners) and you have a *sample*, which is a subset of that group you use to to pull data from. 

You never poll the entire population, you'd never get responses from them all and it'd take forever. Poll's are always a *sample* of the population. For a *sample* to be seen as statistically valid, it must be at least a certain size. 

This poll here (first one to come to mind)

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/ 

currently has over 58,000 votes. In any statistical analysis, that would be considered more than sufficient for statistical viability in terms of raw numbers. There are others out there with numbers in the thousands as well that would also be statistically viable such as the G4TV poll. 

Now, one may be able to argue other aspects in regards to the polls, but trying to make the argument that based on sales numbers that the polls are irrelevant shows a lack of understanding of statistics. 

Speaking of numbers, on *what* are you basing the asssumption that the game will hit 7 million copies sold? That would mean ME3 by itself would be selling about 1.5-2x  as much as ME1 and ME2 *combined*, more than MW3, which I really don't see being the case. 

ah the olde statistics theory.

"if 100 from a 100000 population vote blue,then red must be bad"
even though the reds were never asked

in the UK stats for tv work the same way.
they poll 100 people in a population of 6 million and decide on that if a shows a hit.

statistics dont even work when selling chocolate bars.

i say 50k out of millions is a sure sign you are the miniscule minority.
but then you will just say differently even when confronted with real world figures.

Obviously all those polls that predicted our election within 10% were complete failures. Someone does not how statistics work.

Those election polls were samples of 1000 vs a population of 60 million by the way.

The board polls are skewed, but still statistically accurate.

You obviously did not read my entire post, all of the 50000 hypothetical people were from one extremely democratic location.  

The 1000 people actually polled are selected randomly and live throughout the entire United States, which makes it accurate. Imagine if all 1000 of those people were from Alaska, what do you think the result would be?

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Vaktathi wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
You cant use a biased sample and think it reflects the views of all.

I used this example in a previous thread...

You take 50000 random people and ask them if they're going to vote for a democrat or a republican.  49000 said they were going to vote democrat.  That must mean that a democrat is going to win the election correct?

No, incorrect, do you know why? Every single person polled was from the city of Chicago. Therefore that sample can not be taken seriously,  just like the one here on the BSN.

This is a decent example of how such a poll can be argued against.

However at 58,000 strong and with only a 2% "liked the ending rate", it may not be perfectly reflective, true, but it would be rather difficult to argue that anything close to a "silent majority" that likes the ending exists. Even self selecting, that's not something that can be just waived away unless you also have some sort of standing for "stuffing" via dummy accounts or the like and something to show only one side participating in such an activity. 

The thing is though, people who liked the ending are not going to go out of their way to do an internet search to try and find polls that were most likely created for the sole purpose of people to vote to change the ending.

Meanwhile, people who are angry about the endings will take to the internet, go out of their way to find such polls and vote in them.  If you like the ending or dont really mind it, what incentive would you have to go out of your way to vote in one of these polls?

The only way to accurately determine the majority is to do something along the lines of what gallup does.  That would be the only way I see any poll about the ending being accurate.

[scarface2502]

In his interview he made a little word that got me heated he said "ENTITLEMENT" like we dont have a right of saying somthing about it and then said not to buy the game if we wanted to do somthing positive about it what would the game industry look like if we did not buy they're games or maybe he'd like us to go all download somwhere ilegaly and have the game lets see how the industry would react then i'd guess they would crawl on thy're knees to buy again even listen to what we have to say. Thats my opinion to his "ENTITLEMENT"

[Cartims]

I couldn't have said it better.....

"Sloppy execution that reuses art assets reveals that it’s a hurried inclusion. The under thought and over pretentious dialogue does nothing but create bizarre, confusing plot holes. It even commits the same sin The Devil Inside did earlier this year, and has the gall to add an advertisement by the producers at the end of the credits, which is frankly insulting.

Far more importantly though, it betrays key themes and values well established by the series thus far. Past player choice impacting the shape of events is negated in favor of an arbitrary and poorly explained “pick your favorite color” moment. Science fiction justification in an otherwise material world is abandoned for magical deism, since quite literally, a god in a machine appears. Unification through altruism and sacrifice is thrown out for pure nihilism: each of the choices you’re forced to make results in Shepard committing some level of genocide or another, with the benefits removed from any relatable emotional touchstone to the intangible space of far flung statistics. It even manages to make The Reapers, one of the more imposing forces of antagonism in recent memory, come across as foolish pawns."

[bleachorange]

AJRimmsey wrote...

ah the olde statistics theory.

"if 100 from a 100000 population vote blue,then red must be bad"
even though the reds were never asked

in the UK stats for tv work the same way.
they poll 100 people in a population of 6 million and decide on that if a shows a hit.

statistics dont even work when selling chocolate bars.

i say 50k out of millions is a sure sign you are the miniscule minority.
but then you will just say differently even when confronted with real world figures.

52,000 out of 57,000 people didn't like the ending and want a better one according a poll. Also, this is by far and away the most responded poll on BSN(think about it - this poll beats out every other poll on BSN by at least 40,000 total votes), the next two largest also have statistics showing the majority prefer new endings. This means, regardless of WHERE the poll is located, the trend is Bioware has ticked off SO MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN IT EVER HAS BEFORE by at least 500%, on it's own FAN WEBSITE where people who LIKE their games come to play.

There is at least a 500% increase in the traffic on that poll versus any other poll on BSN, AND 91% of them say the ending needs improvement. If you owned a business and increased your customer base by 500% (50 becomes 250, 1k becomes 5k, etc.) do you think that is statistically irrelevant?

Note, the point I'm trying to make isn't that such a percent liked/did not. It's that 5 times as many people took the trouble to vote on this poll than any previous one, BECAUSE IT MATTERS TO THEM.

Modifié par bleachorange, 18 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[AkiKishi]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
You obviously did not read my entire post, all of the 50000 hypothetical people were from one extremely democratic location.  

The 1000 people actually polled are selected randomly and live throughout the entire United States, which makes it accurate. Imagine if all 1000 of those people were from Alaska, what do you think the result would be?

And you obviously never read the sample size vs skew data analsys.

50,000 is a huge number for a poll.

The idea that everyone else who bought ME3 but never voted like the endings is frankly as ludicrous as the endings themselves.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Bekkael]

Jackster94 wrote...

@ Cyrannt

I am not a troll. I hated the ending but it is their story, not ours

You've been indoctrinated.

A quote from Brent Knowles:

It is a game. Not a movie.

And more specifically, its a role-playing game. The players are *part* of the game. Part of the
process of building and experiencing the game, much more so than with most other forms of entertainment.


Entitlement is really a right, for the gamer, because they have participated, actively, in the game itself.

To read the rest of what he had to say, which is all extremely relevant, follow the link in my sig.

Modifié par Bekkael, 18 mars 2012 - 08:38 .

[Cartims]

Cartims wrote...

I couldn't have said it better.....

"Sloppy execution that reuses art assets reveals that it’s a hurried inclusion. The under thought and over pretentious dialogue does nothing but create bizarre, confusing plot holes. It even commits the same sin The Devil Inside did earlier this year, and has the gall to add an advertisement by the producers at the end of the credits, which is frankly insulting.

Far more importantly though, it betrays key themes and values well established by the series thus far. Past player choice impacting the shape of events is negated in favor of an arbitrary and poorly explained “pick your favorite color” moment. Science fiction justification in an otherwise material world is abandoned for magical deism, since quite literally, a god in a machine appears. Unification through altruism and sacrifice is thrown out for pure nihilism: each of the choices you’re forced to make results in Shepard committing some level of genocide or another, with the benefits removed from any relatable emotional touchstone to the intangible space of far flung statistics. It even manages to make The Reapers, one of the more imposing forces of antagonism in recent memory, come across as foolish pawns."  

by Adam Robert Thomas

[The Executioner]

None of the big review houses took EA/BioWare to task for those terrible endings, because they won't bite the hand that feeds ,it's not in there interest's to call out EA so that's why all the reviews are 9 or better. In other word there paid reviews.

[bleachorange]

AJRimmsey wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

You're making the completely ridiculous mistake of assuming that everyone outside of those polls holds pretty much the exact opposite opinion, which you have no data or any reasoning to support. 

well that makes two of us.
as your "statistics" refuse to take into account reality.

using election statistics is also flawed as they are well known to be twisted to support whoever uses them.


the main thing this "retake" group ignores is statistics vs logistics
we have yet to see this group agree on an ending to make them all happy.

until then its all just a fracas.

52,000 out of 57,000 people didn't like the ending and want a better one according a poll. Also, this is by far and away the most responded poll on BSN(think about it - this poll beats out every other poll on BSN by at least 40,000 total votes), the next two largest also have statistics showing the majority prefer new endings. This means, regardless of WHERE the poll is located, the trend is Bioware has ticked off SO MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN IT EVER HAS BEFORE by at least 500%, on it's own FAN WEBSITE where people who LIKE their games come to play.

There is at least a 500% increase in the traffic on that poll versus any other poll on BSN, AND 91% of them say the ending needs improvement. If you owned a business and increased your customer base by 500% (50 becomes 250, 1k becomes 5k, etc.) do you think that is statistically irrelevant?

Note, the point I'm trying to make isn't that such a percent liked/did not. It's that 5 times as many people took the trouble to vote on this poll than any previous one, BECAUSE IT MATTERS TO THEM.

Modifié par bleachorange, 18 mars 2012 - 08:47 .

[kbct]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Meanwhile, people who are angry about the endings will take to the internet, go out of their way to find such polls and vote in them.  If you like the ending or dont really mind it, what incentive would you have to go out of your way to vote in one of these polls?

That is not necessarily true. Plenty of people take to the internet to voice their pleasure in somthing too. Look at the reviews for the Hunger Games book. There are 5000+ reviews on Amazon and it received 4.5 out of 5 stars.

ME3 has 1000+ reviews and it received 2 out of 5 stars.

BSN should tend to like BioWare products. That is why we are here. The poll should not have only 2% like the ending as-is. There should be plenty of BSN members that liked it. There aren't.

The poll has predictive power and there is corroborating evidence everywhere.

[Vaktathi]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
You cant use a biased sample and think it reflects the views of all.

I used this example in a previous thread...

You take 50000 random people and ask them if they're going to vote for a democrat or a republican.  49000 said they were going to vote democrat.  That must mean that a democrat is going to win the election correct?

No, incorrect, do you know why? Every single person polled was from the city of Chicago. Therefore that sample can not be taken seriously,  just like the one here on the BSN.

This is a decent example of how such a poll can be argued against.

However at 58,000 strong and with only a 2% "liked the ending rate", it may not be perfectly reflective, true, but it would be rather difficult to argue that anything close to a "silent majority" that likes the ending exists. Even self selecting, that's not something that can be just waived away unless you also have some sort of standing for "stuffing" via dummy accounts or the like and something to show only one side participating in such an activity. 

The thing is though, people who liked the ending are not going to go out of their way to do an internet search to try and find polls that were most likely created for the sole purpose of people to vote to change the ending.

Meanwhile, people who are angry about the endings will take to the internet, go out of their way to find such polls and vote in them.  If you like the ending or dont really mind it, what incentive would you have to go out of your way to vote in one of these polls?

The only way to accurately determine the majority is to do something along the lines of what gallup does.  That would be the only way I see any poll about the ending being accurate.

I won't argue that the poll isn't perfectly reflective of the feelings of the userbase, but given that pretty much every internet poll out there that I've seen with votes totalling at least 4 digits shows pretty much the same trend of 85%+ being very unsatisfied with the endings and only 2-3% saying they liked the current endings, self selecting or not, there's some validity to conlcusions drawn by them, especially when they are *that* tilted, especially so consistently. 

I can accept that such polls have a level of inaccuracy for various reasons, though the consistency of pretty much every one tends to say something. For the other guy to argue the validity of the poll however based on number of votes vs sales however was absolutely ridiculous. 

Modifié par Vaktathi, 18 mars 2012 - 08:42 .

[r00tb33r]

That video missed the point. It isn't a matter of like/dislike or saving your protagonist. They raped the story, primarily by destroying the mass relays.
The mass relays should be the corner piece of this argument.

Modifié par r00tb33r, 18 mars 2012 - 08:42 .

[FixitBioware11]

Jackster94 get a life buddy. also bioware give us the ending we deserve.

[kbct]

BobSmith101 wrote...

And you obviously never read the sample size vs skew data analsys.

50,000 is a huge number for a poll.

The idea that everyone else who bought ME3 but never voted like the endings is frankly as ludicrous as the endings themselves.

I don't think they took a course or two on statistics, that's for sure. Damn, I want to play poker with them.

[chengthao]

EA is an IGN sponsor . . . i ignore IGN when they "defend" or "praise" EA products