160 réponses à ce sujet

[Sainta117]

All Dead wrote...

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

^This. Note how quick he was to point out that he "supports the retake movement" before he declares it futile and arrogant.

[Lianaar]

KaeserZen wrote...
- So, game makers are supposed to educate us on what is a good game ? Even if we're not going to enjoy an *entertainment* product, we still must consume it, because our roles as players is just play and shut up ?

Hell no. None can tell you what you enjoy and what you find good. It is your sole right to decide what you enjoy, whom you trust, what you buy. None else can do that decision for you.
You are free to express your view anywhere and you are free to ask a company to consider your views.
I didn't even say I like the ending.
My point is: I fear that forcing the company to change the ending is setting a dangerous precedent, which I fear will lead to lack of bravery to break the old recipes in game making.

KaeserZen wrote...
- How the hell do you think a product is designed ?
- If the makers are not playing during development from a player perspective : how the hell are they going to measure the entertainment provided by an *entertainment* product ? how the hell are they going to spot the glitches linked to areas some player will go ? how the hell are they going to check the quality of their work ?

I hope they create it with having a well defined target group, which they know and which they make the game for.
I presume they have marketing department who scans the market for different needs and then decides which segment to work for. Then they write ideas and they test it, refine it and eventually release it, then listen to feedback which they include in their work. Certainly this is what I want. However none demands that a writer republishes a book because it didn't end the way readers wanted it to end like. I have read many books which had little flaws here and there. I took it at face value. It would be very disappointing if those writers said: oh, you don't like it, let me rewrite it. Or how about Mona Liza, I find her unattractive and the painting totaly disappeals to me, so please, let us repaint it? Or let's stick to Picasso who is way more controversial in his reception. A whole lot of people think his work is increadibly bad. Should we then force him to paint something else? No. It is his right to paint what he wants, and we can decide wether or not we check what he painted or not. But I would be appalled if anyone made a movement to make him change his painting style or change a given peace they produced.

And let us not go into what is art or not, so maybe I should have pulled a map which has illustrations you dislike or pulp fictions... I am sure you see the point.

[Chernaya]

We can't "force" Bioware to do anything. We voice opinions. Bioware asks for more opinions and feedback, so we keep giving,

Anyone who thinks they can force anything is in a very small minority from what I can see... it seems most people around here just discuss their opinions in a rational manner and suggest things.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

KaeserZen wrote...

Two flaws in your theory :
- In the polls, around 90% of 50.000 people find the ending not good. I don't consider 10% to be many people. And don't say it's not representative, marketing polls and political surveys base their decision on "small" samples of often fewer people than here, and still make enlightened recommandations that drive to success.

Basic flaws in your methadology:

- VERY VERY few of the people who played the game answerd the poll.  Look at the numbers of people who preorder (never mind bought it after it came out) and compare that to the people who bothered to vote.  Your sample size is irrelevent.  You point about small samples absolutely invalidates your findings.
- Very few people who don't care about question even think about the question.  In this case, they don't vote.

[Zolt51]

Rule #1: Don't get your hopes up. Be pessimistic and you'll only be disappointed some of the time.

Rule #2: Damn I want some cheese.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Thornne wrote...

I don't really understand the people who say "I don't mind the ending, so you shoudn't either."

If I said "I think the ending failed to deliver the product I was promised, and therefore you should think so too" would that be a reasonable argument? I don't think so.

Why does it matter to you if people who are upset try to get what they think is fair treatment from the company they bought a product from?

No one minds the people who didn't like the ending.  There's a ton of discussion to be had there!  It's the people who are whipping themselves with nettles and making hate threads that are amusing. 

Take a look at the Indoctrination threads... there's some good discussion in Tiax's thread.  Not all good, but mostly good!

[Swisspease]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Well, I guess you're right! Pack it up everybody, I guess we ought to be totally satisfied with the ending and just forget any of this ever happened.

I wish I could forget that ending happened.

[Kloborgg711]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Cartims wrote...

At least I won't give up .....I have been fighting my whole life, it's not new to me.

I'll high five you for that.  :-)

So are you just here to be a condescending negative douche? jw
I can't understand the motivation behind people who come to these threads just to say "LOL UR GONNA LOSE xD!!" as if that helps anyone. Does it bring a sort of satisfaction to you? Honestly, I don't get it.

[Grasich]

No, we can't force Bioware or EA to do anything. What we CAN do is make it more profitable for them to fix the mess of an ending they gave us than to just leave it as is.
We can do this by: Not buying DLC (which a lot of people WILL do, simply because they don't care about a game that is doomed anyway), making it so ignoring us will hurt PR (by remaining civil and organized), while helping us helps PR (by making Bioware look like it listens to its fans).

What we have to avoid is doing things like threatening to sue, or raging at the devs. What we need to focus on is appearing civil, and organized. Make our numbers count. Additionally, if Bioware does release new endings, we absolutely have to not rush them with a flood of "lol we won, you lost!". This needs to be seen as the fans and devs working together to fix a problem with the game, NOT the fans attacking the devs.

A victory for us must be taken as a victory for both the fans and the company.

[Lianaar]

KaeserZen wrote...
He is not, he is just wording differently the idea you convey,
with an extreme example to point our the limits of your statements if we
extend the logic to its fullest.

Sorry, but no. He pulled a real life example that is very far away from the game. I really dislike people making such analogies, because people died in real life, suffered, has been tortured and has shed their blood for those real life historical moments and whatever you do, this is still just a game. Let us not belittle the effort, sacrifice and pain of people who had to go through such traumas. It is just not comparable.
Say it out loud and ask yourself which you would want to yourself: 
a) have a fun game I hate the ending of
have your life threatened, your food taken, your life ruined due to being different
If you want to make valid arguments, then stick to the level where the arguments belong to.

Valid arguments such as: the marketing of the game made you feel you can expect B and instead you feel you obtained C. This is valid and can be properly used in an argument to its rightful level.

KaeserZen wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

To explain what I mean, if you make a baker sew dresses, the end result might be a dress, but I still prefer seamstresses and tailors doing that sort of job because they know how to.

Wrong analogy, the baker does not give money to the tailor.

A proper analogy would be : You buy a pastry and the experience is flawless until the last bite, which takes like horsecrap. Next time you go buy your croissant or birthday cake for your son, you're going to have that in mind.
If you're nice, you'll say that you were surprised and disappointed by the last bite, and you suggest he reviews his recipe. A bad baker will tell you to get he hell out of his place, because you don't know what you are doing, as HE is the baker, and not you, little piece of insignificant consumer that allows the baker to pay his bills and his trip to the Seychelles with his wife.

No, I speak of something totally different. I am a buyer and I want to buy a dress from a dressmaker instead of people who like to wear dresses and thus claim right to tell the dressmaker how to make dresses.
And before you go saying I belittle people, who knows, they might be able to make good dresses. I just worry that letting people not knowing anything about fabrics and sewing make decisions in dress making process will end up in dresses that I won't like at all.  Common sense in me makes me want professional dress makers to make my dresses. It is easy to say: this dress is not pretty. But to say: change this cut here so the dress looks good requies skills we don't possess.

[Thornne]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

- VERY VERY few of the people who played the game answerd the poll.  Look at the numbers of people who preorder (never mind bought it after it came out) and compare that to the people who bothered to vote.  Your sample size is irrelevent.  You point about small samples absolutely invalidates your findings.

All polling is done with a small sample size. National opinion polls are done with a couple thousand samples.  We have 50,000.  Is there some bias? Sure.  Does that bias negate a 90% negative response? No.

[Kloborgg711]

Thornne wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

- VERY VERY few of the people who played the game answerd the poll.  Look at the numbers of people who preorder (never mind bought it after it came out) and compare that to the people who bothered to vote.  Your sample size is irrelevent.  You point about small samples absolutely invalidates your findings.

All polling is done with a small sample size. National opinion polls are done with a couple thousand samples.  We have 50,000.  Is there some bias? Sure.  Does that bias negate a 90% negative response? No.

91% is actually only those who want an entirely new ending. Only 2% in most polls show people who actually LIKED it. And you're right, even though there IS a bias, it's not nearly enough to dismiss the almost universal reaction we're seeing.

[detroitmechworks]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Basic flaws in your methadology:

- VERY VERY few of the people who played the game answerd the poll.  Look at the numbers of people who preorder (never mind bought it after it came out) and compare that to the people who bothered to vote.  Your sample size is irrelevent.  You point about small samples absolutely invalidates your findings.
- Very few people who don't care about question even think about the question.  In this case, they don't vote.

Very few people answer ANY poll.  That does not invalidate every poll because we didn't track down the one hermit who bought the game and loved the ending but doesn't have the internet.  (We'll assume he hacked the game)

If Fox News, Reuters, CNN, and The New York Times are fine with a sample size under 1%, then they're just hacks? 

Preorders were based off an  unknown quality.  As were those of us who bought it and assumed it wasn't going to be as bad as it was.

And the people who don't care about the game are not EA's target audience for DLC.  Ignoring their fans is sure to create only bad word of mouth.  Which is to this day, STILL the best advertising.

[Sidra2099]

Sainta117 wrote...

All Dead wrote...

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

^This. Note how quick he was to point out that he "supports the retake movement" before he declares it futile and arrogant.

^ This.
Although it seems to also have attracted more conventional trolls.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

So are you just here to be a condescending negative douche? jw
I can't understand the motivation behind people who come to these threads just to say "LOL UR GONNA LOSE xD!!" as if that helps anyone. Does it bring a sort of satisfaction to you? Honestly, I don't get it.

Not just, though those comments and replies ended up being a side conversation with someone on my friend's list. 

I'm mostly in this thread to see if there's anything that will change my mind.  So far it hasn't... but maybe someone will make a point that changes my mind.

[Cheviot]

Thornne wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

- VERY VERY few of the people who played the game answerd the poll.  Look at the numbers of people who preorder (never mind bought it after it came out) and compare that to the people who bothered to vote.  Your sample size is irrelevent.  You point about small samples absolutely invalidates your findings.

All polling is done with a small sample size. National opinion polls are done with a couple thousand samples.  We have 50,000.  Is there some bias? Sure.  Does that bias negate a 90% negative response? No.

It does negate it in a way, since there was no method used to keep the sample random or avoid self-selection bias.  While it does indicate a trend towards negativity, we're no further forward in determining even an approximate percentage to the entire audience.  The best we can say is "90% of respondants to the poll showed a negative response".

[plaguecaller]

JohnShepard12 wrote...

Pretty sure we're banking on Bioware caring enough to change the endings, not hurting them by taking their money. At least that's my angle and I believe Bioware (more than any other developer) does care about it's loyal fans.

Who are you talking about in Bioware that cares can you name them? Bioware does not speak to masses which this grass roots group is at the moment. Two weeks and counting- still nobody really taking the steps to actually start talking to bioware reps who could be representing your group- wtf.  

Yet you are on the boards complianing. get up off your butts and organise properly.
 
What reps do you have to present your position who is speaking for you to bioware?

Who have you elected to represent you to bioware and how did you do so? Was it by consensus, polling, mail in campaing? What was used to get your core of leadership? 

Tell us how you are going to legitimize these identified leaders in your gtoup?

Where is your desiganted spokes person that is savvy enough to strum the news cycle which works on a 90 minute rotation? Where is your media campaign? I don't see it.

Whats your message?- its dijointed.

Where is you leadership what are their names and who have they been talking to?

Go read some books on grass roots organizing such as Piven and Clowards stuff and come up with a plan. This monb level stuff is goinng to get old fast

Bioware is the power at the momement and you are a marginilised group until you can talk with that power through its representatives. Go figure out how you are going to do that. Other wise in time you will drift to the fringes of the community =unheard anymore.

I think some are talking this a tad to seriuosly. So I give you the galaxy song - cheer up.

Modifié par plaguecaller, 18 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Thornne wrote...

All polling is done with a small sample size. National opinion polls are done with a couple thousand samples.  We have 50,000.  Is there some bias? Sure.  Does that bias negate a 90% negative response? No.

That's fair, but those polls are taken in different venues.  As for the 50,000...  That many have voted on the polls?  I don't think so.

[MrBurntToast]

'Take ourselves too seriously?' If we don't, no one will, and the whole thing is doomed from the start.

[SandTrout]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

That's fair, but those polls are taken in different venues.  As for the 50,000...  That many have voted on the polls?  I don't think so.

Yes, 50k have voted on some of the polls. Your ignorance is showing.

[Thornne]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

No one minds the people who didn't like the ending.  There's a ton of discussion to be had there!  It's the people who are whipping themselves with nettles and making hate threads that are amusing. 

Take a look at the Indoctrination threads... there's some good discussion in Tiax's thread.  Not all good, but mostly good!

I finished the game nearly a week ago.  I've discussed the ending. l remain unsatisfied with the product I paid for.  If you are satisfied, that's great.  But please stop telling me I should be too.

[mrderp27]

All Dead wrote...

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

[detroitmechworks]

plaguecaller wrote...

Who are you talking about in Bioware that cares can you name them? Bioware does not speak to masses which this grass roots group is at the moment. Two weeks and counting- still nobody taking thew steps to actually start talking to bioware reps- wtf.
 
What reps do you have to present your position who is speaking for you to bioware?

Who have you elected to represent you to bioware and how did you do so? Was it by consensus, polling, mail in campaing? What was used to get your core of leadership? 

Tell us how you are going to legitimize these identified leaders in your gtoup?

Where is your desiganted spokes person that is savvy enough to strum the news cycle which works on a 90 minute rotation? Where is your media campaign? I don't see it.

Whats your message?- its dijointed.

Where is you leadership what are their names and who have they been talking to?

Go read some books on grass roots organizing such as Piven and Clowards stuff and come up with a plan. This monb level stuff is goinng to get old fast

Bioware is the power at the momement and you are a marginilised group until you can talk with that power through its representatives. Go figure out how you are going to do that. Other wise in time you will drift to the fringes of the community =unheard anymore.

I think some are talking this a tad to seriuosly. So I give you the galaxy song - cheer up.

Not sure if serious...

You're actually saying that the company needs to be treated like a political entity in order to get the ending we want?

Ya know... at that point, we will just give up.  Bioware won't get our money and we'll spend it elsewhere.

So uh... no.

[AwesomeDudex64]

Yeah we should just all give up and pretend this half assed ending never happened. Let's just be satisfied with the fact that the product we bought isn't what we were promised.

[Kloborgg711]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

So are you just here to be a condescending negative douche? jw
I can't understand the motivation behind people who come to these threads just to say "LOL UR GONNA LOSE xD!!" as if that helps anyone. Does it bring a sort of satisfaction to you? Honestly, I don't get it.

Not just, though those comments and replies ended up being a side conversation with someone on my friend's list. 

I'm mostly in this thread to see if there's anything that will change my mind.  So far it hasn't... but maybe someone will make a point that changes my mind.

Oh, so you're trying to broaden your perspective by telling people their goals are futile and mocking them. Makes sense.