160 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark_Caduceus]

Regardless, exercising your ability to effect recourse for an objectively mis-advertised product isn't taking yourself too seriously, it's being an intelligent consumer.

[Kastrenzo]

Mouthing off still hurts Reputation, and last I heard EA isn't doing too well these days.

[Shaun72]

See more on Know Your Meme

[Kloborgg711]

plaguecaller wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

plaguecaller wrote...

You've got to be kidding me.

Name one person in bioware that cares? Do you know who could be your potential internal allies in Bioware? Have you identified them? Have you actually even got any names?

Name one person in the change movement or a couple of them that are talking to specific bioware reps .

You don't need internal allies to boycott a company's product, Mr Bourne.

You want change you do need to be talking to some one and this group is not talking to anyone at bioware, has no consitent mesaging or a communication plan.

That's why you are being treated as a joke, most media does not report your story well, people turn off you. 

Or you could move your eyes up a tiny bit and see the huge thread where BIoware asks for input on what to change/add for new content and thousands are listing incredibly well-thought-out ideas. But then being such a bad troll would be so difficult, wouldn't it?

[Soverign 666]

In Exile wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...
In the end you guys might cause a slight drop in sales but you arent going to do enough damage to "force" bioware/EA to do anything. I've seen some military analogys about how your "Overwhelming bioware" but I'd like to make my own analogy. Bioware has already won your just the gurillea fighters harrassing them. You might cause enough of an annoyance to make them appease you but you won't drive them out. The truth of the matter is we fans are driven by emotion instead of logic we will fight even when we know we can't win.

I look at DA2 and a bunch of angry, "entitled" Bioware fans and see a 50% drop in sales from DA:O.

Mass Effect 3 had great word-of-mouth. But now you've got a dedicated group  going around trashing this franchise, like when DA2 was announced.

Whether or not ME3 is a success, Bioware is going to need ME4 to be a success too. They could always write off their audience and make a pure FPS, but that's probably going to kill another part of their DA/TOR fanbase.

Big difference DA2 got bad-mediocre reviews from the big sites. ME3 got great reviews also mass effect is a much more popular series that had its reputation built up from the first two games setting it up for sucess.

[Soverign 666]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

I pointed out some problems I feel the retake movement is going to have. If it appeared any other way Im sorry. But the fact that a good portion of the responses have been attacks against me instead of what I said seems to validate what I said.

Your "suggestions" were:

You have no power.
You guys look immature and whiny.
This isn't going to work.


Great. Why are you even trying to defend yourself any longer? Didn't you JUST admit to being a troll?

No I didn't please show me where I did that. maybe you should go back to school to learn how to read

Good one, I laughed really hard at that joke. Any ways, I never thought I would have to show a person what they themselves said, but here we go:

" Most of you have already bought the game. Bioware/EA already has your money"
"Most people wont care"
"You guys have a bad reputation"
"BSN has been infamous for being nitpicky and unpleasable. "
"you arent going to do enough damage to "force" bioware/EA to do anything."
"even when we know we can't win."

Is that jogging your memory a little?

Ok where did i admit to being a troll? You still havent proved to me you understand the english language.

Sorry, I'm not going to spoonfeed everything you say back to you for your convenience. This "LOL U DONT SPEAK ENGLISH" crap is ridiculous, grow up.

What? I asked you to point out where I admited to being a troll you still havent done that?! Whatever I should have realized that expecting reasonable disscussion was too much to ask for.

[Kloborgg711]

Soverign 666 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...
In the end you guys might cause a slight drop in sales but you arent going to do enough damage to "force" bioware/EA to do anything. I've seen some military analogys about how your "Overwhelming bioware" but I'd like to make my own analogy. Bioware has already won your just the gurillea fighters harrassing them. You might cause enough of an annoyance to make them appease you but you won't drive them out. The truth of the matter is we fans are driven by emotion instead of logic we will fight even when we know we can't win.

I look at DA2 and a bunch of angry, "entitled" Bioware fans and see a 50% drop in sales from DA:O.

Mass Effect 3 had great word-of-mouth. But now you've got a dedicated group  going around trashing this franchise, like when DA2 was announced.

Whether or not ME3 is a success, Bioware is going to need ME4 to be a success too. They could always write off their audience and make a pure FPS, but that's probably going to kill another part of their DA/TOR fanbase.

Big difference DA2 got bad-mediocre reviews from the big sites. ME3 got great reviews also mass effect is a much more popular series that had its reputation built up from the first two games setting it up for sucess.

Um, according to Metacritic DA2 got good-great reviews from the vast majority of "big sites". Just like in this scenario, the bad press and backlash was a result of fan complaints.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

You're right, the phrase "across the country" differs from the phrase "on the social.bioware.com" both in meaning and in the arrangement of letters. Congratulations, now what's the argument you're going to present based on that stunning analysis? Oh, three smiley faces? Interesting, interesting. I'll get back to you on that.

Oh, and "the poll is not entirely accurate and suffers from some bias" does not equal "LOL THROW IT OUT IT MEANS NOTHING". A slight bias does not account for a 2% satisfaction rate. This dealing in absolutes is hideously fallacious.

You already agreed it's not a good sample.  Bad data = bad conclusions.  "An inacurate and biased poll."  Your own words.  That means inacurate and biased conclusions.

The smiley faces are there because this is all in good fun, relax.  :)


This has been nice, but we're going around in circles.  It seems to me that the people who want the ending changed have more emotion than they have actual facts.  I haven't seen anything that convinces me otherwise.  Maybe next thread.

I still think we're going to see some kind of playable epilogue.  I hope we get something like that anyways, it would kick ass!

[Kloborgg711]

Soverign 666 wrote...

Again, I don't have the responsibility to "prove" that you actually said everything you said. You asked me to "prove" three different points, and I did by directly quoting you. You brushed that aside and moved on to a separate topic. I'm not going to give you the satisafction of watching me waste my time again just for you to ignore whatever I bring up.

[Soverign 666]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...
In the end you guys might cause a slight drop in sales but you arent going to do enough damage to "force" bioware/EA to do anything. I've seen some military analogys about how your "Overwhelming bioware" but I'd like to make my own analogy. Bioware has already won your just the gurillea fighters harrassing them. You might cause enough of an annoyance to make them appease you but you won't drive them out. The truth of the matter is we fans are driven by emotion instead of logic we will fight even when we know we can't win.

I look at DA2 and a bunch of angry, "entitled" Bioware fans and see a 50% drop in sales from DA:O.

Mass Effect 3 had great word-of-mouth. But now you've got a dedicated group  going around trashing this franchise, like when DA2 was announced.

Whether or not ME3 is a success, Bioware is going to need ME4 to be a success too. They could always write off their audience and make a pure FPS, but that's probably going to kill another part of their DA/TOR fanbase.

Big difference DA2 got bad-mediocre reviews from the big sites. ME3 got great reviews also mass effect is a much more popular series that had its reputation built up from the first two games setting it up for sucess.

Um, according to Metacritic DA2 got good-great reviews from the vast majority of "big sites". Just like in this scenario, the bad press and backlash was a result of fan complaints.

82 isnt that great. Any big title almost always gets above 8 IGN gave it a high 7 which is very bad for a big game. I don't think ive ever seen a game get below 7 on reviews.

[Soverign 666]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Soverign 666 wrote...

Again, I don't have the responsibility to "prove" that you actually said everything you said. You asked me to "prove" three different points, and I did by directly quoting you. You brushed that aside and moved on to a separate topic. I'm not going to give you the satisafction of watching me waste my time again just for you to ignore whatever I bring up.

I asked you to prove that i admitted to being a troll I agree with you that those were the points I made you seem to have misunderstood what I was asking I apoligize for not being more clear,

[Kloborgg711]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

You're right, the phrase "across the country" differs from the phrase "on the social.bioware.com" both in meaning and in the arrangement of letters. Congratulations, now what's the argument you're going to present based on that stunning analysis? Oh, three smiley faces? Interesting, interesting. I'll get back to you on that.

Oh, and "the poll is not entirely accurate and suffers from some bias" does not equal "LOL THROW IT OUT IT MEANS NOTHING". A slight bias does not account for a 2% satisfaction rate. This dealing in absolutes is hideously fallacious.

You already agreed it's not a good sample.  Bad data = bad conclusions.  "An inacurate and biased poll."  Your own words.  That means inacurate and biased conclusions.

The smiley faces are there because this is all in good fun, relax.  :)


This has been nice, but we're going around in circles.  It seems to me that the people who want the ending changed have more emotion than they have actual facts.  I haven't seen anything that convinces me otherwise.  Maybe next thread.

I still think we're going to see some kind of playable epilogue.  I hope we get something like that anyways, it would kick ass!

So you're ignoring everything I said? Neato. No one said the data is "good or bad" because absolutes like that are childish. I said it has SOME bias, meaning it's not ENTIRELY accurate. That doesn't mean it's ENTIRELY INACCURATE. Can you not comprehend this? 

And your "goal" in coming here was


"Hey, guys, prove to me that I'm stupid. Otherwise, you're wrong and stupid."
Nope, sorry, we cannot prove your own ignorance to you, that's your perogative.



EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot
:):):):):):):):):):):):):)
^That's just to clarify that I'm not being being at all condescending despite the actual content of my writing, hope that works.

Modifié par Kloborgg711, 18 mars 2012 - 06:08 .

[Lianaar]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...
I'm asking to be valued as a consumer, I'm demanding an explanation for why the endings are the way they are. I'm not demanding the ending be changed, I already saw what Bioware intended to do with the endings.

Just because I have always pointed out how I don't want the issue addressed, I am pointing out what sort of reaction I am happy to see, no matter wether or not I agree with the content. This handles the problem at the proper level and has valid requests which can be fulfilled.

[plaguecaller]

Or you could move your eyes up a tiny bit and see the huge thread where BIoware asks for input on what to change/add for new content and thousands are listing incredibly well-thought-out ideas. But then being such a bad troll would be so difficult, wouldn't it?

And this group shows so much trust in Bioware at the moment that it believes there is no chance of being copted by the game maker that caused you all this stress in the first place?

Maybe you have enough influence to ask them not to put any sand in the KY they are goling to use on you. - maybe not.


Niave I think the term is.

Modifié par plaguecaller, 18 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[HKR148]

...No [s], 80 bucks isn't a serious amount money, right? And no I do not identify myself as part of a movement, voicing my dissatisfaction as an individual customer is enough for me, and also voting against them with my money in a foreseeable future.

[Kloborgg711]

plaguecaller wrote...

Or you could move your eyes up a tiny bit and see the huge thread where BIoware asks for input on what to change/add for new content and thousands are listing incredibly well-thought-out ideas. But then being such a bad troll would be so difficult, wouldn't it?

And this group shows so much trust in Bioware at the moment that it believes there is no chance of being copted by the game maker that caused you all this stress in the first place?

Maybe you have enough influence to ask them not to put any sand in the KY they are goling to use on you. - maybe not.


Niave I think the term is.

I'm not familiar with niave, nor did I understand a single sentence of what you actually said there.
Jiburish I think the term is.

[Versus Omnibus]

We'll pack up when Bioware gives up on us, which in turn we'll give up on them.

[KaeserZen]

Lianaar wrote...

Mass Effect was not commissioned. It was made by BioWare and offered for people to buy it. Even in Renaissance some people refused to let their supporters tell them what and how to do things and they survived. So yes, it is pretty much just like Picasso (who by the way did make works on commission, but that's beside the point). And yes, it can be compared to a book way more then it can be compared to anything else. No matter what you do, you can not step out of the limits set by the writers of the game. You can not stay on Earth. It is just not an option. You -must- and -will- go off with the Normandy. You can not say you won't be Alliance military. You don't have those choices. No matter what you do, the frame is set and you move within that frame set. That's not too far away from a book. A video game is of course a different genre then literature, I don't argue that. But it is not table top RPG with a GM altering evens based on your choice.

Mass Effect 3 was commissioned in a way. They saw great demand from prospective consumers who wanted a conclusion to Shepard's epic, as well asa story that is well designed and making sense, choices with vastly different outcomes, and a ROI opportunity for EA and themselves. They didn't decide to make it because they wanted to share their deepest inner feelings with us.

If the commisionner of Mona Lisa hated her smile and wanted it changed, he would have requested Da Vinci to change it. Da Vinci may or may not have accepted, but it would have hurt his reputation, income and ROI if he didn't.

You have boundaries, yes, on a scale infinitely greater than a book, so I don't think it's comparable. The frame of Mass Effect is defined, but your position within it is flexible. For the endings, the only difference is the color of the space magic and Joker's eyes on the jungle planet. They failed to deliver what the bulk of the consumer expected (98% in the last poll), and they failed to keep up with their own words ("We don't want any endings in A, B, C")
Thus, they have effectively delivered something that was out of the implicit commission both the consumers AND the producers had in mind;

Lianaar wrote...
Legally the matter is pretty simple. BW has the intellectual property rights, not you. Thus is it their work, not yours.

Regardless, the choices mattered, just not where most people expected them.
Mass Effect has been a linear game, from the first game on. There never was a detour in the events, the elements came after each other. This didn't change whatsoever.

For linearity check my above comment. Mass effect isn't a road, it's a highway, with many lanes.

Yes, it is their work, we don't own it. But we have a say, because we own our free speech. And we are not simply raging, we are pointing them to their mistakes (the ones we perceive) and to suggestions to sweeten the deal.

Lianaar wrote...
I don't mind if someone comes to my door and asks me to change the doorknob.
But I think if people see that coming up to my house and issuing demands will make me appease them, I'll find myself living in a house that has no cohesion whatsoever and is simply ugly, because person A asking for the change of door and person B asking for the change of the window didn't care to match their tastes.

If you are not happy with the doorknob, you can request either a specific one, or another one chosen by the artisan. Your call, though you take the risk another one that doesn't suit you.

There will be cohesion and coherence without your input only if the artisan is capable enough to design it. If it isn't, you are entitled to provide suggestions to find some. Which is why your analogy with the baker and the sewer doesn't work. Fans don't want to make the product. They are providing BioWare with insight on how they think it should be made. When your are the consumer, your voice, expectations and preferences do matter if you want to be taken the most advantage of.

Lianaar wrote...
If I want to live in a house, I won't task 50000 different people to build me the 50 000 parts of the house. I'll task a single one, to arrange for the house to be built. There needs to be a leading idea, there must be a coherent and unified concept. And as I said over and over again: I worry that will be lost.

If the leading idea is destroyed by one out of place element that completely shreds it, would you be fine with it and swallow your pride ? Would you offer suggestions instead ?
Once again, wrong analogy, you are not talking about players making games, but about car manfacturer making video games for the players.

Lianaar wrote...
No, I am not sure it will be lost. This is also something I pointed out. I said, it might be good in the end (stated in my dress reference). But I still prefer to trust the professionals with their job because I deem the chance of success higher.

Once the professional skills are to be doubted of, wouldn't you step in ?

[HKR148]

KaeserZen wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

Mass Effect was not commissioned. It was made by BioWare and offered for people to buy it. Even in Renaissance some people refused to let their supporters tell them what and how to do things and they survived. So yes, it is pretty much just like Picasso (who by the way did make works on commission, but that's beside the point). And yes, it can be compared to a book way more then it can be compared to anything else. No matter what you do, you can not step out of the limits set by the writers of the game. You can not stay on Earth. It is just not an option. You -must- and -will- go off with the Normandy. You can not say you won't be Alliance military. You don't have those choices. No matter what you do, the frame is set and you move within that frame set. That's not too far away from a book. A video game is of course a different genre then literature, I don't argue that. But it is not table top RPG with a GM altering evens based on your choice.

Mass Effect 3 was commissioned in a way. They saw great demand from prospective consumers who wanted a conclusion to Shepard's epic, as well asa story that is well designed and making sense, choices with vastly different outcomes, and a ROI opportunity for EA and themselves. They didn't decide to make it because they wanted to share their deepest inner feelings with us.

If the commisionner of Mona Lisa hated her smile and wanted it changed, he would have requested Da Vinci to change it. Da Vinci may or may not have accepted, but it would have hurt his reputation, income and ROI if he didn't.

You have boundaries, yes, on a scale infinitely greater than a book, so I don't think it's comparable. The frame of Mass Effect is defined, but your position within it is flexible. For the endings, the only difference is the color of the space magic and Joker's eyes on the jungle planet. They failed to deliver what the bulk of the consumer expected (98% in the last poll), and they failed to keep up with their own words ("We don't want any endings in A, B, C")
Thus, they have effectively delivered something that was out of the implicit commission both the consumers AND the producers had in mind;

Lianaar wrote...
Legally the matter is pretty simple. BW has the intellectual property rights, not you. Thus is it their work, not yours.

Regardless, the choices mattered, just not where most people expected them.
Mass Effect has been a linear game, from the first game on. There never was a detour in the events, the elements came after each other. This didn't change whatsoever.

For linearity check my above comment. Mass effect isn't a road, it's a highway, with many lanes.

Yes, it is their work, we don't own it. But we have a say, because we own our free speech. And we are not simply raging, we are pointing them to their mistakes (the ones we perceive) and to suggestions to sweeten the deal.

Lianaar wrote...
I don't mind if someone comes to my door and asks me to change the doorknob.
But I think if people see that coming up to my house and issuing demands will make me appease them, I'll find myself living in a house that has no cohesion whatsoever and is simply ugly, because person A asking for the change of door and person B asking for the change of the window didn't care to match their tastes.

If you are not happy with the doorknob, you can request either a specific one, or another one chosen by the artisan. Your call, though you take the risk another one that doesn't suit you.

There will be cohesion and coherence without your input only if the artisan is capable enough to design it. If it isn't, you are entitled to provide suggestions to find some. Which is why your analogy with the baker and the sewer doesn't work. Fans don't want to make the product. They are providing BioWare with insight on how they think it should be made. When your are the consumer, your voice, expectations and preferences do matter if you want to be taken the most advantage of.

Lianaar wrote...
If I want to live in a house, I won't task 50000 different people to build me the 50 000 parts of the house. I'll task a single one, to arrange for the house to be built. There needs to be a leading idea, there must be a coherent and unified concept. And as I said over and over again: I worry that will be lost.

If the leading idea is destroyed by one out of place element that completely shreds it, would you be fine with it and swallow your pride ? Would you offer suggestions instead ?
Once again, wrong analogy, you are not talking about players making games, but about car manfacturer making video games for the players.

Lianaar wrote...
No, I am not sure it will be lost. This is also something I pointed out. I said, it might be good in the end (stated in my dress reference). But I still prefer to trust the professionals with their job because I deem the chance of success higher.

Once the professional skills are to be doubted of, wouldn't you step in ?

Have to say, based on the interviews they were doing prior to the launch, they clearly knew what the customers wanted on Mass Effect 3 even if it was just a PR control. If that's the case, why do this?

[KaeserZen]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

You already agreed it's not a good sample.  Bad data = bad conclusions.  "An inacurate and biased poll."  Your own words.  That means inacurate and biased conclusions.

Check my reply, last post on the previous page, you'll see that is is a poll more repsentative than most thing our politicians rely on to drive the countries.

[Deemz]

Sure they already have out money from this game but, from the majority of the people upset with the ending they will never see another penny of sales.

Is that enough to make a difference? Maybe. Lets not forget that RPGs are a niche market and not nearly as popular as FPS games. Can they replace a large portion of their fan base easily? Maybe but it will be tough because not as many people play RPGs.

The last couple of games that Bioware has put out have not done as well as they would have liked. I am one of the few that actually like DA2 though. Bioware needs to fix it's reputation with the people that made them successful in the first place. Without the support of their loyal fans and buying ME when nobody had even heard of their new IP, there would have never been a ME2 or ME3.

[Egonne]

Bioware is taking on a giant in the industry: Blizzard and World of Warcraft.

And one of their main selling points? Story

Quote from faq's
"At BioWare and LucasArts, we believe most MMOs ignore an important fourth pillar: story."

This SERIOUSLY hinders their future sales. They have built up a trust that when they say 'this game has a good story' then they are correct. But ME3 didn't deliver as promised. Basically when it came down to it they were willing to cut corners on a good product.

Loyal fan base helps sales. I personally convinced many people to buy and play the ME games. because I wanted to share the great experience. Now...not so much.

I can't stand by their products anymore, and I don't trust their view of what a good story is. Nor do I trust their view on what 'multiple different endings' means.

[HKR148]

DarthTrey wrote...

 Wow, so the "Retake ME3" movement wants to hurt the sales of Mass Effect 3 in order to get Bioware to change the ending...

First of all, if a game doesn't do well, the last thing a developer is going to do is want to continue supporting it. The cost of development time and marketting are not worth it at all if the game isn't doing well. Up until this point, I was respectful of the Retake movement, but I am starting to agree that a good portion of its supporters are entitled whiners. The game hasn't even been out for two weeks! You have no idea what Bioware plans on doing with dlc or the series in general. And regardless of how you feel about the ending, Mass Effect has been a great journey. Why would fans intentionally try to hurt the series? Way to spit in the face of Bioware. We as gamers have the easy job, we just get to play the game and **** about it on the forums. The Bioware team has put countless hours and sleepless nights into this series. Way to be loyal fans. 

Don't identify myself as part of a movement, but your argument is completely based on the judgmental values.  I could simply care less about the eventual demolition of Bioware as a company if they continue to product below satisfactory products. It's simple basic capitalism and they fully deserve to go down if they can't adapt to the current market. I've been purchasing their game since Baldur's Gate II and I am only here to voice my dissatisfaction against the product I've spent 70 bucks for and telling the company on what condition I will continue purchasing their product in any foreseeable future.

I've had enough of their slowly-dropping standard products they've been releasing lately.

Modifié par HKR148, 18 mars 2012 - 06:21 .