169 réponses à ce sujet

[TheCinC]

Good document, basically it shows irrefutably how odd the ending really is. You can basically call into question every single line and every single thing that happens at the end. Interestingly, it states that the document was written because the writer could not understand the ending not being done this way intentionally. Considering Shepard wakes up, presumably in London, when you choose the red (destroy Reapers and Geth) option and considering the theory of indoctrination, I am now convinced that this was indeed intentional. So, which bright boy or girl decided to end a trilogy with a cliffhanger? Did they really expect us to laugh this off and then happily buy DLC to see how Shepard's story really ends? Which you might say is what Stargazer and the final notice imply? Does this mean that there actually already is DLC in place or at least in development, ready to finish the story? I assume that DLC is going to be free since we already paid for a full game/because it is clear that over 50,000 fans are not going to stand for this? I for one will not be recommending the game to any of my friends now I've seen that the game is brilliant, but basically incomplete. That would be akin to recommending a game that crashes consistently and is therefore unplayable.

Heck, even the original Neon Genesis Evangelion series had a better ending than this.

Also, why does the game reset at the end to the point where Shepard is on the Normandy, just before the assault on TIM's base? To give you a chance to do some multiplayer, increase your efficiency rating and then try over to see a different coloured ending?

Modifié par TheCinC, 18 mars 2012 - 10:23 .

[SpideyKnight]

 One thing that probably needs to be added to the sheet is that same try to debunk the relays decimating solar systems with Jessica Merizan's comment about how these might be "different sorts of explosions."  Or somesuch nonsense.  Anyway that claim is just as easily refuted.  If they are "different" why is each explosion breaking apart the Normandy?  The most advanced ship in the fleet, I might add.  If they aren't dangerous why is Joker frantically running from them at full speed?  The Normandy escapes from the explosions, how about every other ship in the victory fleet?  

We know that the explosions are at least dangerous to ships.  What happens to all of them?  The entire Flotilla is there.  Even if all solar systems aren't doomed, even if they are "different" explosions.  The ending shows they are dangerous to ships and the entire victory fleet is sitting next to Earth.  Are they all screwed?  This is why people who really know how to write and think seek closure.  Anything less is unimaginative vapid bs.

Modifié par SpideyKnight, 18 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[AzaZeLgaming]

Awesome document, kudos to you sir.

[Cobra's_back]

MatronAdena wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

MatronAdena wrote...

I posted this earlier, would love if anyone out there can look into it and see if it's been covered or If Im remembering it right:

during the space battle it actually seemed that the super alliance had actually been gaining the upper hand,

part of he idea comes with the crucible's arrival , seriously look at the size of it

god kid said he knew what it was all about, by that the reapers must have...yet somehow they can get it from the relay to earth unscathed , and dock it to the citadel unscathed.

if this was all really playing out, and harby jr KNEW that was a bad thing the reapers SHOULD have been focusing fire on that thing the moment it showed up..

it all really felt like the reapers were actually loosing ground


of course then when space magic happens the ONLY ships in the space shots were reapers.


meaning that at some point after the Admiral said " nothings happening" -meaning they were still there and watching" and the time the beam happens every single super alliance craft fell back and left the system? they didnt stay there to defend their " only hope to stoping the reapers" and buy shep time?




something I'd love some insight on.

You have a very good point here. It really doe seem like we were having the upper hand. 

I was hit with it as soon as someone mentioned space...I thought back to the scene with the beam /ulse going out  ( which was mere moments after you make a choice, and in the bg you seee the battle quite clearly)

yet when it goes " poof" across the system, the scenes had ONLY Reapers

where the hell did everyone else go so fast?


I initially questioned that because I picked destroy.....yet Edi came out of the ship ( still wondering if that was more of a glitch giving her the most used flag) as that was STATED to be an impossibility through destroy

so I was wanting to see if Geth ships got wiped out too in the scene, only to notice the lack of everyone but reapers to start with.

so basically Im stuck with a glitch, or Harby JR was full of crap ( which I felt he was anyway)

Totally correct. Harby JR did seem full of crap.

[TK EL_]

KylieDog wrote...

Not at all, when only the demo was out I theorised the child was the result of indoctrination, however this article is just bogus on many claims, examples:

Arrival confirming Relay explosions wipe out star systems...NOT A FACT, ramming an asteroid into one does that sure, we have no idea in what manner the citadel force the explosions, if you watch the video it seems to be channelling it into a burst to the next relay.  It would make more sense that half the galaxy isn't nuked by design.

Joker apparently MUST exit at a mass relay, where he would then be destroyed instantly, this is apparently all fact except my above example allows for a passage of escape.  Secondly, he could have been forced to drop out at a point between the 2 mass relays if the ships engines went to hell and that wave caught up, which it looked like.

How did Hackett know someone was alive on the Citadel?  Apparently a fact that he knows everyone died....except Hackett would have known someone was on it because it opened up for the Crucible to connect.  He believes in Shepard, fair to assume he would try contact him/her.

There are many more silly assumptions that overlook thngs or just other possibilities.


Sorry you don't just get to lable me a hater based on nothing

Fail.

After channelling the 'energy', the relay then blows up as is evident from the chunks of metal sent flying. If anything, the asteroid that hit the alpha relay would absorb some of the blast. The relays explode and there is no reason why it should be any different from how it was in arrival.

You cant have it both ways. The space magic is supposed to be non lethal, so it shouldn't have any effect on the normandy, so then the only thing that can cause damage to it is the explosion of the mass relay which you are disputing is on a large scale. Mass relay transit is supposed to be 'instantaneous', so him dropping out half way is bs. 

[Darth_Trethon]

All those flaws add up to one thing: the indoctrination theory MUST be true....in dreams and hallucinations things tend to be nonsensical.

[WazTheMagnificent]

TK EL wrote...

KylieDog wrote...

Not at all, when only the demo was out I theorised the child was the result of indoctrination, however this article is just bogus on many claims, examples:

Arrival confirming Relay explosions wipe out star systems...NOT A FACT, ramming an asteroid into one does that sure, we have no idea in what manner the citadel force the explosions, if you watch the video it seems to be channelling it into a burst to the next relay.  It would make more sense that half the galaxy isn't nuked by design.

Joker apparently MUST exit at a mass relay, where he would then be destroyed instantly, this is apparently all fact except my above example allows for a passage of escape.  Secondly, he could have been forced to drop out at a point between the 2 mass relays if the ships engines went to hell and that wave caught up, which it looked like.

How did Hackett know someone was alive on the Citadel?  Apparently a fact that he knows everyone died....except Hackett would have known someone was on it because it opened up for the Crucible to connect.  He believes in Shepard, fair to assume he would try contact him/her.

There are many more silly assumptions that overlook thngs or just other possibilities.


Sorry you don't just get to lable me a hater based on nothing

Fail.

After channelling the 'energy', the relay then blows up as is evident from the chunks of metal sent flying. If anything, the asteroid that hit the alpha relay would absorb some of the blast. The relays explode and there is no reason why it should be any different from how it was in arrival.

You cant have it both ways. The space magic is supposed to be non lethal, so it shouldn't have any effect on the normandy, so then the only thing that can cause damage to it is the explosion of the mass relay which you are disputing is on a large scale. Mass relay transit is supposed to be 'instantaneous', so him dropping out half way is bs. 

You can't dropout halfway becuase you EXPLODE.

According to the codex anyway.

[beyzend]

oh I like to say there are minor plot holes and major plot holes. So I take some of what I say back because a few of the plot holes are so serious it ruins everything. There are speculations and then there is just What.The.****. And the serious plot holes are truly What.The.****.

Modifié par beyzend, 18 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[Avl521]

This is just ridiculous. Grasping at straws. PURE speculation based on the person who wrote it wanting to prove the indoctrination theory too badly. It's also mono-gendered which makes it awkward for those of us with a male Shepard.

Some of the things he said ARE indeed plot holes and unexplained situations. But A LOT is just speculation and frankly as I read it I thought it was quite desperate.

[beyzend]

Avl521 wrote...

This is just ridiculous. Grasping at straws. PURE speculation based on the person who wrote it wanting to prove the indoctrination theory too badly. It's also mono-gendered which makes it awkward for those of us with a male Shepard.

Some of the things he said ARE indeed plot holes and unexplained situations. But A LOT is just speculation and frankly as I read it I thought it was quite desperate.

Yeah that's what I said at first. Except the serious ones are so bad that it ruins the entire series.

[WazTheMagnificent]

Avl521 wrote...

This is just ridiculous. Grasping at straws. PURE speculation based on the person who wrote it wanting to prove the indoctrination theory too badly. It's also mono-gendered which makes it awkward for those of us with a male Shepard.

Some of the things he said ARE indeed plot holes and unexplained situations. But A LOT is just speculation and frankly as I read it I thought it was quite desperate.

I think you are grasping at straws if you think mono-gendered is a criticism. Jesus Christ.

[Agamo45]

Good read, but a bit hard to take seriously. For some reason the author kept referring to Commander Shepard as 'she', as if he was a woman.

[Avl521]

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

Avl521 wrote...

This is just ridiculous. Grasping at straws. PURE speculation based on the person who wrote it wanting to prove the indoctrination theory too badly. It's also mono-gendered which makes it awkward for those of us with a male Shepard.

Some of the things he said ARE indeed plot holes and unexplained situations. But A LOT is just speculation and frankly as I read it I thought it was quite desperate.

I think you are grasping at straws if you think mono-gendered is a criticism. Jesus Christ.

I'm saying that the article is clearly defining Shepard as a female. Which makes it an awkward read for those of us with a Male Shepard.

So yes, I'm saying a mono-gendered written article is annoying for me, which is therefore one of the points I think are wrong with the article. I'll write what I think is wrong with the article in the next post. But yes, I'm making a criticism of the article because it is a mono-gendered lecture.

Problem?

[Karait]

Omg I only ever play male shep and I couldn't care less how the author addressed Shepard.

Keep this article up and hold the line.

[WhiteVV1ings]

Great document and keep up the great work.

Hold the line.

[recyclebin2000]

Marauder Shields approvs

[Avl521]

 Ok so things I think are wrong with the article:[list][*]It constantly enforces or uses the words dreams, as if trying to prove indoctrination theory. For an article with its main concern being to state WHY the ending makes no sense, it sure as hell reads as an article trying to convince people of the indoctrination theory.[*]The article is written assuming Shepard is a female, which makes it awkward for some of us that play a Male Shepard. For intents of being a better read for everyone, the writer could have just said "Shepard" instead of using he or she, allowing every reader to fill Shepard with their particular Shepard.
[*]The point where the article mentions Anderson's description of where he is simply ASSUMES that what he's saying are lies. How does the writer KNOW there's only one hallway? For all we know there ARE other hallways like that. Anderson could be telling the truth, and he merely ended up in another hallway that COULD be adjacent to where Shepard ended. There are also doors, as evidenced by Shepard opening one to reach the walkway to the circular room. If Anderson ends up in a hallway different, then exits and the door closes behind him that explains why Shepard only sees one dark hallway.
[*]The writer assumes how Anderson would behave. For all we know he was describing the environments he was walking through to see if he could regroup with Shepard. Yet the writer just assumes Anderson is going ahead without thinking and pushing forward for the sake of it. If you don't know where you are, and you don't know where your partner is, the behavior of walking carefully and describing environments can be rational.[*]He then assumes "NOBODY would describe the equipment therein as walls" How does the writer know that? People are so vastly different from psychology, intelligence, upbringing, experiences and so many different things, that you can't just assume NOBODY would do something like that. If you follow chronological order, Anderson says: "Woah... One of the walls here just realigned itself. The place is shifting. Changing."  The writer just ASSUMES the moving walls Anderson saw are the ones where the chasm and bridge are. But Anderson only mentions a chasm AFTER mentioning the moving walls. So it's easier to think the moving wall was WITHIN the dark hallway Anderson was in, and is therefore not the same "Shadow Broker ship" styled moving panels.[*]Then the writer asks "How is the Illusive man controlling Shepard and Anderson?" and dismisses this as impossible because "they don't have control chips." It's as if the writer couldn't see or didn't see the sequence where Cerberus soldiers are clearly augmented with Reaper tech. The Illusive Man is clearly augmented with Reaper tech by that final scene with him too. And the writer seems to have not seen the scenes where due to Miranda's father's work, they can control Reaper forces by manipulating the signal. This signal could in itself allow The Illusive Man to control Anderson and Shepard. It's possible, it's an assumption, but the writer says the scene is not possible, dismissing previous learnings that happened within the game itself. He furthers this by saying "there is no precedent for one indoctrination victim channeling the influence of the Reapers and commanding the body of another..." Well there may be no precedent, and this may be the first time that happens. So what? Why is that so impossible to believe? TIM is clearly indoctrinated and augmented by Reaper tech. He's also been working on Reaper tech to augment soldiers and to manipulate the Reaper signal to control them. Why is it so impossible that he augmented himself and uses his manipulated Reaper signal to control or indoctrinate Shepard and Anderson? Why say it's impossible?[*]Next, the article metions the Reaper sounds and black tendrils or tentacles as a clear sign of indoctrination. Yes, it could be. Bu it could also be the way TIM's control manifests itself over Shepard. So? Once again pure speculation.[*]Following that, the writer asks how is TIM so sure the crucible can control the Reapers when all the scientists working on it couldn't? Well, for one TIM has Reaper augmentation and apparently has contact with the Reapers somehow. He also had the Mars archives information and the Prothean VI. He has also dedicated his life to studying Reapers as he says. Why is it so unimaginable for him to believe that he can somehow use the power of the Crucible and the Catalyst to augment his manipulated Reaper signal to control them? Furthermore, his words shouldn't be considered as he's 100% certain, but as he completely believes in his plan.[*]How does he know that what's moving in the background is "heavy traffic" it could be the citadel realigning itself as Anderson said. It could be the Keepers or Reapers somehow movilizing human bodies for processing. Again, pure speculation.[*]One of the most stupid points and I quote: "Hackett suddenly radios Shepard and assumes he/she is in the Citadel. This makes absolutely no sense. Why would Hackett assume Shepard is alive and inside the Citadel when the ground forces specifically stated that nobody from the assault team survived?" Well uhm... Didn't you just see the Citadel OPENING ITS ARMS????? That makes it quite clear SOMEONE made it up there despite what the reports said, and Shepard is the most likely one out of them all. It's not necessary for Hackett to be sure Shepard is there for him to just assume it. Just like the writer assumed a bunch of stuff, after seeing the Citadel arms open Hackett could just say "Shepard! Commander!" whether Shepard is there or not is irrelevant. Hackett hopes whoever opened the arms is Shepard. Whoever answers has no bearing on what happened, happens, or will happen. But then Shepard answers and Hackett orders him to check why the Crucible is not firing.[*]Then the writer assumes "Reapers leave synthetics untouched." How does the writer know that? It is never shown what happens to the Synthetics after the Reapers end the cycle. The Geth were being used, how do we know the Reapers won't just destroy all of them after they've finished harvesting? The Zha'til are definitely not around anymore therefore it's a safe assumption to say after the Reapers are done with the organics of that cycle (The Protheans) they destroy the threatening AI to prevent it from invading other worlds. So whether the Zha'til were defeated by The Protheans or the Reapers, with the fact that the cycle has gone on until now it's safe to conclude Reapers do not leave AI and synthetics untouched. Otherwise after the Reapers kill the most advanced organic races, a synthetic AI race with Mass Effect technology would be left untouched for 50.000 years. That is just a ridiculous assumption. So again, the article speculates and assumes a lot of stuff.[*]Writer also states: "For him to be so absolutely assured of this theory, it must have happened at some point in the history of the galaxy. However, if "all" organic life was extinguished at any point in time, organic life would not presently exist. The Child's assertion is disingenuous.[/b]" Ok, so HOW DID organic life appeared in the first place? You're telling me that when the universe began, either through Big Bang or any other scientific or religious theory, organic life existed because if it didn't we wouldn't be here? No. Just no. Whether through chemical pricesses, evolution, chance, or a God that created organic life, organic life just appeared at some point. If synthetics destroy all organic life, even to the microscopic level, what prevents that from happening again somewhere else in the galaxy or the universe?[*]The writer assumes "untold number of reapers are lost in the galactic war." How do you know how many are lost? So far we've seen only the derelict Reaper on ME2 and Sovereign in ME1 being destroyed. Then we see 3 smaller Reapers being destroyed in Mass Effect 3. How does the writer know these smaller Reapers are produced in the same way as the squid like giant starship Reapers? We don't know enough to be sure how many Reapers are lost or created with a war. We don't know if the Reapers we killed in ME3 even count as actual Reapers or if they are built from metal as normal machines. AGAIN, the writer just assumes a bunch of stuff. If you're not sure of something, don't use it as proof to validate your claims because by not being sure the "proof" you have can and will be used against you.[*]The next point is why bring the Ciyadel to Earth and why attack Earth first. The Reapers have a clear interest in humanity that spans from ME2. Why attack humanity first? Who knows! But ever since ME2 Humanity has been the major interest of the Reapers. Shepard is a major interest for Harbinger. So why the hell not? Besides, if I'm not mistaken, Reapers destroyed the Batarians first. Otherwise there wouldn't be the whole "My race was killed because of you boo hoo buaha" dialogue with that Batarian in the Citadel, and there wouldn't be Cannibals on Earth. Why bring the Citadel to Earth? They needed to protect it and I believe it was clearly stated Harbinger and other Reapers had moved there too to protect it. They obviously wanted to do something with the Citadel, hence why they transported Humans through the London beam. Whether they were trying to protect the Citadel while building a Human Reaper there or not is not relevant, but I see nothing wrong with moving your biggest asset and weakness to the place where most of your forces are and where your major interest lies.[*]The writer then mentions that with the whole Citadel thing the actions of the Collectors and ME2 make little sense. News for you: With The Catalyst ME1 and ME2 don't make sense at all. However the employment of the Collectors was to begin building the Human Reaper, and EDI states that it would take MILLIONS of Humans to complete him. If you start building him from small colonies (thousands of people either way) by ME2, when you invade Earth in ME3 you'd need less Humans, less resources, less time in the middle of a war which makes everything easier and faster. Shepard destroyed the Human Reaper so they had to start over.[*]The writer then goes on to assume a bunch of stuff about whether or not the three choices were available billions of years ago, Assume a bunch of stuff about if the choices existed or not or were fabricated or not or if they are in the Citadel or in the Crucible and a lot of stuff. I'll just leave that be because it's pure speculation.[*]The writer assumes Shepard is the only being capable of utilizing the device. No, that's just plain wrong. If the Crucible is, as was stated, designed by countless races along all these millenia, then every one of those races COULD have used the Crucible. This cycle is just the first one able to build the Crucible and attach it to the Citadel, and Shepard is the first organic to have reached that place so no, he's not THE ONLY ONE capable of using it, he's just merely the first.[*]Then we get ONCE AGAIN the "Arrival states when a Mass Relay is destroyed there's a Supernova." AGAIN: That happens when it is destroyed by conventional means. How does the writer knows that happesn EVERY SINGLE TIME. For what we see, The Relays could have been used to direct/transfer/transport the energy of the Crucible throughout the galaxy. There doesn't need to be an explosion or a Supernova. A Supernova is basically a gigantic explosion, however energy is not always released in explosions. It can be released as an EMP, as Microwaves, as Gamma Rays, X-Rays, Mass Effect 3 just introduces a new way for massive amounts of energy to be released: Space Magic  and countless other ways that not always end with an explosion, so no, just because the Relay in Arrival Supernova'd that doesn't mean EVERY single Relay will Supernova, especially when we don't know what the Crucible does or what power or energy type it uses.[*]"Why is the Normandy wrecked when the Space Magic is pursuing it if it didn't harm the occupant of the ship?" Uhm... Have you thought about the fact that if the Normandy was in the middle of a Mass Relay FTL jump/travel? The Mass Relays as stated in the codex create a corridor where there is no virtually no mass and no resistance whatsoever making the ship go extremely fast. That's according to Lore, I won't concern myself with actual physics because it would be too hard to explain and justify. If you're in the middle of that travel and the Relays collapse, then the corridor collapses. That could explain why the ship is destroyed. Yes, it's assumption, but so is what the writer says in the article. I'm countering speculation with speculation [*]Last thing: Why are you so sure that's *Shepard* and that it's an *Awakening*. For all we know that's any soldier with N7 tags whether his tags or Shepard tags that he retrieved somehow. And for all we know that is not an awakening, it could very well be a last inhalation and since it then cuts to black it could have been Shepard's Last Breath. Shepard is not the only known N7, we have as stated by the wiki: [*]David Anderson - One of the first graduates of the N7 training program.[*]Commander Shepard[*]Kai Leng - Former Alliance Marine and current Cerberus operative.[*]Lee Riley - An N7 operative commended for her actions on Cyone.[*]James Vega - Offered entry into the program during his stay on the Normandy. He may decide to accept the offer depending on the actions of Commander Shepard.[*]A news report by Emily Wong on the Citadel in 2185, states that a team of N7 Marines were deployed in batarian space from a Normandy class Stealth Frigate.
Considering we're battling for Earth, it's not hard to believe there are more N7s around.
All in all, PURE SPECULATION. An article that claims to be about: 
"A Logical Breakdown of Why the Mass Effect 3 Ending Makes No Sense"
Yet all it does is try to explain, with pure assumption and make believe, why indoctrination theory is right.

A lot of what the document says is true, but some other things are just like the ME3 ending it's trying to bash:
SPAAACEE MAAAGIIIC!!! 
Edit: There are some typos. I corrected some but I can't be bothered to correct them all. I excuse myself for the typos, but the ideas are clear enough. I am in no way supporting BioWare or their ending to ME3 which I consider hideous, traumatic, bringer of ruin to the entire Mass Effect Series and a reason of torment of my dreams for a long time to come. However, I just can't stand people that assume a bunch of stuff just to make it fit with the Indoctrination, or as I call it, Denial theory. I know I assumed and speculated as well, but I did it just to prove that the writer's speculation was just that, speculation and as such allowed half a*sed explanations and allowed his points to be proven wrong.

Modifié par Avl521, 19 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Agamo45 wrote...

Good read, but a bit hard to take seriously. For some reason the author kept referring to Commander Shepard as 'she', as if he was a woman.

Maybe their Shepard was female?

[curufinwe03]

This document is a valuable asset to our movement. Thank you dear author, for your great work.
...
If this would be twitter, I'd just say "Awesome! What did you like most about the ending?"

[lashrouxed]

Doc just made the news over at Destructoid! sweeet