587 réponses à ce sujet

[meisjoe]

I don't want them to get sued - I just want them to get to work on a DLC that adds more endings, and expands on the current endings... something that pays tribute to all the choices we made through the series. Make it, I'll pay for it = everyone's happy.

[Tazzmission]

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

dbal wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

I get that you're very disappointed but this isn't of a magnitude serious enough for the FTC. I don't like the endings and I generally support the Retake movement, but this is outside the FTC's interests.

Technically speaking the FTC can intervene because of the scale of complaint. There is clear liability on the part of Bioware to fulfill its obligations in example the numerous citations that the game will use the gamer's data to affect the end product. This alone constitute gross violation of consumer protection. The fact that you were promised something in the development of a product only to find out that its not the actual product you specified.

They created a game people enjoy.......wait how can the FTC do anything?

If someone didnt like the game then they dont have to play it. If someone reads a book and didnt enjoy it, they dont have to read it. Its bioware's product and their IP. The fans have no rights to it. There is no entitlement for the fans.

If that's the case then they shouldn't have released it in the first place, if they didn't want their "product" to be subjected to scrutiny and used by the public.

um do you really think there just going to scrap millions of dollars of work do to your claim of scrutiny argument?

[GeneralYin]

T1l wrote...

If the Fair Trade Commission gets involved in this, even if they look sideways at this, it sets a bad precedent. I purchase a book with the belief that I am going to enjoy it; for example A Song of Ice and Fire. I get invested in the characters; for example, Ned Stark. George R.R. Martin decides in his infinite wisdom to remove said character in a way that I find particularly unappealing - do I have a right to go to the Fair Trade Commission?

Not sure the Fair Trade Commission can get involded with something so... grey(?) as personal preference and opinion.

The main argument against that is Bioware gave away some of its rights for artistic expression when they included their fanbase in the development process to the degree they did. This is no longer a piece of art created by the creator alone. ME is Biowares IP. We can't change that, and I at least am not contesting that the IP should belong to us. But when you have a piece of 'art' like the ME trilogy that is a joint work, half a decade in the making, between fan and creator, the fans as consumers and creators themselves should be allowed to voice their concerns.

And about FTC, going too far. It only hurts credibility regardless of whether or not the commission picks it up and runs with it.

Modifié par GeneralYin, 19 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[dbal]

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

dbal wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

I get that you're very disappointed but this isn't of a magnitude serious enough for the FTC. I don't like the endings and I generally support the Retake movement, but this is outside the FTC's interests.

Technically speaking the FTC can intervene because of the scale of complaint. There is clear liability on the part of Bioware to fulfill its obligations in example the numerous citations that the game will use the gamer's data to affect the end product. This alone constitute gross violation of consumer protection. The fact that you were promised something in the development of a product only to find out that its not the actual product you specified.

They created a game people enjoy.......wait how can the FTC do anything?

If someone didnt like the game then they dont have to play it. If someone reads a book and didnt enjoy it, they dont have to read it. Its bioware's product and their IP. The fans have no rights to it. There is no entitlement for the fans.

If that's the case then they shouldn't have released it in the first place, if they didn't want their "product" to be subjected to scrutiny and used by the public.

It doesnt matter how much bashing bioware takes, All the rights to the mass effect story is theirs. They can do what ever they want with it. They released their game for the same reasons an author creates his stories and shares them.

[Blarty]

Interesting.... Have any of you considered the possibility that the entirety of ME3 is basically a sequence of endings, many of them based on, or factor in, your prior decisions in ME1 and ME2. For myself, the point of the Mass Effect series is showing that you have choices, the choices have consequences and they themselves have an aftermath, thus when you get to the end of ME3, the endings, whilst not explained, you as a player having experience of the consequences to prior decisions, take a very big decision that Bioware leaves the consequences of to a huge amount of interpretation, including any possibility of the Indoctrination theory. Personally, I think that reducing the entirety of the game, and ultimately, the series and your playtime to 5 mins at the end is incredibly short sighted.

You might disagree with my opinion, but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours.

Modifié par Blarty, 19 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[GeneralYin]

dbal wrote...

It doesnt matter how much bashing bioware takes, All the rights to the mass effect story is theirs. They can do what ever they want with it. They released their game for the same reasons an author creates his stories and shares them.

The main argument against that is Bioware gave away some of its rights when they designed ME the way they did; as a role playing game. The narrative and verse are expressions of artistic vision, but they lost some of that immunity to fan concerns when they included their fanbase in the development process to the degree they did. This is no longer a piece of art created by the creator alone for the creator's sake. Yes, ME is Biowares IP. We can't change that, and I at least am not arguing that the IP should belong to us. That is ridiculous. But when you have a piece of 'art' like the ME trilogy that is a joint work, half a decade in the making, between fan and creator, and a narrative style that gives the player some creative freedom to write their own story within the bounds that Bioware has set, the fans as consumers and creators themselves should be allowed to voice their concerns. 

[dbal]

GeneralYin wrote...

dbal wrote...

It doesnt matter how much bashing bioware takes, All the rights to the mass effect story is theirs. They can do what ever they want with it. They released their game for the same reasons an author creates his stories and shares them.

The main argument against that is Bioware gave away some of its rights when they designed ME the way they did; as a role playing game. The narrative and verse are expressions of artistic vision, but they lost some of that immunity to fan concerns when they included their fanbase in the development process to the degree they did. This is no longer a piece of art created by the creator alone for the creator's sake. Yes, ME is Biowares IP. We can't change that, and I at least am not arguing that the IP should belong to us. That is ridiculous. But when you have a piece of 'art' like the ME trilogy that is a joint work, half a decade in the making, between fan and creator, and a narrative style that gives the player some creative freedom to write their own story within the bounds that Bioware has set, the fans as consumers and creators themselves should be allowed to voice their concerns. 

Fans didnt create the game, Bioware did. Bioware gave no rights to the fans for it. Bioware took player feedback. They listened but they also kept the game theirs.

[Kub666]

Blarty wrote...

Have any of you considered the possibility that the entirety of ME3 is basically a sequence of endings, many of them based on, or factor in, your prior decisions in ME1 and ME2.

True that, but the game's title is not "Mass Effect: The Ending", but "Mass Effect 3". The way the game was advertised and the quotes in OP are clearly about ending of ME3.

I get what you're saying but it's a bit of grasping at straws trying to defend EA at this point.

[GeneralYin]

Blarty wrote...

Interesting.... Have any of you considered the possibility that the entirety of ME3 is basically a sequence of endings, many of them based on, or factor in, your prior decisions in ME1 and ME2. For myself, the point of the Mass Effect series is showing that you have choices, the choices have consequences and they themselves have an aftermath, thus when you get to the end of ME3, the endings, whilst not explained, you as a player having experience of the consequences to prior decisions, take a very big decision that Bioware leaves the consequences of to a huge amount of interpretation, including any possibility of the Indoctrination theory. Personally, I think that reducing the entirety of the game, and ultimately, the series and your playtime to 5 mins at the end is incredibly short sighted.

You might disagree with my opinion, but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours.

I don't follow. What do you mean?

[zsom]

A lot of these things are actually true, they just didn't play out the way I expected it. ME3 has different endings (6 of them), they are affected by your choices (especially destruction) although it is never explained how they affected it, and there is no perfect ending.

The one thing that is 100% missing is the ending where the reapers win. But that was a very old qoute, I guess it was changed.

The only thing you've proven is that twisting the truth is something you are fine with, as long is it's you telling the lies...

[Blarty]

Kub666 wrote...

Blarty wrote...

Have any of you considered the possibility that the entirety of ME3 is basically a sequence of endings, many of them based on, or factor in, your prior decisions in ME1 and ME2.

True that, but the game's title is not "Mass Effect: The Ending", but "Mass Effect 3". The way the game was advertised and the quotes in OP are clearly about ending of ME3.

I get what you're saying but it's a bit of grasping at straws trying to defend EA at this point.

Im not trying to defend EA, but by the same token I'm not going to go all torches and pitchforks at the gates because there's an ending that I don't fully understand and don't have Codex entries explaining them, multiple pieces of Mass Effect come to an end and have closure, but there's some parts that are still left open - I can deal with that, others can't, and I, like many others, would like some answers, and a degree of clarification, but some are going completely OTT with this.

[BaronFel124]

Dreez wrote...


Quoted from another forum.  This is why Bioware and EA should  be sued for
false advertisement and misleading information / lying to customers.


Whether or not you enjoyed the conclusion to Mass Effect 3 (personally I feel
it tarnished an otherwise masterful series) please take a look at the
pre-release quotes below from websites and interviews with the game's
developers, writers and producers.

Does all that talk of meaningful player choice, multiple significantly
different endings and closure for the characters and series not seem,
at the very least, strange?

I believe Bioware can be legitimately accused of, at best, fudging the
truth if not outright deceit given the inconsistency between notions
of choice, closure etc. expressed before the game was released and
the ending as it currently stands.

In my opinion Bioware produced a badly written, ill-conceived shambles
of an ending riddled with plot holes and logical inconsistencies but
even if you loved the final moments of this great game do you really
think what was stated in the interviews below has been proved true?

Maybe Walters, Gamble, Hudson et al will be proved right when a decent
ending is released via (presumably free) DLC that explains the
original ending was just some sort of hallucination/indoctrination.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though.


1) Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”

2) Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

3) Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “

4) Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

5) Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

6) Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

7) Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”

8) Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

9) Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”


EDIT: Couple more interesting quotes I found, enjoy......or not.


10) Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever
before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle
for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike
Gamble.


In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot,
including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply
said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he
said, "Yes".


11) Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html


"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play
all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll
still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a
totally different way of playing"


12) Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”

13) Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And
even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to
some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending
where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things
- it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the
final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who
plays it.”

First off I numbered your quotes for ease of response.

Secondly, most of these talk about perceptions, opinions, non-definiable thngs totally useless to try and sue/claim someone lied about. (Unless I can sue those damn juice adds that always promise me 'Intense flavor' Damn liars...)

Anyway:

1) Is true, this would be the end piece and our choices did determine our outcomes (wether you like those outcomes or not.)

2) Well the Rachni get a cool special mission haven't done the anti-rachni play through so I can't say exactly how diffirent it is, but there is also a bit of dialogue about them and some various e-mails and such (plus EMS points) so while not huge they have a noticable presence (and a certain enemy type are totally all over the final battle thinking of that.)

3) Are you saying this guy believes there are optimal endings if he's lying when he says he doesn't believe in them? How is that related to anything? (and are any of the  ME3 endings Optimal?)

4)  I don't know about you but my story was totally crafted. My renegade Shep missed things involving crew members that died, and well there are some noticable diffirences in the Story of 3 if not the ending.

5) Well if you play in the 3 campaigns as said you will get multipe(3) endings so, while not as awesome as the quote sounds also not very useful for your claim of Bioware lying to you.

6) Most plot threads were concluded though some new weird questions were raised, before the ending a majority of the questions from previous games were wrapped up pretty well I thought. (including stuff I never thought about like how Cereberus made EDI)

7)  Mostly just the same as 6. Things are resolved, some of them you can choose how. Again not a lie.

8) Reaper motivation was explained (whether you liked it or not is not the issue.) The fan thing is totally BS marketing talk and well I'm sorry if you thought Bioware was gonna ask you about how the plot should go.

9) Yay the one somewhat damning quote especially since it's from Jan. I wonder when that interview took place exactly probably December, was that when the current ending was finalized? If so you finally have a concrete lie congrats!

10) Well a lot of folks think 2 of the endings count as Reaper wins. This sounds likes something cool that was cut. Note the date of August that is quite some time in Development world. To bad the Reapers win ending was dropped, but just like footage from a movie trailer not always being in the movie folks need to learn that early interviews will not always represent the final game.

11) True except for one 20 second clip. So its a lie for now. (you're up to what 2?)

12) All these things were answered (again whether you liked the answer is a matter of debate, and the prothean thing needs the DLC, but well that's neither here nor there.

13) Well I'd agree up until the final moments there are many layered choices then in the final moments you get 1 choice. So poorly worded but not really a lie (especially for folks who count the various permutations of the main endings as diffirent endings unto themselves.)


So we have 2 lies (1 big and a major sticking point, and 1 that is likely do to a glitched mission or 2.) Really only the quote I put up as 9 is damning, and even that I don't think would get the FTC or a court to even consider false advertising (It's being tried as i recall so, you could always try and file a class action against EA later if the FTC acts on it.)

[zsom]

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Technically speaking the FTC can intervene because of the scale of complaint. There is clear liability on the part of Bioware to fulfill its obligations in example the numerous citations that the game will use the gamer's data to affect the end product. This alone constitute gross violation of consumer protection. The fact that you were promised something in the development of a product only to find out that its not the actual product you specified.

Interestingly enough yesterday in the "Hold the lines" thread I was assured that the FTC complaint was the work of an overzealous guy who does not speak for the community, and actually the majority of people who are fighting for a better ending are against it. How fast things are changing...

[Blarty]

GeneralYin wrote...

Blarty wrote...
Interesting.... Have any of you considered the possibility that the entirety of ME3 is basically a sequence of endings, many of them based on, or factor in, your prior decisions in ME1 and ME2. For myself, the point of the Mass Effect series is showing that you have choices, the choices have consequences and they themselves have an aftermath, thus when you get to the end of ME3, the endings, whilst not explained, you as a player having experience of the consequences to prior decisions, take a very big decision that Bioware leaves the consequences of to a huge amount of interpretation, including any possibility of the Indoctrination theory. Personally, I think that reducing the entirety of the game, and ultimately, the series and your playtime to 5 mins at the end is incredibly short sighted.

You might disagree with my opinion, but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid than yours.

I don't follow. What do you mean?

Throughout ME3, core issues within the lore are brought to closure by Shepard, at a smaller focus, loose ends with squadmates in ME2 are tied up as well, acquaintances are dealt with as well, all well before the end sequence.... In all honesty I see the 'ending' less as an ending and more of a jumpstart - a point to branch off from again,I don't like it, but for me, it looks far more like a opportunity for the franchise going forward to reinvent itself without having to do the dreaded reboot, although I can see that people want full closure, to forget that you're getting closure to core themes and issues throughout the entire game is plain daft.

[TaHol]

dbal wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

dbal wrote...

Fans believe their choices didnt matter, but they did. Everyone seems to be so upset at the ending that they hardly notices the impact they had on the rest of the galaxy during the game.

From what i read from those quotes they all basically say the same thing....


Bioware took feedback from the previous games. Thats how they all phrase it basically. None of the fans are part of their writing team or production team so there is no way for anyone of us to truly help create the story. Everyone says they are entitled to something better. As a quote from Udina, "They are a bunch of self concerned jackasses!" The fans are entitled to purchase biowares game, not threaten them with an FTC lawsuit. >.>

Really? So if I killed the Rachni queen, they shouldn't have returned? 

So shepard died in me2, he/she shouldnt have returned?

the reapers have technology beyond even ceberus, could they not have created the new one in the same way? or even used a cloning approach?

If Shepard dies in mE2, he can't return. You can't import save where Shepard dies

[dbal]

TaHol wrote...

dbal wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

dbal wrote...

Fans believe their choices didnt matter, but they did. Everyone seems to be so upset at the ending that they hardly notices the impact they had on the rest of the galaxy during the game.

From what i read from those quotes they all basically say the same thing....


Bioware took feedback from the previous games. Thats how they all phrase it basically. None of the fans are part of their writing team or production team so there is no way for anyone of us to truly help create the story. Everyone says they are entitled to something better. As a quote from Udina, "They are a bunch of self concerned jackasses!" The fans are entitled to purchase biowares game, not threaten them with an FTC lawsuit. >.>

Really? So if I killed the Rachni queen, they shouldn't have returned? 

So shepard died in me2, he/she shouldnt have returned?

the reapers have technology beyond even ceberus, could they not have created the new one in the same way? or even used a cloning approach?

If Shepard dies in mE2, he can't return. You can't import save where Shepard dies

you know what i mean. Cerberus brought him back to life.......... >.>

[Pacificarus]

Nothing of what they say is true! Makes you sick does it?

Modifié par Pacificarus, 19 mars 2012 - 07:34 .

[SnakeSNMF]

"THE RACHNI HAVE A HUGE INFLUENCE"

ok 100 war assets

say hello to my 886 war assets of the geth of which i dont even see in the final battle at all

[GeneralYin]

Blarty wrote...

Throughout ME3, core issues within the lore are brought to closure by Shepard, at a smaller focus, loose ends with squadmates in ME2 are tied up as well, acquaintances are dealt with as well, all well before the end sequence.... In all honesty I see the 'ending' less as an ending and more of a jumpstart - a point to branch off from again,I don't like it, but for me, it looks far more like a opportunity for the franchise going forward to reinvent itself without having to do the dreaded reboot, although I can see that people want full closure, to forget that you're getting closure to core themes and issues throughout the entire game is plain daft.

Makes sense. But this is not how Bioware should have ended the trilogy: with an open ending. Which is why I am starting to dislike the notion of DLCs, because I am thinking that the ending is open for an easy DLC plug on. It can be seen as cutting off the ending to stretch it out for extra earnings.  Anyway, wrapping up the endings of other core and secondary plot threads before the endgame is how it should be. I see no problems with that. Nice perspective on things.

[GeneralYin]

zsom wrote...

Interestingly enough yesterday in the "Hold the lines" thread I was assured that the FTC complaint was the work of an overzealous guy who does not speak for the community, and actually the majority of people who are fighting for a better ending are against it. How fast things are changing...

This.

[hangmans tree]

A small one:
I belive they also said that any teammate can equip ANY weapon we choose. I may be playing another game then, coz my squaddies can only equip 2 kinds of weapons... I dont know if this is on the list...

[zsom]

hangmans tree wrote...

A small one:
I belive they also said that any teammate can equip ANY weapon we choose. I may be playing another game then, coz my squaddies can only equip 2 kinds of weapons... I dont know if this is on the list...

I think they said that you can use any weapon no matter which class you are playing, I don't remember the teammates being mentioned.

[mebtru]

So dbal do not own any ME game why he is defending them so much, or maybe he just pirated the game and he didn't really invest anything in the games, or maybe he is just trolling.

BaronFel124 is another example.

I don't know why people are against or in favor of a game they don't own.

[BarnabyTheWarrior]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

"THE RACHNI HAVE A HUGE INFLUENCE"

ok 100 war assets

say hello to my 886 war assets of the geth of which i dont even see in the final battle at all

lol. I was probably looking more foreward to how letting the Rachni queen live in ME1 would pan out more than anything. It was even hinted in ME2 they would make a return. Just emagine that big thresher maw was a Rachni.