222 réponses à ce sujet

[berguina]

MDT1 wrote...

If Bioware wants to make games only for the artistic value they have to them, they should stop trying to sell them.
At this point art becomes also a product, and the value of a product is determind by the customer.

Art is always sponsored by someone, tipically some big sponsor in the past, now more offen by a lot of people. Artists have depenses too, like any human in this world. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.

[LiquidLovin]

MTD1:
"If Bioware wants to make games only for the artistic value they have to them, they should stop trying to sell them.
At this point art becomes also a product, and the value of a product is determind by the customer."

A valid point, and well said! :-) To add to your arguement, it would be similar to one of Bach's descendants demanding that no one play any of his' or her's forefathers works because (insert reason here). As soon as the game became available for sale it became as much our property as it was theirs. There are detractors to this, of course; I'm simply trying to help your arguement as best I can.

[berguina]

BaKaNoOB wrote...

I think that people that like the endings are biow..... spyes..

lol. How many spyes has Bioware? 
Personally, I don't even live on the same continent.

[Altered Idol]

berguina wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...

Fans have invested alot of time and money into the series and should have the option for the story to play out how they want to.
....
 You like the ending, thats cool. But many of us don't and neither viewpoint should be discarded.

Actually, Bioware has invested really a lot of time, work and money to make this game. And their viewpoint shouldn't be discarded, independently of my opinion or your opinion of the end.

Try to do a game yourself and soon you will realize how much effort this implies. 

Moreover, ask them to rewrite their art is for me inacceptable. (and would be even if they had provided an ending I don't like).

And they've done it as its their job to do so. We fans have invested time and money into this because we choose to and because we trying care about the series. Not saying our views or their views are more important or should be discarded. Thats why I say the fans who like the end (that Bioware created) should not be discounted.

Where did I ever say this was not a laborious and time consuming task for the game developers. I can appreciate the hard work and effort they put in over years to create such an amazing franchise. Hell, the care they've shown is partly why the series has been as successful as it has been.

As for the art line, there has to be a balance between artistic intergrity and creating a product consumers want. This isn't like some artist who creates work to make a statement or whatever. This is about creating a product to sell. To maximise sales, they should appeal to the widest number of people. This ending does some damage to that appeal.

It just feels as though at the final hurdle before the finish line, they've clipped it and stumbled. They've not fallen yet but neither have they sailed over the hurdle to claim the deserved gold medal. I'm just waiting to see if they can.
 

[MDT1]

berguina wrote...

BaKaNoOB wrote...

I think that people that like the endings are biow..... spyes..

lol. How many spyes has Bioware? 
Personally, I don't even live on the same continent.

@berguina: don't feed the troll(=BaKaNoOB).

I wouldn't have bought it if they had advertised for an ending "thats there to confuse people and has no closure, ah yes, and better forget that ME1 existed if you ever played it".

No, instead they explicitly stated, that the end will explain things, bring closure, shows you that you choices mattered...

Modifié par MDT1, 19 mars 2012 - 03:39 .

[Corbinus]

MDT1 wrote...
Ah ok.
And to be clear, I wouldn't mind to discuss the ending only about what happens next.
What I mind is that I have to discuss and invent fanfic to make any sense of it!

Seriously, this is the most important moment ever, and Shepard is just to "tired" to question the guy who killed quadrillions of organics during its existence but buy everthing he says?

How do you explain ME1? Was the godkid to small to reach the console in the council chambers?

Huh, so true. I picked the Control Ending, and now I am in process of creating the story in which non-corporeal Shep is using Reapers knowledge to fix things. Which is pretty amazing thing to do:wizard:
ME 1.. *tries to remember ME 1 plot* Oh, well, lets just say the signal couldn't be sent by Citadel itself. It had to be activated\\authorized by anyone else, whether keepers, Saren or Nazara.
Why? Oh well... wait I know - Space Magic!

Modifié par Corbinus, 19 mars 2012 - 03:33 .

[Super.Sid]

berguina wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

If Bioware wants to make games only for the artistic value they have to them, they should stop trying to sell them.
At this point art becomes also a product, and the value of a product is determind by the customer.

Art is always sponsored by someone, tipically some big sponsor in the past, now more offen by a lot of people. Artists have depenses too, like any human in this world. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.

Had people known before hand many of them wouldn't have.Art is purchased once it is finished and displayed to the connoisseurs.No body had an idea of what the game would be like.

[IP.Assassine]

Getorex wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

It's great to say I don't think the relays killed everyone. And I don't think Bioware intended for them too. But the logic is undeniable.

Mass Effect Relays are essentially big containers of energy. The way it is destroyed is irrelevant. When the relays blows that energy is released in the form of radiation, radiation then spreads out over the solar system, hits stuff (like people) turns into heat energy and cooks us all alive.

Hurray for science!

And if the relay explosions aren't dangerous, why is Joker running from them? Clearly the blasts smash up the Normandy. So at the very least, that fleet of alien allies who came to rescue Earth, yeah, their ships blew up and they're all dead.

Indeed.  The explosions were so bad that they had to travel at FTL speed to BARELY escape.  How far, do you suppose, one must travel to fall upon a liveable planet ala the ending sequence?  All to run away from a merely bright flash and circuit breaker pop in the Relays?  

If you have to run to an entirely different system to escape with your lives (and just barely) then ANY system that contains a Mass Relay is DEAD.  ME2 "The Arrival" sets the stage.  You blow a Mass Relay, you kill the system.  The explosion is just that powerful and dangerous. Keep in mind too that they show a distant shot of the galaxy in its entirety and you watch as relay after relay blows in a bright flash.  You know what does that in real life?  What produces such a bright flash explosion?  Commonly a supernova.  Totally wastes the system that experiences it AND ANY NEARBY SYSTEMS TOO!  A supernova explosion is nasty ****.

In any case, even if they explain the inchoate ending in a manner that makes sense, you STILL lose replay value.  Why?  What you just saw was THE best outcome you could possibly get!  There are no shades of gray bracketed by a black ending and a white ending.  There is nothing but bleak, black ending.  Why replay THAT?  Why run a different version of Shepard through all that just to get the very same endpoint?  

If ME2 ALWAYS ended with the same 3 or 4 characters dying, why play it more than once?  

yeah the point with the overlight speed was really ... especial since i had some of  the guys you see there in my last mission on earth (so my fist thing i was thinking as i saw the end how the hell did they where able to get in the spaceship ... )

and i want to mention even if they would have survived the explosions the next thing is all ships are trapped in their systems, that mean all the species which are accidently in the same system like the sol system can not leave it, and what the end of someting like that is easy to image by image if you just put some random armies of the earth on a lone island which they cant leave ...

But the end wasnt that bad, it just got really bad as the white elevator lift you up to the final disicion stage ...

[Tonymac]

I think it all boils down to opinions. Some people liked the endings, others did not. What matters (I suppose) is ratios. Opinions matter for us the players, and for bioware..... well, its about dollars.

Bioware can make a lot of people happy with other endings - and that means having more dedicated fans - and that means more profits.

I hate to boil it all down to profits, but thats how the ending left me feeling - they wanted to get out of the franchise with as little work and originality as possible and run like hell is boiling over on the horizon.

Sadly, it is - the boiling horizon is us that have played in a really amazing game - all but for the last few minutes of it that ruined the whole deal.

[Traim Eisenblut]

berguina wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

If Bioware wants to make games only for the artistic value they have to them, they should stop trying to sell them.
At this point art becomes also a product, and the value of a product is determind by the customer.

Art is always sponsored by someone, tipically some big sponsor in the past, now more offen by a lot of people. Artists have depenses too, like any human in this world. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.

If you have already bought the product and other products in line of the same production series which are interconnected, and the quality of the product is dissatisfying, than it is totally legit to give a negative feedback on this matter.
Nothing else happens here. Only on a huge scale. Which means, that there are a lot of people dissatisified with the product. Now, you can change the product and make money of it, plus regaining these potential customers for future products of said production line, or you can play the "artistic value" card, thereby alienating these customers further and loose them for the future, which might be a bad businessdecision.

You know, I totally respect the freedom of art. I also totally respect the freedom of speech. And if their is an opionion about the games ending, and this opinion is neither insulting nor against any rules of civil behaviour, than it should be allowed to be said. Without anyone replying "THAN DONT BUY THERE PRODUCT!". You know, many who are complaining here won`t buy any more products from BioWare since this is fixed.
And it is totally legit to ask for a change of even a story arc in a fiction (which is art). It`s not like we are rampaging through canada and threatening BioWare to either change it or face serious consequences. 
We ask for it. And we say what happens when we don`t get it: we will spend our money elsewhere. I don`t see how this position would harm any ideal of art. It`s the artist freedom to stick to his idea. He will face the consequences by financial loss. Thats the businessaspect of art.

[Getorex]

berguina wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...

Fans have invested alot of time and money into the series and should have the option for the story to play out how they want to.
....
 You like the ending, thats cool. But many of us don't and neither viewpoint should be discarded.

Actually, Bioware has invested really a lot of time, work and money to make this game. And their viewpoint shouldn't be discarded, independently of my opinion or your opinion of the end.

Try to do a game yourself and soon you will realize how much effort this implies. 

Moreover, ask them to rewrite their art is for me inacceptable. (and would be even if they had provided an ending I don't like).

It's not art, it is a product.  They provide a service (software) to their customers.  They MUST make their customers happy or they go out of business.  They don't get to indulge themselves on this, they must indulge the customers.  The customers demand a correction to their flawed product (they are also getting their money back!).  They must comply or ultimately go out of business.

So, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was wrong to change his art of Sherlock Holmes in response to reader outcry?  How about Bioware themselves for correcting their "art" in "Deception"?  Wrong, yes?  They should stick to their guns and go down with the stink on their skin?  Naw.  Simply produce the product they promised to produce.  Make the customer happy and keep their customers in the future.

I've already bailed out and replaced my Mass Effect 3 with a totally different title - and exchange - to a non-Bioware title.  Bioware loses, another developer wins. 

[Major Maiming]

Not really on the grounds of money but on the grounds of emotional investment made over three titles and thousands of hours of gameplay... CAN I GET A REFUND????? Sorry... But unless I get some real manner of closure if not a happy ending then I feel like I have wasted a considerable period of my life.

While nothing will ever shake my love of the series, this has tested my faith. Still love ME3 at large but feel a little broken inside...

Major Maiming out...

[Reever]

To be honest...it´s their story. I also feel there should have been more, at least showing what happened to everybody left behind - I haven´t played all endings yet, but it does feel a bit underwhelming when you hear everybody saying there´s almost no distinction between them (although I don´t really want to know yet... ).

I wouldn´t have thought the story would go this way and I bet many would have liked Shepard to get out and spill some drinks on the Citadel (or wherever). And it´s partly Bioware´s fault for leading us to believe we were immortal. I mean, you could hardly fail the Suicide Mission....

At least the rest of the game was really cool. Didn´t feel as "big" as the other 2 games though and the linearity may have been a problem, but I still enjoyed pretty much everything (and loved the banter ).

Now I guess we´ll see how this whole issue evolves!

[berguina]

Altered Idol wrote...


And they've done it as its their job to do so. We fans have invested time and money into this because we choose to and because we trying care about the series.

I'm a fan too. And I've spent more than 500 hours playing ME1 and ME2. 

[Altered Idol]

berguina wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...


And they've done it as its their job to do so. We fans have invested time and money into this because we choose to and because we trying care about the series.

I'm a fan too. And I've spent more than 500 hours playing ME1 and ME2. 

And so have I, thats not the point I'm making. I'm not saying if you like the ending, you obviously haven't played the rest of the series. You like the ending? Good for you. I don't like it. Your opinion is not more valid and neither is mine.

[Corbinus]

delete.

Modifié par Corbinus, 19 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[Corbinus]

Oldbones2 wrote...
And if the relay explosions aren't dangerous, why is Joker running from them?

Because there is no way Joker can know if they are dangerous or not, and he doesnt want to risk it.
Yes, its that simple. And no, it doesn't make him a coward since its a reasonable action.

Modifié par Corbinus, 19 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[Getorex]

Corbinus wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...
And if the relay explosions aren't dangerous, why is Joker running from them?

Because there is no way Joker can know if they are dangerous or not, and he doesnt want to risk it.
Yes, its that simple.

it wrecked the Normandy.  They were dangerous.  Also, ME2 DETERMINES that exploding relays is thus deadly.  Any attempt to go otherwise is a massive retcon.  Kinda like having members of your crew who were with you in the final fight suddenly emerge all smiles on the planet out of the wrecked Normandy.  Smiling.  Happy.  Woohoo!  We finally got rid of that **** Shepard!  PARTY!

[Goroxx]

This is something I was explaining to my wife and she agreed - you CANNOT give the option for a romantic suplot that the player's choose and then NOT give the option for a happy ending. That is knowingly offering up something that many female gamers would like but then rip it to shreds at the end.

Way to go, BioWare, you just broke the hearts of the majority of your female fans.

[Getorex]

BlueDemonX wrote...

To be honest...it´s their story. I also feel there should have been more, at least showing what happened to everybody left behind - I haven´t played all endings yet, but it does feel a bit underwhelming when you hear everybody saying there´s almost no distinction between them (although I don´t really want to know yet... ).

I wouldn´t have thought the story would go this way and I bet many would have liked Shepard to get out and spill some drinks on the Citadel (or wherever). And it´s partly Bioware´s fault for leading us to believe we were immortal. I mean, you could hardly fail the Suicide Mission....

At least the rest of the game was really cool. Didn´t feel as "big" as the other 2 games though and the linearity may have been a problem, but I still enjoyed pretty much everything (and loved the banter ).

Now I guess we´ll see how this whole issue evolves!

There WAS lots of room for DLC...until the ending renders any and all DLC moot.  Fix the ending so it isn't 100% death and destruction and you have room for post-ending DLC too.  The ONLY other DLC that came post-ending was "The Arrival" bridge DLC between 2 and 3.  They COULD do multiple DLC before and after with the proper ending.  

By fixing the ending to include ENDINGS (plural), some of which are not so black, you could also make Galactic Readiness and EMS actually have value.  You max them out and you get the pony ending.  Right now, 50% readiness and a weak EMS gets you the same damn ending.  Pointless. 

[Getorex]

Goroxx wrote...

This is something I was explaining to my wife and she agreed - you CANNOT give the option for a romantic suplot that the player's choose and then NOT give the option for a happy ending. That is knowingly offering up something that many female gamers would like but then rip it to shreds at the end.

Way to go, BioWare, you just broke the hearts of the majority of your female fans.

This male fan wasn't too keen on it either.  I envision a future where Shepard and his romantic interest Ashley are the most respected and feared SPECTRE team in the galaxy.  With the current ending (singular) there is no more SPECTREs at all.  No council, no council space, no economy, no nothing.

[Sonicsnak3]

Wow some people are really harsh, hawat333 do you not understand that there are many ways for individuals to escape reality? There are worse ways to get emotionally attached to things but playing video games and loving the story is NOT something to be ashamed of. Think about what your saying, because Mass Effect is DESIGNED to engage you and to involve you in the games plot. It isn't simply some fan boy COD game where you can sit in a corner and spray bullets. Its a friggin massive RPG storytelling experience, and it has more depth than most video games to date. I understand everyone's let down over the end because it made the previous time spent on your shepards story irrelevant. Its hard to get over practically having a door close on your face at the end of the game and making it a pointless waste of effort.

Stop making harsh statements
and be Nice to People

[Getorex]

Just to repeat so it gets spread far and wide: Amazon is giving refunds for returned ME3 games. EA Games is offering to exchange ME3 for a different title of equal value. You can register your unhappiness here in the forums with polls and posts and/or you can refund your money or exchange the game for something else. THIS will hit Bioware with far more pressure than forum comments.

[Corbinus]

Getorex wrote...

it wrecked the Normandy.  They were dangerous.  Also, ME2 DETERMINES that exploding relays is thus deadly.  Any attempt to go otherwise is a massive retcon. 

Here we go again...

1) Hitting Mass Relay with a huge rock is not the same that hitting it with Crucible energy. IMHO obvious.
2) Joker wasn't in normal space. He was either inside Relay or in FTL. I am not sure which is correct.
I think if he was in normal space nothing would happen to him. Of course he couldn't know that.
BTW did we see that ball of energy destroying anything if our EMS is not low? I don't think so.

[Sonicsnak3]

Actually that's not the best thing to do, from a creative standpoint ( And a financial one ), BioWare have to correct the issue and please the community ( And they're attempting it right now ). If you want a better ending just wait it out and keep your voices heard on the forums/facebook/twitter. They're just taking in a lot of comments/constructive criticism and theories right now so they re working on the project. Don't lose complete faith.