114 réponses à ce sujet

[Nathair Nimheil]

most the time in battle if someone goes down you would move on to the next active enemy that is a real threat and not waste time stabbing the helpless guy on the ground to make sure hes really dead. there is plenty of time for that after the fight is over.

Sure enough, but some of those folks are dead before they hit the ground. For example, I'm pretty sure Cailin wasn't just hors de combat, he was squished. It would be nice if that happened to Alistair once in a while.

[TileToad]

I do agree that having party members that can't die (not even as an inconvenience like BG) takes away from the overall drama and suspense. For this reason I'm a huge fan of permanent deaths like in for example Jagged Alliance 2 (greatest game ever made, btw).

Unfortunately no-one can be told how awesome it is. You'll have to experience it for yourself.

[OgrynFlesh]

Hmm... maybe the injuries party members get should be permanent? Perhaps only permanent on hard or nightmare if you prefer.



Permanent injuries and perhaps five or ten injuries means death. Two "injured eyes" could result in blindness making the character unable to use ranged weapons. Ha, or if they use ranged weapons then they'll have a random chance on every RE-target (if you hear a darkspawn scream then you know you're doing something right) to start, uh, bowing? down an ally. Maybe something a little less stupid, but the permanent injuries remain.



Maybe stick a hospital in Denerim. Offers full(ish) heals but takes a few days, maybe that particular party member was crippled halfway through the Orzammar job and can't return to duty until after it's finished.



Oh, I'm on fire!... ah, that'd be interesting...

[F-C]

krullstar wrote...

F-C wrote...

well the way its currently set up is more realistic than just permanent death the first time your character hits 0 hit points. in battles in those days most people who went down wernt really dead, they were just too injured to continue fighting. if they had actually recieved medical treatment in time a lot of them would have survived.

thats why you have movies like 300 depicting them going across the field after the battle and killing off all the wounded soldiers laying on the ground, they arnt really dead yet. they are just laying there bleeding and wounded, unable to fight.

most the time in battle if someone goes down you would move on to the next active enemy that is a real threat and not waste time stabbing the helpless guy on the ground to make sure hes really dead. there is plenty of time for that after the fight is over.

Permanent death may be too harsh but there should be some consequence no?  I mean, you talk to a character in a certain way or give them the perfect gift, and based on that their opinion of you goes up or down.  Surely then, if your lack of leadership causes them to fall in battle almost die they would think less of you?

i dont disagree with that. i mean if you keep getting someone maimed over and over im sure they would eventually get pissed off about it, lol. sure through magic and treatment they can probably get better, but im sure they wouldnt enjoy it.

[Mnemnosyne]

The difference is that a wounded soldier rarely continues going into battle and being wounded to near the point of death under the same leader, over and over, in real life. There's a difference between someone getting wounded and then being removed from the battlefield for medical treatment and eventually returning, to 'that's the sixth time I've been disemboweled today alone'.

[Infiniteone2]

I think a lot of what Bioware did in this game was this:

"What is going to make the player just re-load to a previous save?"

Anything that would cause people to just re-load they basically took out.  If consequences are too steep people are just going to re-load everytime, you gotta find a good balance, or make it somehow fun/interesting for the consequences to happen to you.

Modifié par Infiniteone2, 29 novembre 2009 - 09:55 .

[Tennmuerti]

If you are all so very passionate about your idea you can use the following console command anytime a party member gets injuries:

runscript zz_addapproval X -Y

the link that explains how to use it is http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Console



Or you can go one step further if you really want this to be implemented and be immersive and you can create a mod using the tool set that does the relationship subtraction automatically upon unconsciousness.



I will continue to be happy with reduced amounts of reloads.

[RetrOldSchool]

I like the "down"-aspect (because of the inconsistence with true NPC deaths, since they can be brought back with ressurection spells etc but say Duncan cant), but I can too think it's a little too forgiving.



I think the best option would be more customization in the gameplay-options menu.



For instance, the ability to change how severe the "down"-effect would be, with a couple of different options, not tied to the gameplay difiiculty. For instance I would probably want to set my "severity" to the degree where the penalties for downed character would be:

a) Stat and ability penalties until he/she is treated back in camp. Injury kits remove 50% of the penalties in the field.

Approval penalty -5



Also I would like to be able to toggle autoheal and autoregenerate mana/stamina after battles on and off. This because you would have to be more careful in battles if you know that you will have to use a lot of potions in between fights to heal your party up.



Though I pretty much play like this as it is, I take it as a challenge to hardly use potions and to try not to get anyone downed. If I have to spam potions or if anyone is downed in a fight I usually reload and try a different strategy (traps, poisons etc).

[Shabob]

I don't understand why you feel like the developers have to implement some new system for 5 "hardcore" people when you're fully capable of lowering your approval all by yourself just like a big kid.



Also I'm getting sick of the whole difficulty debate. If you don't like the difficulty you can easily handicap yourself to make it harder.

[DaeFaron]

RetrOldSchool wrote...

I like the "down"-aspect (because of the inconsistence with true NPC deaths, since they can be brought back with ressurection spells etc but say Duncan cant), but I can too think it's a little too forgiving.

I think the best option would be more customization in the gameplay-options menu.

For instance, the ability to change how severe the "down"-effect would be, with a couple of different options, not tied to the gameplay difiiculty. For instance I would probably want to set my "severity" to the degree where the penalties for downed character would be:
a) Stat and ability penalties until he/she is treated back in camp. Injury kits remove 50% of the penalties in the field.
Approval penalty -5

Also I would like to be able to toggle autoheal and autoregenerate mana/stamina after battles on and off. This because you would have to be more careful in battles if you know that you will have to use a lot of potions in between fights to heal your party up.

Though I pretty much play like this as it is, I take it as a challenge to hardly use potions and to try not to get anyone downed. If I have to spam potions or if anyone is downed in a fight I usually reload and try a different strategy (traps, poisons etc).

To point it out, injuries actually affect your stats, I know one affects your attack rating, another attack speed.

Once time most of my group had around 3-4 injuries each (Before I knew about injury kits). One group always defeated my party because of the injuries, I went in there after using kits (because my brother explained them to me) and bam, we won easy. You want a 'challenge' never use injury kits. As for the getting back up and fighting, magical healing no?

[adam_nox]

If a character dies, the dvd should self-destruct.

[JKoopman]

Koyasha wrote...

I do hate that there is basically no consequence to having a party member go down in battle. Those injuries are so minor, and the injury kits so common, that they're irrelevant. And there's zero chance of them actually dying.

I kind of agree with the idea that a hit to approval would be a nice penalty whenever they go down. If your leadership led them into almost dying, then they probably think less of your leadership whenever they fall. If each time they fall in battle they take a -5 or so to approval, then death would have some significance.

And it would also definitely be nice if there was an optional difficulty setting where there was a chance of the main character or party members actually dying permanently. Baldur's Gate had this in that a 'chunked' character could never be resurrected, and the Fallout series, well, didn't have resurrection at all. If someone died, that was it for them, permanently.

It is sad that we've fallen so far that asking that there actually be consequences for failing is described as "rather extreme."

Some (most) people play games for enjoyment, relaxation, and stress relief, not to masochistically have their ass kicked by something that's ostensibly supposed to be entertainment just so they can brag about their "accomplishment" to their friends. All ultra-extreme and frustrating death penalties do is cause those people
to give up and go do other things with their time, which I suppose is fine if you want gaming (specifically PC gaming) to go the way of the comic book industry circa 1990 where the fanbase became so cloistered and introverted that it scared away most potential new fans and slowly collapsed in on itself. It's sad that I can see it happening already.

Asking for an "extreme" difficulty mode is one thing, but to bemoan how far gaming has "fallen" simply because being downed in combat doesn't result in perma-death or you don't have to repeat a boss encounter 10 times to survive it smacks of the same elitism that nearly killed my other childhood hobby. Rather, I look at it as a positive sign of how far gaming has come since the days of Donkey Kong and Prince of Persia that it no longer has to rely on contrived penalties and frustratingly difficult encounters to pad out gameplay.

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 novembre 2009 - 12:03 .

[dbmccart]

krullstar wrote...

Battling NPC on a bridge.  3 group members went down.  Hopeless situation, so I ran away.  NPC chased me.  Entered Lothering Village and the NPC gave up the chase.  My downed members came back to life, running towards my location on the far side of the 'area'.  As they did, they encountered villagers who wanted to battle me, game cut to video scene, next thing I know, my main character was warped to a new location.

I have had many awkward things happen when battles move away from downed members.  Personally, I think death should be relevant in this game.  If you prevail in a battle but lose a member, then they are gone.  If that sounds too harsh at least put some provision that after so many times down they leave you cause your leadership sucks.

Games without consequence, lose a considerable element of tension/excitement etc.  We already have save features that enable us to backtrack and do right where we went wrong but to have this kind of 'ability' in the game itself - is a minus not a plus.

Anyway, after hours and hours of game play, testing etc I think my comments are all done. 

I'd say the damn injuries are more then enough of a penalty, if your having a problem with it then you need to play on Nightmare. One thing your companions seem to be good at on Nightmare is dying, and your suggestion is just retarded. After your character has been downed a couple of times they are going to be worthless until their injuries are healed, and you can't get Cleansing Aura right off the bat so you have to either walk back to your camp or use an Injury pack. So the verdict is that you need to stop being a whiney ass and go play a harder difficulty then come back and tell us that you want you team mates to leave after they die a few times.

[GN-Lelldorianx]

I am going to ignore the last 2 pages and address a single point that has been bugging me: Why must things be a binary switch? 1 or 0, really? It shouldn't be "If it's set to nightmare++, they die, but in nightmare they don't." A more suitable solution would be a toggleable option called "Hardcore mode," which is applied to any game state.



I may want to relax and play through the game on normal, but still have the STORY consequences of a dead character - is that so wrong? It's all about story, and if dying unveils a separate path, then that path should be available to all difficulties through the enablement of a 'checkbox.'

[Chragen]

It has considerable consequence if you play like me.



If anyone die, no matter what it is a reload. That means even if the boss dies the moment they die it's a reload. And this is on nightmare mind you.



Not sure why but this is just how I've always played the RPGs I get in to. Guess it really started in Baldurs Gate seeing as death there had real consequence. E.i you had permanent companion deaths if things went totally wrong.

[DaeFaron]

Still, you have the option of not using injury kits and having your "KO" times affect your stats. However you'll get to the point of your parties injurys make them too weak to face a foe or mob of foes, or simply easier to KO again.

[Phaedra Sanguine]

I'm tired of these super-uber-hardcore people. Nobody will care if you blast through the game on ultra-mega-crazy-nightmare-mode with perma-death and nothing but a loincloth for armor.

The game is really fun right now. If it were developed like that (you know, perma-death. bla bla bla, I see this in EVERY rpg forum), it'd be an aggrivating pile of stupidity.

Modifié par Paxcorpus, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:32 .

[DaeFaron]

Perma-death would be an interesting concept, if per-say it was multiplayer.



Even then it'd get old quickly *Creates a new city-elf rogue and starts playing, big plans for the characters attitude and development, ooo look here comes a human-noble warrior that hates elves and kills me*



I always wondered how NWN rp servers handled perma-deaths or whatnot, true a res spell would become a valued thing with deaths and all. But if multiplayer RP, I've seen it usually ends up the high-lvl ****s simply target the new players just because they are too lazy to make their own gold.

[filkertom]

What gets me about this whole argument is that, back when I was running RuneQuest murfledy-murfle years ago, I ran very cinematic games. I told the players flat-out and up front that (a) their characters were the heroes of the epic tale, ( nobody was going to die unless they wanted to for the sake of drama or they did something so incredibly stupid I had no choice but to kill them, and © that didn't mean it was going to be easy for them.



Which is basically what we have with DAO.



I remember when The Secret of Monkey Island came out. Lucasarts was right up front with the notion that it was almost impossible for your character to get killed off, because they had spent so much time coming up with stuff that they wanted you to see that it would've been against their own interests to do so.



Again, like so many other things in these forums, it's a GM's choice. In this case, Bioware is our GM. This is what they want to do. Don't like it? Find (or create) a mod that does what you want, go find another game, or deal with it and play.



Sorry, but the incessant complaints are getting to me. Heck of a social site.