132 réponses à ce sujet

[RayVelocity]

This is an ideal way to slove the whole problem, but impossible, too---
I want Thane back, and Miranda.

[BenjaminR00]

SynheKatze wrote...

The game's full of lost opportunities.

Beginning with Cerberus being genuinely evil, the rachni, Thane, the geth conflict and ending, of course, with the lack of closure this game has.

Let's say... if you had a pro-Cerberus Shepard, why can't you convince TIM in the end to surrender his troops and give them to you? In exchange of diplomatic immunity and giving away his husk-controlling research. That'd be better than simple railroading against them.

Also, as it is, Cerberus overshadows the Reapers as enemies. If they're gonna make future DLCs, reaper forces should be the primary foes.

On the rachni, well, if you saved the Queen, then let's give you the choice to save the damn Queen again in ME3, but if you killed her, what sense does it make reviving her? Just so that you can curbstomp her again? Please, change that. Make it so that if you killed the original Queen, the reapers have created a breeding machine that operates automatically, thus not facing any kind of ethical compromise. That way you don't lose said side-mission, but it gives you the feeling that the choices you made didn't go to waste.

On the geth... well, the way it was handled was somewhat bittersweet for me. The arc was fine but its resolution is not what I expected from the geth. Legion once stated that they wanted to find THEIR OWN way to evolve and grow as a culture, grow as people, and gain acceptance, eventually, by themselves. Accepting the reaper code and spreading it throughout every geth is, to put it midly, "out of character". If you want to justify this, please give it some foreshadowing, for example, legion analyzing the reaper code and adapting certain parts of the reaper code PRIOR Rannoch's finale.

On the genophage... if you let Maelon live, why not ask for his help? It makes no sense that the STG couldn't find him and for him to, after you cure the genophage, nonchanantly send you a thankfull message while he's supposed to be on the run. And even better, he's hiding in Omega, running a clinic, right under everyone's noses, he could teach TIM a lesson or two.

I'd like for Maelon to help developing the cure he designed, and to have significance in the finale. Hell, you could even let him go instead of Mordin, or they could go together to redeem themselves. Whatever.

The Coup... give it some foreshadowing. Something simple, similar to the LotSB videos on ME2 will help, and make it so unravels throughout the story, not just popping in your face.

On Thane... give the guy some significance, more than just dying, make it so that if he died in the suicide mission, no one's there at the time to save the Salarian Councillor. That'd give the guy some importance.

Perhaps, something like this:

IF Thane is loyal -> He saves the salarian councillor and sacrifices himself in the process.
IF Thane is dead-> Salarian Councillor dies.
IF Thane is alive but unloyal -> He tries to help, but doesn't arrive in time, thus gaining a little time to live.
IF Thane is alive, loyal, and romanced -> Thane lives.

I don't know what I'd do with Jacob, maybe some Jacobmancer could provide insight on his character, as I've never romanced him.

Additionally, you Feros and Noveria should be full-fledged side missions, showing consequences of what we did in the first game.

Damn straight. Also if you killed the Rachni Queen in ME1 there shouldn't be ANY ANY ANY Rachni-Reapers at all. That should have been the twist, only Rachni-Reapers if you saved the Queen. 

The point is they didn't actually want to put the effort into making this game properly and consistent with their own context or what they promised.

You just don't make this game for new players only which is what they did. Then on top of that, plop on a turd of an ending when you haven't done the writing and don't have the skill to pull it off. I am fine with the indoctrination theory but they should have executed it better if that's what they intended. You can have doubt in the players mind, but not confusion - that's just lazy writing.

[BenjaminR00]

Plus you should have gone to Omega to help Aria take it back with the Mercs and if you gave TIM the collector base you should have had to fight those weird reaper-aliens from that silly Mass Effect comic book. If you didn't give him the collector base, you should just have fought cerberus troops.

These things are so blatant and this should have been a skyrim-sized game in the end someone took the money agreed to the delivery deadline and that was that.

I think for sure there are people in BioWare who intended for ME3 to be what we are all talking about and are really angry about how ME3 turned out. Frankly if I was working there I would have fought them on it and been fired I am sure! I don't care so much for S/S romances and romancing everyone only because it is not what is the core game - the core game was supposed to be a TPS that shifted around a dynamic storyline/story environment that changes based on your choices. That is the most important thing. That is what ME3 was supposed to be and could have been, easily. And they blew it while simultaneously giving into banal fan requests. That's all I'm sayin'.

[rwilli80]

Mass Effect 1 was labeled as choices have consequences too and that wasn't true. Hell the only commercial for the game I even remember had the Normandy heading towards a planet calling for help only to have Shep decide against it, it was billed as if you couldn't save everyone, but you could. You did get to complete every mission in the game there was no restriction. The second was the same way, you had unlimited time to do all the missions with no sense or urgency until the Collectors took your crew. So coming into the third game I, like most, knew the major choices had already been made for me by the writers. This sounds like you set the expectation bar really high for this game, so high in fact no matter what it was going to fail, that's a you problem, period.

Now the ending, that's a totally different set of problems.

[BenjaminR00]

people are right this is nutty but at the same time I am in the Dave from Canada boat, I would just happily pay for another whole game. It wouldn't cost anywhere near as much to add onto what they have already done and I would still pay full price and buy a true Mass Effect 3.

However I don't think the issue is fan bleating, although it is expressed that way because this is BSN after all, I think bottom line this is actually because they screwed the pooch as they say. Never give into what the masses tell you how you should change your creation, I agree, but we are not talking about Michelangelo here we are talking about a game which is a series and it's so obvious how to change what is already there and make the damn thing work. I mean, in a prior era if this was a film the director would have come out and said 'the studio took the film from me, I repudiate it also' but you can't do this in this corporate environment for many reasons, especially if you don't want to be sued and you even want to work in this industry again. So actually the fans are doing the "bleating" for the most part on behalf of 'Mass Effect' itself as an entity, not just for their own selfish reasons.

Although yes this is nutty and a very first world problem. But somehow it is indicative of something and some larger anxiety which we are (probably wrongly) directing at this issue. But then again people wrongly direct their anxieties at all sorts of things, don't they?

[BenjaminR00]

rwilli80 wrote...

Mass Effect 1 was labeled as choices have consequences too and that wasn't true. Hell the only commercial for the game I even remember had the Normandy heading towards a planet calling for help only to have Shep decide against it, it was billed as if you couldn't save everyone, but you could. You did get to complete every mission in the game there was no restriction. The second was the same way, you had unlimited time to do all the missions with no sense or urgency until the Collectors took your crew. So coming into the third game I, like most, knew the major choices had already been made for me by the writers. This sounds like you set the expectation bar really high for this game, so high in fact no matter what it was going to fail, that's a you problem, period.

Now the ending, that's a totally different set of problems.

Well that is a perfectly reasonable analysis, you are right. It actually doesn't do the things it is supposed to do and damn right that the action part that it does do is much better and much more fun. So yes, I still rate the game 92/100 in those terms but y'know I ackowledge this is nutty but as far as the plot it's like Godfather 3 man they stuffed it up and we are 'fans' after all. Fat, balding, basement-dwelling, troll-like fans.

I accept the label because it is accurate but it doesn't change the fact we are correct, even if we are out of touch with reality.

[BenjaminR00]

simfamSP wrote...

Dave your usually a reasonable person, but why the *entire* story line? From the general reaction (and my own) the game was great until the last five minuets. Changing the endings is one thing, but the whole game is another. Unless I've minunderstood you.

It is because we all need to get lives. Non-troll-like basement dwelling lives. Until then, we fight for games to fulfill their promises. 

SIGH. It's true.

[Well]

I don't see them redoing the whole thing.Yes there were plot holes thru the game and there are some valid post by folks.That's the reason I consider it a ok game but not great.Not just because of the ending.I do want to see that change and be as they said.There are plenty of links where they made comments and they should be held accountable.If people shorted them on the payment for the game they wouldn't be to happy.

[Well]

BenjaminR00 wrote...

rwilli80 wrote...

Mass Effect 1 was labeled as choices have consequences too and that wasn't true. Hell the only commercial for the game I even remember had the Normandy heading towards a planet calling for help only to have Shep decide against it, it was billed as if you couldn't save everyone, but you could. You did get to complete every mission in the game there was no restriction. The second was the same way, you had unlimited time to do all the missions with no sense or urgency until the Collectors took your crew. So coming into the third game I, like most, knew the major choices had already been made for me by the writers. This sounds like you set the expectation bar really high for this game, so high in fact no matter what it was going to fail, that's a you problem, period.

Now the ending, that's a totally different set of problems.

Well that is a perfectly reasonable analysis, you are right. It actually doesn't do the things it is supposed to do and damn right that the action part that it does do is much better and much more fun. So yes, I still rate the game 92/100 in those terms but y'know I ackowledge this is nutty but as far as the plot it's like Godfather 3 man they stuffed it up and we are 'fans' after all. Fat, balding, basement-dwelling, troll-like fans.

I accept the label because it is accurate but it doesn't change the fact we are correct, even if we are out of touch with reality.

I feel your post is insulting.I am not bald.<_<

[nikola8]

So the Illusive Man should come back, fight Shepard to the death, and at near the point of death Shepard steps back in time to guide his past self to prevent the same choices (hey it worked in last year's Mortal Kombat roboot).

In all seriousness, on the topic of rewriting, I'm starting to believe that the ending will not get patched. I'm now in my second ME3 playthrough and I am noticing a lot of foreshadowing for the current ending embedded throughout the game (stuff that I didn't notice on my first playthrough). If they were to patch the ending, they would have to remove some stuff earlier in the game as well (which would essentially yield a rewrite of the game).

[Dridengx]

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'd gladly pay 59.99 or more for a completely remade storyline

How about 1 - 20 million since it sounds like you want to comission the game. So go ahead and send the money to EA then maybe you will get your new storyline but it shouldn't be called Mass Effect

Modifié par Dridengx, 20 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[BenjaminR00]

Well wrote...
I feel your post is insulting.I am not bald.<_<

I was being self-depricating about myself. I am balding.

[BenjaminR00]

Dridengx wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'd gladly pay 59.99 or more for a completely remade storyline

How about 1 - 20 million since it sounds like you want to comission the game. So go ahead and send the money to EA then maybe you will get your new storyline but it shouldn't be called Mass Effect

It is true it would be about 20 mil to do an enhanced edition.

[Well]

BenjaminR00 wrote...

Well wrote...
I feel your post is insulting.I am not bald.<_<

I was being self-depricating about myself. I am balding.

I was just kidding anyways.Still have my hair after a half century plus.Wish I could say the same for my memory.

[Dave of Canada]

Dridengx wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'd gladly pay 59.99 or more for a completely remade storyline

How about 1 - 20 million since it sounds like you want to comission the game. So go ahead and send the money to EA then maybe you will get your new storyline but it shouldn't be called Mass Effect

How will Thane, Jacob and other characters get proper justice if it isn't Mass Effect? We demand that Bioware submit to the promises held for years, not bow before their overlords and create this atrocitiy that has been released on store shelves.

We must hold the line!

[Super.Sid]

It is unreasonable to ask for a remake of the entire storyline. Let us face it, the story is great till the last 10 minutes.I know people are complaining because ME2 characters didn't get major roles and many characters got killed.
The main issue is to fix the endings

[bboynexus]

Contrary to many of the claims spilled from the OP's mouth in this thread, Mass Effect 3's narrative is solid overall, with few, and mostly negligble, issues.

[daftPirate]

Wow, a call to remake three game and years of development with a hold the line tag under it? Seems like people are just kinda throwing it around these days.

[IST]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Like most people's reactions to the ending, I feel the entire script has done nothing but disappoint. It has left the Mass Effect fan in me from the first two games with a sense of unfulfillment as the entire game disregards my choices to force me into a single plothole filled narrative which the writers created for themselves, rather than for the player and the trilogy.

I have great difficulty in replaying Mass Effect 1 and 2 knowing that Mass Effect 3's entire experience lies waiting, what's the point of playing the two original games if that's what I'm forced to look foward to? The game promised choices would have impact and the like, yet all that changes is a line of dialogue and an edited asset value which does absolutely nothing. That's probably more offensive than a different colour.

I'd gladly pay 59.99 or more for a completely remade storyline, one which involves the promises which the series seeked to achieve. It's hurtful to have experience the entire game only to reach the end and see the entire narrative crash and burn like the child from the intro.

My pro-Human Cerberus Operative Shepard demands satisfaction, just like all other Shepards who've been removed in order to create the writer's Shepard in ME3.

Hold the line.

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj7-nl8QbGk9Ve_wc9XeBUP_3dnOJzKinUaoBOghOUpYjYVlZoBp6EOnBVnQ 
Keep dreaming kid...

I gotta agree with this guy ^^^

Let's be realistic here, and focus on the lush DLC on the way.

[Sebbe1337o]

They wrote the whole game so that cerberus would be bad --> you can't possibly side with them in ME3. I understand why this is annoying for those who sided with them in ME2, but think about this: If BW would make it possible to side with them, the game would have to have 2 very different story arcs, and they would have to work twice as much on a game that would still be 30 hours long --> not worth it imo. So, well, there you have it. I like what they did with the story, up until the ending.

[bboynexus]

Yup, constraints within technologies, budgets and deadlines.

People really must be conscious of that.

[kbct]

I think the OP is fooling everyone. I think he is mocking people that want to change the ending and going to extremes by saying it's reasonable to change the entire game.

DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!!!

[fainmaca]

Okay, to start with: Big wall of text incoming!

While I agree that the narrative as a whole didn't measure up to what the franchise deserved, I think rewriting the whole game is just one demand too far at this point in time. The staff have worked hard to churn out this game, and it must be kind of wearying to see it blasted so soon out of the gate. They don't deserve to have to sit down and do it all over again just 2 weeks after release. Maybe further down the line a remake to rejuvenate the franchise could be done. However, this doesn't mean that something shouldn't be done about the endings now. That really was the killer for the game, and it needs to be rectified. Thing is, creating a wildly divergent series of endings shouldn't be hard, if you are willing to put the time and thought into it. As an example, I point to my fic, where I have a total of 24 widely varying endings I could end up writing, depending on Reader votes. I have an explanation of the ending mechanic used in my fic in this post here:

fainmaca wrote...

This endings fiasco has had me thinking a lot about how I plan to end my story, particularly the wide variety I'm offering to you, my readers. Because of this, I have decided to post a little something here to allow you a glimpse at the inner mechanics of my story.

*First of all, this will contain MODERATE TO HEAVY SPOILERS for my fic. You have been warned.*

The first and foremost facet that I felt (and still, to a degree, feel) was central to the Mass Effect franchise was the idea of choice and consequence, cause and effect, morals and responsibility. To that end, my story needed to have a variety of endings that gave very clear indications of consequence. Not just a different feeling to the ending, a different message or a different set of choices, but an actual, huge variance between the endings an individual Shepard would get. To this end, I came up with a simple, although work-intensive, solution: 6 Different locations for the final confrontation, dependent on five important choices. Now, obviously I won't reveal the locations just yet, but I'll refer to them as locations 1 through 6.

Now, these endings, and which one you get is decided by five choices: Whether you Spare or Kill The Illusive Man in Chapter 35: The Heart Of Darkness, Whether you choose to Save or Destroy Omega in Chapter 23: The Cartels Gather, Whether you choose to Spare or Destroy Arcturus Station in Chapter 36: The Enemy Advances, Whether you choose to Preserve or Destroy the Collector Base (Mass Effect 2, obviously), and whether you choose to Save the Council or Not (Mass Effect 1).

These endings are sequentially worse for Shepard and the defending Galaxy, each representative of a lost advantage until you finally reach the last and most desperate situation. The endings flow like this:

Ending A: Location 1 (TIM Choice 1)

Ending B: Location 2 (TIM Choice 2, Omega Choice 1)

Ending C: Location 3 (TIM Choice 2, Omega Choice 2, Arcturus Choice 1)

Ending D: Location 4 (TIM Choice 2, Omega Choice 2, Arcturus Choice 2, Council Choice 1)

Ending E: Location 5 (TIM Choice 2, Omega Choice 2, Arcturus Choice 2, Council Choice 2, Collector Base Choice 1)

Ending F: Location 6 (TIM Choice 2, Omega Choice 2, Arcturus Choice 2, Council Choice 2, Collector Base Choice 2)

As you can see, it is possible to get the best possible advantage for the end battle through just one choice, but that choice may or may not be made depending on individual preferences. One thing I should point out about these choices is that choosing the best path does not mean all of the choices made are paragon/renegade. They are a mix of choices of varying morality, meaning you have to choose what feels right to you and then see where that takes you. This is the second point I feel is important to Mass Effect: Paragon does not equal the right choice. Morals don't necessarily mean assured victory.

Moving on, I'd now like to show you how I add further variance to these six distinct endings. I do this through the Mass Effect Organisations.

Throughout the narrative of the games, Shepard forms relationships with not only key individuals in the Galaxy, but also with the peoples, networks and organisations spread throughout galactic society. I've isolated a list of 19 of the key players in these organisations, incorporating them into the mechanics of the story. These organisations are:
1. The Systems Alliance
2. The Terminus Cartels
3. The Krogan Empire
4. The Turian Hierarchy
5. The Asari Republics
6. The Salarian Union
7. The Batarian Hegemony
8. The Quarian Migrant Fleet
9. The Geth Collective
10. The Rachni Swarm
11. The Vol Protectorate
12. The Hanar Illuminated Primacy
13. The Drell Remnant
14. The Elcor
15. ***SPOILERS***
16. Cerberus
17.The Shadow Broker Network
18. The Citadel Council
19. ***SPOILERS***

These organisations have a number of factors tied to them that decide net military strength as well as the future of the individual group. I track these factors by assigning points to them finally deciding the organisation's strength out of it's total potential. For example, The Krogan Empire is tracked like this:

The Krogan Empire
    
Clan Urdnot
Wrex 
     Alive: 2
     Dead: 0
Grunt
     Alive: 2
     Dead: 0
Krogan Empire
     Formed: 0
     Not: -10

Genophage
Genophage Cure
     Given to Krogan: 2
     Kept away: 0
Mordin
     Alive: 2
     Dead: 0
Maelon’s research
     Kept: 0
     Destroyed: 2


Net strength: ten out of a possible ten. The Krogan Empire will donate its full potential to the War Effort. This means that, aside from the assets it gives to the War Effort, the Krogan Empire will also achieve the best possible ending available to it, depending on Shepard's level of success in the final battle.

In addition, the individual organisations add to the Galaxy's net War potential. To continue the Example above, the Krogan Empire presents 8% of the Galaxy's potential. Given the fact that 10 out of ten points were achieved, that means the full 8% is added to Shepard's War assets. If Shepard failed to secure the full potential of the Krogan, then the combat potential is reduced to scale (i.e. 5 points would net 4%). In addition, Technology upgrades represent 10% of the Galaxy's War potential, while also saving the lives of individual crew members in the ending sequence.

These little packets of War potential are added together to give me the total figure for Shepard's chances in the endgame. In total, there is 120% War potential available, although its impossible to get all of it as some choices will negate certain assets in favour of others, meaning the total attainable points are just over 100%. Once all of the points are decided, I add them together to decide Shepard's net readiness. This affects the outcome of the end battle, affected by the location (or desperation) of the endgame. The end potential gives you one of four possible endings, scaling with location as follows:

Ending Location 1:
30 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
30- 50: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle
50- 70: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
70+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.

Ending Location 2:
35 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
35- 55: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle
55- 75: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
75+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.

Ending Location 3:
40 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
40- 60: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle
60- 80: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
80+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.


Ending Location 4:
45 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
45- 65: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle
65- 85: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
85+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.


Ending Location 5:
50 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
50- 70: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle.
70- 90: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
90+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.


Ending Location 6:
55 or less: Total failure. Reaper victory. Cycle continues.
55- 75: Victory with crippling losses. Shepard and Normandy lost in final battle
75- 95: Victory with acceptable losses. Normandy survives, Shepard dies.
95+: Total victory. Shepard + Co survive final battle.

As you can see, once Shepard reaches the endgame, he already faces a situation where he needs to be absolutely ready. If he's made the wrong choices and finds himself at Location F, he faces the amost impossible task of convincing a nearly perfect army to fight at your back.

In relation to this, the organisations' futures are affected by the ending Shepard secures combined with their individual scores. For example, if Shepard gets the best result possible (Location 1, 70+% War potential), then the Krogan Empire, with full war assets earned, gets the absolute best outcome, whatever that may be, but if Shepard onlt secures a mediocre outcome (Say Location 1, 30-50%), then the Krogan get a mediocre future, possibly with the loss of key named characters. Of course, if the Total Reaper Victory ending is achieved, then all races are wiped out, no matter what.

So, in actual fact, there are 24 different endings that can be achieved in this fic (6 ending battles x 4 outcomes). However, due to the fact that any combination of the 23 squadmates could be lost, either due to technologies not gained or through poor specialist choices in the endgame, and the 19 organisations have 4 unique possible futures, you could actually claim (if you use Bioware's logic) that there are thousands of possible different endings to the fic. So far, the reader votes haven't even secured anything beyond Total Reaper Victory, so there's a lot of work to be done.

Anyway, that's a little insight into how my fic is planned and structured. I'd love to hear any thoughts/comments. as you can see, I have a fair amount of work ahead of me, so I'd better get to it.

Fainmaca Out.

TL: DR- Many points are taken into consideration to craft a huge variety of endings, giving meaning to choices throughout the trilogy. While this would require a considerable amount of work, the potential payoff you could get in the way of fans being satisfied with THEIR Shepard getting his/her ending should easily outweigh the costs, especially if you find that the story is bulky enough to need to be broken into two segments, each sold separately.

Fainmaca Out.

Modifié par fainmaca, 20 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Mykel54]

Even if you wanted a different storyline and were willing to pay a lot for it, bioware is not going to remake the game. The most we can expect is dlc content to flesh out the weak parts of the current game, which the endings is only the most flagrant, but not the only one. Sure, it would have been nice to be able to side with cerberus, but as they are presented in ME3 they are pretty much enemies even for a pro-human shepard, the "not crazy" cerberus guys are represented by the ex-cerberus war assets. The existing cerberus of ME3 is already nuts and insane, they were only interesting when they were at the grey morality level of ME2.

What bioware could do is add one option where TIM can be reasoned with (maybe requires giving him the collector base) and he helps you in the final battle, before dying or committing suicide (he was obviously indoctrinated in ME3). Then in the epilogue shepard could go and recreate cerberus again (maybe with miranda) in order to rebuild humanity´s place in the galaxy, this time avoiding the pitfalls of TIM but following a similar renegade mindset. I think it would be a nice touch and is the closest thing you could get to siding with cerberus without rewriting the entire game.