571 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaidster]

swn32 wrote...

Making a DLC that adds a few ending cutscenes that bring the story to a proper closure require countless months?

You are assuming that those willing to pay would pay for a bad quality solution. I'm pretty sure a few cutscenes done in a week won't entice anyone to buy it. If they are going to charge for you can be sure everyone will demand a quality product. After this whole fiasco there's no way anyone would preorder an ending DLC. Paid content =/= quality content, but money gives you leverage. The same leverage we are using right now to correct ME3. That's why I'm not taking money off the table.

[ArcanistLibram]

I'll be honest, I think releasing paid DLC would be a terrible business practice, but I would buy it anyway just to forget about the current godawful endings.

[Dav3VsTh3World]

granyte wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Demanding DLC be free is just pathetic, developers spend months on making games for fans and DLC is no exception, If you ask them in their face to make free DLC, you're pretty much asking them to work countless months for free, to which they would kick you out of their office.

no a 5 minute dlc that fix the dialog to make sure that the many many plot holes we found are removed is not months of work it's a most 1 week

I think you seriously underestimate just how much time, work and money goes into a large scale game development, a 5 minute DLC sounds cheap and easy, but when you take into consideration the man hours needed to write the script, recode the game, proofread and double check the script so it doesn't create other plot holes, creat new animation cycles for the character models, fly in the voice actors into the studio, test the product for bugs, even if that was for 5 minutes of content it wouldn't be worth it being free.

Tregon wrote...

We can offer on other side of table option to clean up a desk for large portion of Bioware staff while useful ones are relocated under different EA brand, and EA execs can be told that odds of salvaging ME or DA brands are neglible and possible expected profits shall not appear. Thus forcing EA to try to come up with new brand to make lots of money.

Game series are THE most profitable way of making games. First game of series rarely makes huge profit, but following ones bring in ever increasing revenue. Thus, death of two reasonably popular brands forces EA to start risky search of new ones while losing practically guaranteed income of those two.

If you really wanna offer yourself to be Bioware's maids for free be my guest, but don't be surprised if they don't take up your offer

[zsom]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

zsom wrote...

Tregon wrote...

And when they would release Dragon Age 3, it's ending would be made total crap on purpose and they would be smiling with palm extended while holding proper ending in other hand.

Of course, this would not in any way reduce price of DA3 box, but would be essentially forced extra purchase to have game worth anything.

Think before you are starting to make concessions before they have done any.

Don't buy it then. If you feel a game or a DLC is overpriced, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Don't cry on the forums after you gave them your money demanding free stuff, don't buy it to begin with.

Do you understand what forums are for? They're for giving feedback. He's giving feedback. You are just running your mouth.

Did you even read his post? He is talking about DA3. How can he give feedback on that?

[jkflipflopDAO]

Lugaidster wrote...

swn32 wrote...

Making a DLC that adds a few ending cutscenes that bring the story to a proper closure require countless months?

You are assuming that those willing to pay would pay for a bad quality solution. I'm pretty sure a few cutscenes done in a week won't entice anyone to buy it. If they are going to charge for you can be sure everyone will demand a quality product. After this whole fiasco there's no way anyone would preorder an ending DLC. Paid content =/= quality content, but money gives you leverage. The same leverage we are using right now to correct ME3. That's why I'm not taking money off the table.

It took them 18 months to make the entire game. How long do you really think it will take to redo the ending? Don't you think they already have a content pipeline setup to keep pumping us for DLC? OF COURSE they do! This is EAware's flagship premere franchise. They're setup to milk us from here until doomsday. 

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 19 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[HaesoME3]

Lugaidster wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hexoskin wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hexoskin wrote...

All you dumbasses [...] that black guy to come bumfuk you in the shower again.

Get your heads out of your asses...

Whoa! That right there convinced me to agree with you...


NOT! If you can't even argue without insulting you're not worth the effort. That response made as much sense as those who call as entitled brats. 

And if you're willing to buy a fixed ending DLC you should be slapped. kthx.

Psst... You're just giving the media further evidence of how childish some of us are (IE you). Keep insulting behind that keyboard of yours, it goes a long way on NOT helping us fulfill our goal. 

To be fair the majority of your posting has been little more than devil's advocate and "polite" goading.

I'm sorry if you see it that way, but I didn't blatantly attack anyone with them.

Let me put it this way, your posts in this thread make me think: 

"I agree with you for the most part, but I don't like the your tone."

After a certain point it's just tiresome. I don't think you're a bad person, I don't think you need to feel the same way I do about things, but I don't feel like you've really contributed anything positive here.

I'd say the same for people swearing up and down the boards, but I don't feel the need to admonish people. If I went around trying to police the retake movement or any other group of people I'd be at my wits end in a matter of days.



Lets just break one post down as an example.

Lugaidster wrote...


There's no objective way to
demonstrate this claim. Given that, it is unreasonable to demand
something for free when there's no proof of the harm. Besides, I'd
rather have a quality ending than a free one, and no, you can't have
both because there's no incentive for quality without the money. I'm not
saying you have to accept it, but there's no reason to demand that
everyone should refuse it.

• "There's no objective way to demonstrate this claim."

We
both know the more than reasonable majority has no intent of proving
this in a court of law, only in that of public opinion. It's nitpicky
and annoyed me.

• "Given that, it is unreasonable to demand something for free when there's no proof of the harm."

More nitpicking - you use demand as 'you MUST do this', most of those
that use it are using it in a plainly different context as in "If you do
not do this, X will happen" where X usually results in boycotting, bad
word of mouth etc. We know we can't force them to do anything, we can
only attempt to make it more costly for them to not do what we request
than to just do it. This feels very devils advocate and unhelpful to me.

• "Besides, I'd rather have a quality ending than a free one, and no, you
  can't have both because there's no incentive for quality without the
  money."

This is a logical fallacy of the highest order - there
is money at stake. It's simply "Future money." It is the value of brand
loyalty, of word of mouth, of future sales. If they feel doing right by
their fans is a net gain, they will do it. If enough people refuse to
purchase from them again, they will see it as economically viable. We
both know they can afford to lose a small bit of money from their
massive profits to fix this in the eyes of their fans, we're big enough
to agree on this point at least, right? It's just whether or not it's a long term profit to do it.

• "I'm not saying you have to accept it, but there's no reason to demand that everyone should refuse it."

This is the only point you've made here I agree with and only partially.
Anyone that says "I'll buy the DLC if it fixes the ending" weakens
everyone else's bargaining position, they've a right to be upset with
you. Lets not even get into the bad precedent
for the rest of the industry - in this one case alone, it weakens us. At
the very least you could try and bridge common ground along the lines
of not trusting future releases from EA. Many have done something like
this, almost none of those people recieve the negative comments you do, and certainly not with the same vitriol.

It might be unfair to compare you to a beggar. But it's not all that far fetched to consider you part of the problem.


They get something in return for providing an ending for free - good will and word of mouth. A win in the court of public opinion. Instead of the opposite, by devaluing those things, by dismissing those things, I find you to be annoying, and I can see why other posters might find cause to attack you.

You may or may not deserve some things said towards you, but I can certainly see why it happened, and I don't understand what your goal here is other than to find things to be offended by. It's like you're poking the angry bear just to see what it does when you poke it. Of course it's going to attack you.

Modifié par HaesoME3, 19 mars 2012 - 12:40 .

[evisneffo]

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...

given the resources that would go into fixing the ending. it is unreasonable to expect them to fix it and ask nothing in return

This.

Of course I wouldn't be happy paying more for something that should have been there in the first place, but these are large scale changes we're talking about.

By demanding that this be done for free, A) you could very well be punishing people who had nothing to do with the ending, and you won't have the right to expect any sort of minimum standard from the content.

[TheRealMithril]

Tregon wrote...

Lancane wrote...

Those who don't want to pay haven't really thought this through, because there is a chance that if they made a DLC ending that was free, they'd have to budget it to where it wasn't a major loss. That means that the quality could sorely lack - think about it before people start getting upset. From their perspective they could do a DLC that gave maybe three more choices and an epilogue similar to Origins and that would be it and it would be more then enough to appease a good portion of the movement...the movement would be no more. Even those among us unhappy with that wouldn't be enough of a future threat to worry them any longer. If we offered to purchase a DLC ending they could consider truly extending or drawing it out and giving more answers.

And when they would release Dragon Age 3, it's ending would be made total crap on purpose and they would be smiling with palm extended while holding proper ending in other hand.

Of course, this would not in any way reduce price of DA3 box, but would be essentially forced extra purchase to have game worth anything.

Think before you are starting to make concessions before they have done any.

You make it sound like BioWare is like Ryanair. ..

[Sir Fluffykins]

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

[jkflipflopDAO]

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

It seems this younger generation is conditioned to think that demanding value for your money is akin to "a false sense of entitlement". They actually look at it as a bad thing. Unless you just lay down and take it in the pooper like a good little sheep, you're a troublemaker.

[evisneffo]

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

It would take an extra level of colossal stupidity to try the same thing twice, or to make a paid DLC in this situation without doing careful research as to what would work best given the current level of damage.

Valid point though, and I imagine a fair few people will wait until someone else has bought and played it first.

Modifié par evisneffo, 19 mars 2012 - 12:44 .

[HaesoME3]

evisneffo wrote...

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...

given the resources that would go into fixing the ending. it is unreasonable to expect them to fix it and ask nothing in return

This.

Of course I wouldn't be happy paying more for something that should have been there in the first place, but these are large scale changes we're talking about.

By demanding that this be done for free, A) you could very well be punishing people who had nothing to do with the ending, and you won't have the right to expect any sort of minimum standard from the content.

We set the minimum standard for the content on an individual level.

Each person requires it be at least of X, Y or Z quality. If they only reach X, say a few cheap cutscenes, all they do is alienate people and lose customers. If they provide Y, it recieves a lukewarm response, they some customers, win others back, if they provide Z, they get a happy response, positive word of mouth, etc.

I don't wish to repeat this sort of thing again. We have the intrinsic right to expect whatever we want, they simply decide what's financially responsible. Hypothetical: Providing only X costs them 100% of their consumers, the company goes under, it's obviously worth providing Y or Z. (Keep in mind under any circumstance they can provide a quality ending without going into the red given their profits from ME3 alone, so don't give me nonsense about "People working for free." the company could afford to pay their employees and still have made a profit.)

[Lugaidster]

Tregon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

granyte wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...
But then again, I'm not fighting for the industry. If you'd rather make your movement smaller because you want to "fight for the industry" I think you already lost anyway, AND you probably wouldn't get the DLC either. Worst outcome of all...

I'd rather lose right, than win wrong.

Then we can agree to disagree, whatever good that brings *sigh*.

sounds like oh it's alright to chose to have my cake right now at the price of half of every other meal i will eat for the rest of my life

What I was discussing with him is that we should pick our fights. If you just started a new soccer club you would go against the Manchester on the first game. Build momentum by gaining ground. Everyone that stands behind the retakeme3 movement can agree that they want the ending fixed. I say we stick to that until we get that. After that, you can if you wish demand for it to be free.

Have you ever been in haggling situation? Hmm? When you say you want proper ending DLC but specify nothing else, Bioware can come back and say "Here it is! It shall be 50 bucks!".

And that's it. You did not specify any other conditions but having DLC. Starting to say that it should not be so expensive AFTER your demands were met just makes you look like jackass. Bioware can say they offered the olive branch and you refused. 

While if you start by demanding it for free, they can make concession to make DLC. And then, if their promise (which I would not trust) is good enough, you can make concession on price.

This fight, if it gains any ground, will be back and forth before any solution is found. If you demand free content, you're giving them information on how much content they'll include. If they offer a peace solution that's free and you reject it you loose mainstream media appeal because you refused a free solution from the developers. Leaving money on the table let's them prepare a solution and if they wan't to charge, you'll have leverage. 

No one in their right mind would pay x ammount without knowing the quality of the product before hand, not in this situation. If they offer a paid solution, it's in their best interest that it satisfies every single claim about the endings out there, otherwise they risk even more damage to their image. Money gives leverage, taking it off the table only damages us in the long run. That's my view at least.

[Tregon]

TheRealMithril wrote...

You make it sound like BioWare is like Ryanair. ..

Hey, by releasing ME3 as it is they have proven they do not really care about quality of their product.
If they are let off the hook and rewarded with money, where is the motivation to do better in future?

Paid DLC only took off BECAUSE IT WORKED! People DID pay for DLC, so ever increasing amount of DLC is released. If they now can sell proper ending for money, it is like a bloody goldmine to exploit!

Where is the motivation to make game good and with proper ending straight off when you could just slap on it crap ending, wait for disappointment of the crowd and then tell that they can have new one for pitiful 20 bucks?

[wulf3n]

evisneffo wrote...
It would take an extra level of colossal stupidity to try the same thing twice, or to make a paid DLC in this situation without doing careful research as to what would work best given the current level of damage.

 

You'll have already given them money for the same reason before why wouldn't they think you would do it agin.

evisneffo wrote... 
Valid point though, and I imagine a fair few people will wait until someone else has bought and played it first.

Given the trend of the forum and the thread unlikely.

[TheRealMithril]

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

Well, if you actually pay for a better ending, I am quite certain they will do their best. I doubt they are deliberately being "bad".. I believe they were quite blind on how bad their current ending was. But this is what happens if you skip the focus groups.

[77boy84]

Paid ending DLC will happen, and the depressing thing is that it'll be a hit, and it'll show that developers can get away with this sort of crap as long as they have a dedicated group of fans.

And then it's just a slippery slope, as game companies try to siphon as much money out of their fans as possible with dlc. Locked content on the disc? Yeah. Gotta pay extra for the ending? You bet. Want those bugs fixed? Get out your wallet.

I've seen the future of the game industry, and it is bleak.

[zsom]

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

You wait and see the reactions to it? It is really that difficult?

[Tregon]

zsom wrote...

Did you even read his post? He is talking about DA3. How can he give feedback on that?

It is called leverage. It is too late not to buy ME3 if you have done so already. DA3 is their next product and is where the pain has to be targeted. ME3 profits will not last forever, and by refusing to buy their next product Bioware is forced to conceed or bankrupt. 

[SilentWolfie]

While it's true that ME 3 is less than ideal, it's not feasible for bioware to come up with an amazing ending without some form of budget. The only thing that can come out from this is to ensure you buy their products after reading careful reviews first.

[Ampliment]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

It seems this younger generation is conditioned to think that demanding value for your money is akin to "a false sense of entitlement". They actually look at it as a bad thing. Unless you just lay down and take it in the pooper like a good little sheep, you're a troublemaker.

Ok saying "take it in the pooper is making you look like a child any time you say it.  Your tone is really off making any argument.  You don't know the people on this forum so making a generalization such as the younger generation is invalid as well.  You're not demanding value for your money because I believe you got your value for your money.  I know my money was well worth the 50+ hours I've spent with the game.  You got your $60 and maybe $10 DLC whether you like how it turned out.  Your asking more work on something the developer considered a finished product if you think more content should come to you for free because you didn't like the way something turned out you are wrong

[Tregon]

zsom wrote...

Sir Fluffykins wrote...

If you have to pay for it, how could you pay not knowing what the "true conclusion" is. How do you know you won't get burnt again?

You wait and see the reactions to it? It is really that difficult?

Still means someone has to buy it blindly and provide the reactions.

[wulf3n]

zsom wrote...
You wait and see the reactions to it? It is really that difficult?

who's reaction? who do you think will be playing it first.

[Aiyie]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

ObsidianAgent wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, BioWare released an incomplete product for full price and I have no rational reason to support this behaviour. I'm not buying DLC to fix this mess and give BW and EA an easy out. They fix it for free or they lose custom. At this point I'm expecting 2 things before I spend a single penny on a BW or EA product

• From Ashes for free
• A fixed, proper ending

From Ashes should have been part of the retail game, and I don't care how they want to spin it or when they claim it was developed. It was ready to go on release date, it should have been in the game. And the ending... well to say it comes across as the cocaine-fuelled scribblings of a self-satisfied jackass is being charitable. Yo Dawg we heard you like Deus ex Machinas so we wrote in a Deus ex Machina to give you the ending from Deus ex Machina.

We're not asking BW and EA to do us a favour - we're telling them to finish the job we paid them for up-front. Move from that position and they'll just divide up the factions and conquer them seperately.

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

Definition of ENTITLEMENT1 a[/i] : the state or condition of being entitled : right b[/i] : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract 2 : a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program 3 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges
the contract we, the customers, have with the developer/publisher extends only as far as giving us the right to experience their intellectual property in a video game medium.

the ending was never specifically detailed to us prior to our paying for it.  we were given an idea of what it would consist of, but nothing more. 

a belief of being deserving of something is not the same as actually being deserving of something.

you can do as you please in regard to this... abandon them if you like, its not going to solve anything.  demanding things that are not only unreasonable, but absolutely outside the terms of your contract with the developer, is not going to do anything but hurt the movement.

I paid $60 for the full game. I am entitled (a word trogolydites love to throw around recently)  to a full game. 

and according to everything bioware has stated, thats exactly what they gave you. 

the fact that you're not satisfied with the results does not change that.

[Tregon]

SilentWolfie wrote...

While it's true that ME 3 is less than ideal, it's not feasible for bioware to come up with an amazing ending without some form of budget. The only thing that can come out from this is to ensure you buy their products after reading careful reviews first.

They have budget! They made lots of money with ME3. They can afford to write some of their profit off to make up their massive blunder.