571 réponses à ce sujet

[Aiyie]

HaesoME3 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Why are you so obsessed with contracts? Are you saying that I don't understand a highly-paid team of lawyers can't write a EULA that basically states I have no right to anything? Who cares? Are we going to court? No.

because acting like you have a right to more than you paid for is the worst kind of entitlement and its exactly the sort of thing that is making any effort to get anything better tougher to get.

until you figure out that you don't deserve or possess any inherent right to more than that what you got, you delegitimize the entire movement to get more.

unless youe entire purpose to be here is just to say how badly the devs did... in which case i have neither the need nor the desire to deal with you or your ilk.

be part of the solution or gtfo.

What we deserve and are entitled to is decided on an individual basis, how can you people not see this? If 90% of the people who purchase something decide they didn't get what they deserve - the company may or may not legally be obligated to make it right - but if they wish to stay a company much longer all the same they're going to try and make it right.

If you decide you got what you deserved, good for you, but only the CONSUMER can decide that unless you're trying to make a legal case. We're not trying to bring EA or Bioware to any court but that of public opinion. And in the court of public opinion whether or not we've got a case legally speaking - it's quite possible we can win and hurt them far too much for them to not make it right.

the court of public opinion is all based on opinion... considering my response, and the response of others in here...

do you think holding the stance some of the people have in here, demanding free content and not being willing to compromise at all, is going to result in anything more than a stalemate, at best?

court of public opinion is all about PR... Bioware has very bad PR right now... but hate to say it, so do some of the fanatics we have on our side as well.

whichever side is willing to come to the table first, that shows signs of willingness to work with the other side, is the side that will win in the court of public opinion.  the side that doesn't, the side demanding stuff without being willing to give up anything in return, is the side that will lose.

[Aiyie]

Aiyie wrote...

HaesoME3 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Why are you so obsessed with contracts? Are you saying that I don't understand a highly-paid team of lawyers can't write a EULA that basically states I have no right to anything? Who cares? Are we going to court? No.

because acting like you have a right to more than you paid for is the worst kind of entitlement and its exactly the sort of thing that is making any effort to get anything better tougher to get.

until you figure out that you don't deserve or possess any inherent right to more than that what you got, you delegitimize the entire movement to get more.

unless youe entire purpose to be here is just to say how badly the devs did... in which case i have neither the need nor the desire to deal with you or your ilk.

be part of the solution or gtfo.

What we deserve and are entitled to is decided on an individual basis, how can you people not see this? If 90% of the people who purchase something decide they didn't get what they deserve - the company may or may not legally be obligated to make it right - but if they wish to stay a company much longer all the same they're going to try and make it right.

If you decide you got what you deserved, good for you, but only the CONSUMER can decide that unless you're trying to make a legal case. We're not trying to bring EA or Bioware to any court but that of public opinion. And in the court of public opinion whether or not we've got a case legally speaking - it's quite possible we can win and hurt them far too much for them to not make it right.

the court of public opinion is all based on opinion... considering my response, and the response of others in here...

do you think holding the stance some of the people have in here, demanding free content and not being willing to compromise at all, is going to result in anything more than a stalemate, at best?

court of public opinion is all about PR... Bioware has very bad PR right now... but hate to say it, so do some of the fanatics we have on our side as well.

whichever side is willing to come to the table first, that shows signs of willingness to work with the other side, is the side that will win in the court of public opinion.  the side that doesn't, the side making demands without being willing to give up anything in return, is the side that will lose.

oops, double post... meant to edit and hit quote instead

Modifié par Aiyie, 19 mars 2012 - 02:49 .

[Heathen Pride]

It will not be free, but I will gladly pay... as I paid for Broken Steel for FO3.

[ThePrestige10]

Aiyie wrote...

And third, I said this before, if Bioware won't give us free DLC, they will lose Customers for future DLC. This is economy (I was three years on an economy school) and therefore it's their best interest to give us free DLC.

just going to pull this bit out, the rest of it has been gone over ad nauseum and isn't worth revisiting (people have made up their minds, not worth the time or effort to try and change them).

but... we don't know if its really in their best interest or not.  thats all dependent on their sales projections.  as someone with an economic background you must be aware that a company with a diverse portfolio can afford to lose on one product line if its other lines will make up for it.

if in the end, the newcomers, the people who didn't pre-order or pick up the game on day 1 aren't as dissatisfied as the rest of us... then there is much less incentive for them to channel the resources (i.e. money) into making a fix.

hell, even if the newcomers are just as pissed, their projections are just as likely to show that they can charge us and take minimal, if any, long term losses.

we all would love to think our individual dollar is worth more than the other guy's, but it just isn't. 

Your view is a little bit to focused on the company side. It's not only them, but also we - the customer.

And I fear - as much as I admire this community and as much that I believe you are a decent person - that too many apologists will hurt this cause. The term "useful idiot" was used in this thread, which I think fits. A company can be hard and unfair. Customers should be too or they have no chance against business.

I'm not saying we should be uncivil or impolite. Just that we should stick to what we deserve as a consumer and fight for it. Everything else will hurt the cause more. We should not be against each other in this community. And a huge majority thinks, that this is a bad and undeserved ending for an otherwise awesome trilogy. Me too.

Bioware also should respect this fact. It's not about a single customer. It's about hundreds of thousands (facebook, poll hints this number).

Modifié par ThePrestige10, 19 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[ObsidianAgent]

Aiyie wrote...

ObsidianAgent wrote...
Why are you so obsessed with contracts? Are you saying that I don't understand a highly-paid team of lawyers can't write a EULA that basically states I have no right to anything? Who cares? Are we going to court? No.

because acting like you have a right to more than you paid for is the worst kind of entitlement and its exactly the sort of thing that is making any effort to get anything better tougher to get.

until you figure out that you don't deserve or possess any inherent right to more than that what you got, you delegitimize the entire movement to get more.

unless youe entire purpose to be here is just to say how badly the devs did... in which case i have neither the need nor the desire to deal with you or your ilk.

be part of the solution or gtfo.

I've never trashed the devs on a single occasion. I believe 99% of ME3 is gaming Nirvana. And I cannot get through my head why someone would be so hostile to someone who is trying to get a better deal that they themselves want.

[TurianFrigate]

The only reason everyone is saying DLC instead of a free patch is because when Bioware/EA sees that so many are willing to buy it then the EA will fund it and they both get some god**'n money.
If we just keep up this talk about free patch we either don't get it at all, get it after months and months of waiting, or get a really crappy one. So I'm willing to pay.
Sometimes you just have to swallow your bride.

[recentio]

If they do an ending-expanding DLC it might come bundled with other content. Then they can claim they're charging for the other content with the ending that makes sense as a free included bonus.

[Neuthung]

HaesoME3 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

IF (196 point font) there's new ending DLC it WILL be paid DLC.

Accept that now.

I don't believe you've understood the point here -

IF there's no fix or we have to pay for them to fix their own mistake, Bioware needs to accept quite a few people will not pay for it or anything they make in the future.

Neuthung wrote...

 Sorry, but it's completely unfair to
demand the people of BioWare work for free. This was their intended
ending, and if they decide to change things to cater to their fan base,
we need to accept that they had to work overtime to achieve
that. 

I'll never understand people like you. They wouldn't be working for free, stop spouting this nonsense.

They would not be working overtime, they would be delaying another project. And that's the cost of doing business - you either make it right when you screw up or you cut your losses and hope after the backlash you're still ahead. If we make it too expensive not to do this for free - they will do it for free.

How is it hard to understand? They have to pay for man hours to actually make the desired product, pay the voice actors, and you're saying it wouldn't cost them anything? They would be working at a large deficit to hand this out for nothing. Honestly, THIS is the kind of thing that makes people think we're a bunch of whining entitled brats. =[

[Renew81]

granyte wrote...

The ending need to be fixed for free just look at the amount of plot holes the actual ending created.
these plot holes need to be fixed for free now if they wanna add some dlc content after the plot holes have been fixed fine for them.

but we need to stop setteling for crap if we bow down and buy a DLC only to fix what they broke we are basicaly saying it's alright put out crap and then have me pay so you fix what you did wrong.


EDIT just something i found browsing this forum it might give you more into why they need to do it for free www.youtube.com/watch

I think its unreasonable for the ammount of work they would have to do to make it free ,
altough i can understand you want it to be free i would not mind that either , if it means
getting closure i would gladly pay.

[Renew81]

TurianFrigate wrote...
Sometimes you just have to swallow your bride.

[Neuthung]

Renew81 wrote...

TurianFrigate wrote...
Sometimes you just have to swallow your bride.

Liara does look pretty tasty... Wait, what?

[Straw_foot]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

DLC necessary
Free preferred

^^^
This

[Computron2000]

Sometimes i don't get why people do not understand the value of a brand. ME is a brand and with it comes its IP (and its pretty well developed hence the invested amount is not negliable). A company with a proven IP does not drop it for no reason, there are tons of examples. Note how kingdoms of amular tries to sell itself by noting how "well developed the world is". Because of this there is an incentive to not allow the brand and its prior investment in it to become worthless.

Businesses care about profits and losses only. A number of people just think about the profit part of the equation and miss the simple point that a business cares about its losses as well and it is a loss both in terms of the brand value and invested amount, as well as a knock on follow on sales.

Does anyone doubt that the initial marketing idea will be push some trilogy pack (maybe there is one already) after ME3 goes to the channels?

If you shout loudly that you were not paid for selling your blood, the blood seller will try ways and means to get you to shut up or they lose their source of income. However if you volunteer to donate your blood to a blood seller, they won't reject you andwill happily ask that you continue to donate your blood, perhaps increasing from once a day to twice a day to three times a day or more. By the time you're dying from lack of blood and realise you've been had, no one cares, because its now "standard industry practice"

[Gigaheart]

Am i the only one who remember the time when addons was free and expansion packs ridiculously cheap but still they were high quality products? Besides when u ****ed up something its not like u asking for money to fix ur own fault right? Personally i decided that if they will change endings in free DLC i might pre-order next DA or ME. If they'll ask money - I'll pay for it and for every DLCs that will follow, but then I'm done with BW. If endings won't get fixed then I'm done with BW when ME3 multyplayer will bore me. Simple as that.

[77boy84]

TurianFrigate wrote...

The only reason everyone is saying DLC instead of a free patch is because when Bioware/EA sees that so many are willing to buy it then the EA will fund it and they both get some god**'n money.
If we just keep up this talk about free patch we either don't get it at all, get it after months and months of waiting, or get a really crappy one. So I'm willing to pay.
Sometimes you just have to swallow your bride.

We shouldn't have to swallow our pride. Bioware's the one that screwed up, and it's our money they want.

We hold the power in the equation, not them.

[KadivyaSky]

Paying for a corrected ending is like rewarding a dog with a treat for pooping on the carpet when he knew better. If you do that, he'll do it again to get that treat.

The same applies here. The company should not be rewarded for their mistakes. Let them take it out of their profits on what they've already had the consumers pay. The product was faulty. It's on them to correct it at their cost, not ours. We upheld our end of the bargain by purchasing the product already. It's their turn to deliver what they promised.

[TJWWE2007]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

DLC necessary
Free preferred

This

[Ilzairspar]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

DLC necessary
Free preferred

I'm with this.

BTW anyone see how ME3 is getting horrid reviews on Amazon.  it's at 2 stars now, and most if not all of the 1 and 2 star people are saying it's for the ending.  That will really hurt them around Christmas time if they don't change anything.

[swn32]

I can't believe how many people are willing to pay for the ending DLC. Future of gaming seems bleak. Thanks to all the tools of our generation.

[Dejan Kober]

Reading posts on this forum, and watching YT clips about endings of ME3, I'm starting to get a feeling that maybe they did it on purpose;

1. make a hype about game before launch
2. overprice it tnx to that hype
3. make even more expensive "collector edition" version
4. make a "first day" DLC for extra 10$
5. make a great game with lousy ending
6. make everybody angry about ending
7. angry fans = even more publicity for game
8. direct angry fans towards demanding new ending
9. wait till majority of them agrees that they will pay for new ending
10. give them new ending for 10-15$

Worst case scenario for EA/Bioware:
Retail ME3: 50$
From ashes: 10$
New ending: 10$
TOTAL: 70$

Best case scenario for EA/Bioware:
Collectors edition ME3: 70$
From ashes: 10$
New ending: 15$
TOTAL: 95$

So, what game developer wouldn't want to earn almost 100$ for a single copy of game?? And considering all that hype about endings, I can bet that they will most likely succeed in that.
And most of people will look at them as "good" guys who "listen" voice of fans and "give" them ending they wanted.... While whole time, we did exactly what EA/Bioware wanted us to do... give them more money for game we love, and still feel grateful that they took our money...

And even if they give us that ending as free DLC (considering that they have charge 10$ for 20min of gameplay in "From Ashes", they sud give new end for free), that will only give them extra "bonus" to charge extra for other DLCs that they will produce. So, even if new ending will be "for free", next DLC won't be 600 points, but it will be 800....

But, anyway, don't settle for anything less then free ending DLC (if there will be one)....

Modifié par Dejan Kober, 19 mars 2012 - 03:35 .

[Lugaidster]

77boy84 wrote...

TurianFrigate wrote...

The only reason everyone is saying DLC instead of a free patch is because when Bioware/EA sees that so many are willing to buy it then the EA will fund it and they both get some god**'n money.
If we just keep up this talk about free patch we either don't get it at all, get it after months and months of waiting, or get a really crappy one. So I'm willing to pay.
Sometimes you just have to swallow your bride.

We shouldn't have to swallow our pride. Bioware's the one that screwed up, and it's our money they want.

We hold the power in the equation, not them.

Our "power" is ephemeral, as days go by people just burn out. It's their loss, but in order to mantain our power we must retain numbers. I'm not here to say I won't buy another game from Bioware, that's implicit, what I'm here to do is to try and get a better ending.

By taking away money from the table you take away what little leverage we have. It's certainly not our only weapon, but we don't have that many. What's worse is that you have no source of reliable information to know exactly how much power we actually have. But they do, they see daily shipments and have people working fulltime to recover as much information as possible on the issue. Neither you nor I, nor anyone on this movement have enough information to know exactly how much power we hold or if the balance is in our favor. Which is why it is important to stay together despite the differences and be as vocal as we can on the issue at hand.

This thread does 2 things that are detrimental to the whole cause (if your cause is to get a better ending, nothing more, nothing less). It first gives them more information than they need by saying that we shouldn't be willing to spend money on the solution. If they factor this into their plans and add it with their information on how many people actually hate the endings (some say 90%, I'd wager it's around 50%, but it could be much less and we won't know), they could come to the conclusion that an ending DLC is not an option. Furthermore, by watching us fight over this, they'll see that we don't have cohesion. Secondly, it violently divides the people participating on the movement by claiming that those willing to give money are "pathetic". Some even claim that they shouldn't even be part of the movement. If you alienate your peers, you loose momentum. As we divide ourselves in this type of issues, we lose in the public court.

[Hargate]

Say NO to a paid DLC ending.

All it will do is set a dangerous precedent. You think Cut content turned Paid DLC, Day 1 DLC, and Overpriced little content DLC (See horse armor/weapons) is bad?

Well imagine what the future will hold if we show we are willing to pay for a better ending.

[Tzupi88]

Dejan Kober wrote...

Worst case scenario for EA/Bioware:
Retail ME3: 50$
From ashes: 10$
New ending: 10$
TOTAL: 70$

And ZERO sales from people that feel they were screwed by having to pay to fix a broken product.