232 réponses à ce sujet

[2484Stryker]

Ajensis wrote...

Let me start off by saying that I wasn't satisfied by the ending at all. There are plot holes and inconsistencies, yes. However, I think it's important we direct our attention to what didn't make sense, and the purpose of the Reapers isn't one of them. I'll try and keep it brief:

Scenario 1: "Order"

This is the state of the galaxy in the Mass Effect universe until the ending of the 3rd game, and how it's been for at least hundreds of thousands of years (and much more if we choose to believe the Catalyst).
In short, organic life evolves everywhere in the galaxy at different paces. When the Cycle has come to an end, the Reapers set out to perform their routinely task of wiping out all sentient life. They do this in order to preserve life - this is not a contradiction. Remember, they do not kill anything that's alive, only those who have attained too much wisdom and resourcefulness. Allow me to be the Devil's advocate for a second in hopes of elaborating my point:

Scenario 2: "Chaos"

The Catalyst explains that they believe that at a certain point, organics will have the skills and knowledge to create something too dangerous. It doesn't matter what you believe and that you proved the Catalyst wrong in a case or two - they're not human, so we can't necessarily apply our logic. The argument still stands: without the Reapers, organics may gain too much knowledge and create something they cannot control. Imagine the Geth conflict prior to its resolution, except galaxywide. Probable? I don't personally think so. But possible? Yes, anything is possible. It is this possibility that the Reapers guard us against.
What the Catalyst is protecting us against (however horrible the method) is the possibility that a synthetic race will overcome the ones that created them. If that happens on a larger scale, what are the odds that they'll allow new life to rise up and evolve without interference? Again, this is way out in the vague world of hypothetics, but we're not dealing with a human race - the mere 0,1 % chance of this scenario could mean a world of difference to a different race than humans (and possibly even to some humans). So what the Reapers are meant to prevent is having a synthetic race dominate the known galaxy by ensuring that organic life could never rebel against them.

The difference is that the Reapers allow organic life to exist, whereas our future creations might not. Life gets to evolve for 50.000 years, to live and love and experience and create and ponder. An ancient civilization merely thought it necessary to 'reset' life at specific intervals to make sure life wouldn't endanger itself. This is what we're fighting against. If we get a different ending without the Mass Relays blowing up, destroying the Reapers is basically throwing our future into a great Unknown where anything can happen. But, being human, I would of course never adhere to the logic of the Catalyst but now I'm digressing, sorry.


The popular Xzibit picture with "Yo dawg, I heard you don't wanna be
killed by synthetics, etc." does not point out a plothole. We've got
other things that we're better off addressing.

Keep up the civil behaviour and thoughtful criticism!

PS: feel free to let me know if someone made a thread about this as well. I searched through a dozen pages, but there's just so many threads in this forum (and not all of them descriptive in their titles ).

You've explained the Reaper's logic quite well, but I wouldn't say that it makes sense, unless by making sense you didn't mean that they're correct in doing so.

[Myskal1981]

Ajensis wrote...

As I replied to someone else: for them to protect us constantly would require their presence in known galaxy space. There are too many variables in this case. Organics might actually create armies of synthetics to kill the Reapers, so their presence wouldn't make anything easier.

And yes, I agree that they working on an unproven assumption (this is in response to likta_ as well), but most intelligent life would still work to prevent a catastrophe before it happens.

You do know that they always had a presence in known galaxy space. Sovereign was left behind for exactly this purpose. To keep an eye on organics and decide when it was time to harvest. I think it was stated in ME1 that Sovereign even checked the Extranet. You don't need an occupying force to protect and seeing that they needed only three years without help of the relays to get into the Milky Way, leaving just a couple of Reapers behind is more than enough until the bulk of the Reaper Fleet arrives.

Modifié par Myskal1981, 19 mars 2012 - 11:03 .

[Silhouett3]

Yes it makes sense;

you have to "ignore superficial appearance. Down to genetic code."

 ...in Reapers logic, processing and "saving" advanced species genetic material while allowing primitive species evolve on their own is the way of "imposing order on chaos" and at the same time the way to ensure all life has equal chance to create diversity. To them saving life is not saving the "form" of organics but the material of organics. Hence the fundamental conflict between organics and Reapers. Organics are not aware of their material. Your mind is not aware of the cells in your body. We can only comprehend the form. Supposedly Sovereign could comprehend both. Therefore every Reaper you meet start and end the conversation with the "You don't understand me, you are a fool" line. 

Prothean VI Vendatta spoke their views about how time is cyclical, many patterns repeat which are not only Reaper attacks but beyond them

I explained it briefly here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10219096/ 

[2484Stryker]

CavScout wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

But that circular logic...

I don't think you know what that means.... in fact, most folks who claim "circular logic" are actually using it themselves to "prove" their point.

Haha yeah.  I dislike the ending and don't agree with the Reaper's logic.  But everytime I see someone throw around the "circular argument" argument, I still lol...

Example of a circular argument: god does exists because the bible says so; the bible is right because god says it is.

[Ajensis]

Vergil_dgk wrote...
...or the reapers could just wait until such a creation actually arose, then zoom in and destroy it with their god-like powers, then tell sentients to stop creating that kind of stuff or be wiped out - and then zoom out again. Fighting war after war with a whole galaxy of advanced civilizations seems like kind of a high-risk strategy for a bunch of super-advanced machines/whatevers to pursue. I'm sorry, but the argument for the reaper solution is still terribly contrived and wafer thin. You can say it's not a plot hole, but it's still really far-fetched and unneccessary. The argument that reapers harvest advanced civilizations to improve themselves is simpler and far more sensible - and things should have been left there, imo. What we have now seems like a desperate reach for a surprising twist where none was needed.

I already addressed this possibility before. But alright, let's try a different approach. Imagine the following: World War II is raging, millions are dying and all is turmoil. Then someone thinks of a terrible device to win the war: a nuclear bomb, unlike anything the world has seen. But just as the final preparations to test it out is underway, something miraculous happens: the skies open, a heavenly light shines down, and what can only be described as God appears and says "Yo, people, don't make atomic bombs. They'll introduce a new horror to the world and no one will be happy for it. Maybe just turn it into power plants or sum'thin'." Then he departs and people are left dumb-struck.

Yes, I made it comical, but the point is this: think of how utterly changed a society would be if a higher power suddenly swooped down upon you like that. If some non-human race suddenly appeared tomorrow and removed all nuclear warheads in the world... how profoundly would that not change everything?

The way I see it, the creators of the Reapers might have believed in interfering as little as possible with life. But really, we don't know. We just know the basic motivation of why the Reapers exist.

Silhouett3 wrote...
Yes it makes sense;

you have to "ignore superficial appearance. Down to genetic code."

 ...in
Reapers logic, processing and "saving" advanced species genetic
material while allowing primitive species evolve on their own is the way
of "imposing order on chaos" and at the same time the way to ensure all
life has equal chance to create diversity. To them saving life is not
saving the "form" of organics but the material of organics. Hence the
fundamental conflict between organics and Reapers. Organics are not
aware of their material. Your mind is not aware of the cells in your
body. We can only comprehend the form. Supposedly Sovereign could
comprehend both. Therefore every Reaper you meet start and end the
conversation with the "You don't understand me, you are a fool" line. 

Prothean
VI Vendatta spoke their views about how time is cyclical, many patterns
repeat which are not only Reaper attacks but beyond them

I explained it briefly here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10219096/ 

Ah, thanks for that! I knew there would've been other threads touching upon this before this one [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
I've only skimmed your thread, but it seems an interesting read - I'll
go over it later when I'm not stressing out from replying to so many
replies [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

2484Stryker wrote...
You've explained the Reaper's logic quite
well, but I wouldn't say that it makes sense, unless by making sense
you didn't mean that they're correct in doing so.

Thanks! And don't worry, I most certainly do not think they're correct in doing what they're doing! Just wanted to comment on the perception that their motivation doesn't make sense - it does, in a cold and inhuman way [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Ajensis, 19 mars 2012 - 11:11 .

[wikkedjester]

I think a better argument for the Reapers would have been that Advanced Civilizations will always destroy the younger ones. This is a fundamental truth of the Mass Effect Universe. The Salarians uplifted the Krogan to fight the Rachni, they gave a pre-spaceflight civilization the ability to go into space long before they were ready. We see this again with the Yog in ME3 on the Salarian home world. When talking to Jovik this was the order of the day with their civilization, the Asari were genetically manipulated, explaining why they don’t fit into any traditional classification of life forms they are the platypus of the galaxy .

Had the Reapers said look advanced civilizations will always destroy the young, this would have been something I could get behind. I wouldn’t like it and I’d fight like hell to stop it, but I would see the truth in it. The Earth’s history is full of this types of thing, more advanced civilizations coming in and crushing the less advanced for resources.

Edit: the reason I come to this conclusions if the reapers have no problem destroying advanced civilizations, they seek to protect the younger ones, but not from the Advanced, but from the creations of the advanced, the logic is, the advanced will create synthetics, that will one day kill the organics, but it wont stop at their creators, it will move on to ALL organic life. 

Modifié par wikkedjester, 19 mars 2012 - 11:14 .

[SimKoning]

These guys pretty much sum up why the whole premise is more than a bit silly:

http://www.orionsarm.com/

The whole setting is based around MULTIPLE singularities and AI gods, some nice, some not so nice. There is no reason to assume that a tech singularity would result in a galactic mass extinction. Synthetic life would become so radically different from organic life that they would occupy radically different niches in the galactic ecology. The whole time I was playing ME 3, I thought I was fighting for a new era of galactic civilization free from the tyranny of the Reapers. I always thought that the Reapers were like the Inhibitors from Alastair Reynold's 'Revelation' space series, which were a race of machines that wiped out organic species purely to maintain their dominant position in the galaxy. Then I find out that the Reapers are claiming that they are solving a problem by becoming the problem.

Modifié par SimKoning, 19 mars 2012 - 11:12 .

[2484Stryker]

Ajensis wrote...

Vergil_dgk wrote...
...or the reapers could just wait until such a creation actually arose, then zoom in and destroy it with their god-like powers, then tell sentients to stop creating that kind of stuff or be wiped out - and then zoom out again. Fighting war after war with a whole galaxy of advanced civilizations seems like kind of a high-risk strategy for a bunch of super-advanced machines/whatevers to pursue. I'm sorry, but the argument for the reaper solution is still terribly contrived and wafer thin. You can say it's not a plot hole, but it's still really far-fetched and unneccessary. The argument that reapers harvest advanced civilizations to improve themselves is simpler and far more sensible - and things should have been left there, imo. What we have now seems like a desperate reach for a surprising twist where none was needed.

I already addressed this possibility before. But alright, let's try a different approach. Imagine the following: World War II is raging, millions are dying and all is turmoil. Then someone thinks of a terrible device to win the war: a nuclear bomb, unlike anything the world has seen. But just as the final preparations to test it out is underway, something miraculous happens: the skies open, a heavenly light shines down, and what can only be described as God appears and says "Yo, people, don't make atomic bombs. They'll introduce a new horror to the world and no one will be happy for it. Maybe just turn it into power plants or sum'thin'." Then he departs and people are left dumb-struck.

Yes, I made it comical, but the point is this: think of how utterly changed a society would be if a higher power suddenly swooped down upon you like that. If some non-human race suddenly appeared tomorrow and removed all nuclear warheads in the world... how profoundly would that not change everything?

The way I see it, the creators of the Reapers might have believed in interfering as little as possible with life. But really, we don't know. We just know the basic motivation of why the Reapers exist.

Silhouett3 wrote...
Yes it makes sense;

you have to "ignore superficial appearance. Down to genetic code."

 ...in
Reapers logic, processing and "saving" advanced species genetic
material while allowing primitive species evolve on their own is the way
of "imposing order on chaos" and at the same time the way to ensure all
life has equal chance to create diversity. To them saving life is not
saving the "form" of organics but the material of organics. Hence the
fundamental conflict between organics and Reapers. Organics are not
aware of their material. Your mind is not aware of the cells in your
body. We can only comprehend the form. Supposedly Sovereign could
comprehend both. Therefore every Reaper you meet start and end the
conversation with the "You don't understand me, you are a fool" line. 

Prothean
VI Vendatta spoke their views about how time is cyclical, many patterns
repeat which are not only Reaper attacks but beyond them

I explained it briefly here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10219096/ 

Ah, thanks for that! I knew there would've been other threads touching upon this before this one [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]
I've only skimmed your thread, but it seems an interesting read - I'll
go over it later when I'm not stressing out from replying to so many
replies [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

So the Reapers allow the civilizations to develop as much as they can, free of interference (except from the mass effect technologies), but then ultimately terminates them at their apex. 

You can argue that as individuals, their lives have meaning.  But as a species, there's is no meaning to life, no?  Because then the purpose of every species as a whole, would be to develop until it gets wiped out by the Reapers.

I think the creators of the Reapers would need to reevaluate the meaning of life for entire civilizations...

EDIT: sorry this reply didn't really have a point.  Just me musing on some meaning of life stuff...lol

Modifié par 2484Stryker, 19 mars 2012 - 11:14 .

[likta_]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Prothean VI Vendatta spoke their views about how time is cyclical, many patterns repeat which are not only Reaper attacks but beyond them

I explained it briefly here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10219096/ 

How would they know that? They thought they were the rulers of the galaxy, they did not know about the reapers until it was to late. They never had a "Shepard" to speak to a Reaper, they had no warnings from their forerunners. I doubt they would suddently start studying ancient civilizations when they are struggling to stay alive.

[Xandurpein]

It really doesn't matter if the Reapers logic is inherently logical or not. There's no reason for Shepard to believe it and there's absolutely no reason for me as a player to feel contentment for reaching the end of saga that you've been engrossed in, when it ends with me being forced to play a set of RGB choices I don't accept as valid, and isn't even given the option to voice my utter contempt for the flawed premises the enemy bases it's assumptions on. It's as if the game had ended with a final confrontation between Harbinger and Shepard and you see Harbinger say : "We are the true destiny of the Galaxy, puny mortal!" and Shepard just answers "Umm... ok, sorry then." and surrenders. It could happen logically, but it's hardly fulfilling.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 19 mars 2012 - 11:14 .

[Extort]

 NO your adding things to this discussion!!!!

Stick to that internet meme please DO NOT attempt to extrapalate plsssssss

Modifié par Extort, 19 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[Lionel Ou]

Ajensis wrote...
The way I see it, the creators of the Reapers might have believed in interfering as little as possible with life. But really, we don't know. We just know the basic motivation of why the Reapers exist.

I'd say that trying to determine how all organics will evolve is not "interfering as little as possible". It is a massive invasive action to all life. It kills the ability for organics to evolve along their own way, make their own choices. It reduces life to a petri dish in a god like creatures biochemistry lab.

That was not the impression I got when playing the game, that organic life could never be more than the toys of a race of galactic mad doctors. The impression I got from the game was as those from a space opera with pieces of H.P. Lovecraft thrown in to make an enemy.

Modifié par Lionel Ou, 19 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[2484Stryker]

Xandurpein wrote...

It really doesn't matter if the Reapers logic is inherently logical or not. There's no reason for Shepard to believe it and there's absolutely no reason for me as a player to feel contentment for reaching the end of saga that you've been engrossed in, when it ends with me being forced to play a set of RGB choices I don't accept as valid, and isn't even given the option to voice my utter contempt for the flawed premises the enemy bases it's assumptions on. It's as if the game had ended with a final confrontation between Harbinger and Shepard and you see Harbinger say : "We are the true destiny of the Galaxy, puny mortal!" and Shepard just answers "Umm... ok, sorry then." and surrenders. It could happen logically, but it's hardly fulfilling.

I don't think the OP's point is to say that the ending was good or made sense.  He's only saying that the Reaper's logic isn't actually flawed or illogical - it's wrong, perhaps, but not illogical.

[Wizard of thay]

I dislike the fact that the reasoning as explained by the OP is ot aailable to be explained in the game.

but some more holes I have noticed in the reaper solution.

1) Reaper Upgrades to the Geth changed the Geth from a Hive mind to distinct individuals similar to organics...a better solution than mass murder?

2) The Star Child reached the coclusion that synthetic will kill all organics...based on what evidence.
1) the starchild witessed this happening in an earlier cycle...in which case where did all the
orgaics from all the other cycles come from?
2) it didn't witness this happen and based is conclusions on suposition.
Neither option appears entirely satisfactory.

Modifié par Wizard of thay, 19 mars 2012 - 11:18 .

[2484Stryker]

Wizard of thay wrote...

I dislike the fact that the reasoning as explained by the OP is ot aailable to be explained in the game.

but some more holes I have noticed in the reaper solution.

1) Reaper Upgrades to the Geth changed the Geth from a Hive mind to distinct individuals similar to organics...a better solution than mass murder?

2) The Star Child reached the coclusion that synthetic will kill all organics...based on what evidence.
1) the starchild witessed this happening in an earlier cycle...in which case where did all the
orgaics from all the other cycles come from?
2) it didn't witness this happen and based is conclusions on suposition.
Neither option appears entirely satisfactory.

Star Child's logic is: it almost did happen once and had the potential of wiping out all life.  It was stopped, but it could happen again and may extinguish all life.

And while it was able to updrade the Geth, it might not be able to with another synthetic life that could be invented by some advanced oragnics, assuming that it even becomes hostile.

Modifié par 2484Stryker, 19 mars 2012 - 11:22 .

[Tregon]

Ajensis wrote...

Tregon wrote...

Ajensis wrote...
(...)

Except that requires two things which MUST be true...
1) Synthetic life must want to destroy ALL life.
2) Synthetic life must be able to DO that.

You need motivation and ability both, one or another does not work.
Geth for example lack motivation, and when we look at might of Citadel species, they lack power as well.
Ragtag
fleet of Quarians in ME3 were pressing Geth hard. Add in Turian and/or
other Citadel species fleets and Geth are kicked down hard.

And those two things could very well become true without any kind of imposed order. It doesn't seem likely in 2184 (?) A.D., but you can't say it won't be possible in 7.502 A.D.
It's unlikely, but it's possible. That's all the incentive the Catalyst needs for them to have created the Reapers.

Except that disregards possibility of organic life becoming so powerful synthetics, like Reapers, have no hope. Transcending their consciousness into some for of godhood or whatever. Reapers are not saying that synthetics might become too powerful, but that they WILL become too powerful. But it is never proven.

Unproven claim cannot be taken as truth.

Extinction based on flimsy "it MIGHT happen" denies all the sapient species chance to try to test their true potential. Their evolution is stopped at aribtrary moment without ability to work it forward.

[proffbeer]

I'm sorry, but circular logic is, by very definition, illogical. Doesn't matter how you spin it, in the end it all boils down to the same thing. The star child created synthetics, to kill (or harvest, which ever you prefer) organics, to prevent organics from building synthetics that kill organics. The sad part is, i still sit here in stupefied awe at the level of absurdity that statement has. It just doesn't make sense at any level. If the Star Child is as all powerful and all knowing as it came off to be, then it would have found a far better solution then the circular logic it created.

[JPR1964]

In the end, nothing make sense...

Hold the line,

JPR out!

[2484Stryker]

proffbeer wrote...

I'm sorry, but circular logic is, by very definition, illogical. Doesn't matter how you spin it, in the end it all boils down to the same thing. The star child created synthetics, to kill (or harvest, which ever you prefer) organics, to prevent organics from building synthetics that kill organics. The sad part is, i still sit here in stupefied awe at the level of absurdity that statement has. It just doesn't make sense at any level. If the Star Child is as all powerful and all knowing as it came off to be, then it would have found a far better solution then the circular logic it created.

Haha I understand your frustration.  If it helps, don't think of the Reapers as synthetics (they're claimed NOT to be), but rather as cyborgs.  I know it's semantics, but there is a difference.

[2484Stryker]

My conclusion is that while the Catalyst is being extremely logical, he is also being terribly irrational. Wiping out all advanced organics at their apex just to extinguish the mere possibility of a hostile synthetic race being created AND wanting to exterminate all organic life, is a monumentally bad idea. And the fact that Commander Shepard would accept this is a major part of why the ending sucked for me.

[Doctor Uburian]

 Ends do not justify the means.

The reapers are not capable of executing the task they have been ordered to do because:

They are merciless

They are walking nightmare factories

They make suffer the civilizations they attack


They are the biggest hypocrites of that universe 

They have no empathy

The civilizations they harvest are not preserved, they are just turned on to abominations

They have no free will, they are only slaves of a useless logic

They are arrogant 

They don't have the knowledge necessary to ¨restore the order¨ efficiently

They are the personification of the entropy, on the long shot, their solution will end destroying everything, including
themselves

They are just, an error

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 19 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[Ajensis]

Myskal1981 wrote...
You do know that they always had a
presence in known galaxy space. Sovereign was left behind for exactly
this purpose. To keep an eye on organics and decide when it was time to
harvest. I think it was stated in ME1 that Sovereign even checked the
Extranet. You don't need an occupying force to protect and seeing that
they needed only three years without help of the relays to get into the
Milky Way, leaving just a couple of Reapers behind is more than enough
until the bulk of the Reaper Fleet arrives.

What I meant by presence was one that was known to the inhabitants of the known galaxy.

But yeah, alright, you might be correct in that it could happen. I'm not saying there couldn't be other ways to ensure the goal that the Reapers work towards. I'm just saying that there is a goal

2484Stryker wrote...
So the Reapers allow the civilizations to develop as much as they can, free of interference (except from the mass effect technologies), but then ultimately terminates them at their apex. 

You can argue that as individuals, their lives have meaning.  But as a species, there's is no meaning to life, no?  Because then the purpose of every species as a whole, would be to develop until it gets wiped out by the Reapers.

I think the creators of the Reapers would need to reevaluate the meaning of life for entire civilizations...

EDIT: sorry this reply didn't really have a point.  Just me musing on some meaning of life stuff...lol

How dare you muse here! hehe, nah, kidding - musing is alright

I certainly also believe that the Catalyst and its creators should "reevaluate the meaning of life" - the important thing to keep in mind is that we're saying this as human beings. It's not a universal truth that the Reapers are horrible creations and that their actions are so morally wrong it's sickening. That's only true from our point of view as ****** sapiens. Who's to say what's wrong and what's right where other species are concerned? They obviously believed they did something that was morally acceptable, maybe even good. It's up to us to oppose that view by fighting for our survival

Too bad there wasn't much survival in the ending("s") we got.

Xandurpein wrote...
(...) It's as if the game had ended with a final confrontation between Harbinger and Shepard and you see Harbinger say : "We are the true destiny of the Galaxy, puny mortal!" and Shepard just answers "Umm... ok, sorry then." and surrenders. It could happen logically, but it's hardly fulfilling.

I agree completely. As I said in the opening post, the ending gave me little satisfaction as well but that's being discussed in countless other threads

Lionel Ou wrote...

Ajensis wrote...
The way I see it, the creators of the Reapers might have believed in interfering as little as possible with life. But really, we don't know. We just know the basic motivation of why the Reapers exist.

I'd say that trying to determine how all organics will evolve is not "interfering as little as possible". It is a massive invasive action to all life. It kills the ability for organics to evolve along their own way, make their own choices. It reduces life to a petri dish in a god like creatures biochemistry lab.

That was not the impression I got when playing the game, that organic life could never be more than the toys of a race of galactic mad doctors. The impression I got from the game was as those from a space opera with pieces of H.P. Lovecraft thrown in to make an enemy.

Haha, I just knew I'd regret posting those lines you quoted. Yeah, it's a stretch and there's little evidence to support it... I was just trying to present possible lines of reasoning. Note that I slipped in "might have" - I didn't write that at first, but then I realised it would probably be ill-received to state my personal guess as a fact
Defending the possibility of what I wrote: it's possible that they grudgingly put up the Relays because it was the only way to ensure the Cycle's continuance. But I'd rather not continue down this lane as we have way too little information and already it's just my imagination saying "X might've been true... and maybe they thought Y because of Z". Nothing much to gain from that, anyway

Edit: grr, the formatting keep going bonkers even with simple copy-paste quotes. And my previous smilies don't seem to show up either when I edit them in after posting. I should probably sacrifice a goat to the forum-Gods to appease them...

Modifié par Ajensis, 19 mars 2012 - 11:36 .

[Tocquevillain]

count_4 wrote...

likta_ wrote...
Why would they believe that synthetics will inevitably wipe out all organic life? It never happened before.

'Nuff said.

You can't prove that in the last ten million years in the ME universe, a machine race created by organics did not start to commit a galaxy wide genocide. Assuming the Catalyst is not lying, and we have no reason to believe he is lying, there is a good reason for why the Reapers do what they do.

[Tocquevillain]

Shezo wrote...

I'm kinda more bothered with their means, they way how they achieve their goal, rather their logic and goal.

What do we have ?
Some advanced AI using Reapers to destroy civilizations in order to save other organic life from synthetics that this said civilizations may create.
Ok, so the goal is to save all organic life.
And means to do it is destruction of advanced civilization.
So far, it's kinda ok, stupid, but ok.

But let's look at means, at the way how they destroying civilized life.
They literally reaping all life, using harvester ships that act like real slaughter houses, they use terror tactics by unleashing husks and other monstrosities. deploy concentration camps , terrorizing population etc.
In short, they unleash real hell and horror on us.

Yet they do it so save life.

It doesn't compute, really.
When goals and means (tools) differ _this_ much, something is really wrong, someone is lying or not telling all the truth.
You can't, literally can't do this horrors for so long in the name of greater good.

It's either this AI is so super stupid by doing so.
Or it's malevolent lying tyrant.

You're trying to describe million year old beings with attributes we normally give to humans. They're beyond comprehension for a real reason...they don't care about you or me or that guy over there, they are interested in the ongoing evolution of life throughout the galaxy. That's a pretty incomprehensible mindset to most humans. We don't say "well I could die and it would be alright because humans will live on", for instance.