232 réponses à ce sujet

[Wildhide]

likta_ wrote...

Why would they believe that synthetics will inevitably wipe out all organic life? It never happened before. And why wouldn't they just roam the galaxy and kill off all synthetics? Because the damn ending does not make any sense, that's why.

This is a good point!

[Myrmedus]

TeamR wrote...

Genera1Nemesis wrote...


Stupidest thing ever considering Reapers were organic hiveminds in synthetic outer shells (they were spaceships in a nutshell) but they were not AI.

This is the biggest fail so far in the whole argument against the ending, because it means people weren't paying attention.

I'm pretty sure the Reapers were described numerous times as synthetics. 

How do you create a race of immortal organics? 

Also, one of the choices at the end of ME3 was to destroy the Reapers in a process that would destroy the Citadel, the geth, and all other synthetics

Without grasping at straws and going by the information given to us, I think it's pretty clear that the Reapers are more sythetic than anything else

Eh, to be fair, they're hybrids.

They're sort of like cyborgs with synthetic armour plating.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 12:47 .

[imooumoo]

First of all: Who the hell are the Reapers to tell us what we can or cannot do and live in our galaxy and our homes. Just because they think something will happen doesn't mean it will. Also, what does it matter to them? They are no longer physical beings. Why would they care? Actually, they do not care, only the godchild seems to care, and he doesn't show us that he does in the least.
If the end result of every civilization is making synthetics that eventually kill all organics then how come when the Geth were given the chance to entirely kill their creators, they let the Quarians pass through the relay? Because it was illogical to kill an entire species let alone galactic civilization.
The Reapers did not have an agenda. They had a purpose. Kill all advanced sentient life, and harvest them to bring greater power to themselves. The Reapers harvest not because they feel sorry for us, but because they want to be more powerful. Otherwise, why not just outright kill everyone?
Also, killing everyone in order to preserve continued existence is illogical. Instead they could do many other things: Teach civilization the mistakes of their past (And the Protheans, because they made the same mistake as cited by Javik who talks about a war with synthetics in his time) in order to help with the effort to preserve peace between the Geth and the galaxy. Or they could lie in wait for the state of peace to deteriorate when (IF they are right) synthetics begin their destruction of galactic civilization and then intervene.
TL:DR Reaper logic is irrelevant, and not logical. They are power hungry, Godchild is illogical and power hungry.

[Silhouett3]

Myrmedus wrote...

I cannot help but think most of these arguments -for- the logic is just people clutching at straws to try and make some sense of the ending because otherwise they'll feel devoid.

How disappointed I'm with the ending won't just destroy the fact that I've been trying to picture what might be the Reapers' motivation from the moment Sovereign uttered the following sentence:

We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

[Tocquevillain]

Myrmedus wrote...


So you've basically gone from saying "The Reapers' purpose makes sense" to "The Reapers are only full of **** because they were programmed by someone."

Backstepping to the "they were created by an organic" or comparing them to an organic democracy is basically a re-worded version of saying they're fallible. If they're fallible then their logic is fallible. Your post is not an argument for the logic of their argument, it is simply an explanation of why they may do it.

All anybody in this thread is saying is this (we're all saying the same thing):

The Reapers motives have a clear purpose. That purpose makes sense, in that the various premises build upon each other in a logical manner, so that there is internal consistency. People are saying it does not have internal consistency. Well, it does. Whether you think it's right or wrong to do this based on a subjective view of the galaxy, is cool, but saying it doesn't have internal consistency seems to me to be wrong.

People who oppose this view say "it does not make sense to kill life(A) to protect life(B)". Well, it does to the Reapers, if life(A) is going to create something that kills life(A) and life(.

There. It's been...distilled!

We don't make those types of judgments as humans, obviously...that seems to be the point where people lose it. Not you, cause you just wrote you don't like the way it's presented, but a lot of other people are asking the same questions.

[Tocquevillain]

EmperorZorn wrote...

Ajensis wrote...
What the Catalyst is protecting us against (however horrible the method) is the possibility that a synthetic race will overcome the ones that created them.

Then why did the reapers ally themselves with the Geth ?
And aren't the reapers themself a synthetic race which has overcome all other races and is annihilating sentient beings ?

..it makes no sense at all.

They allied themselves out of convenience. An easier way to kill the Quarians.

[markusprime]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

markusprime wrote...

 The Reaper’s whole purpose is to save organics by killing them. So that organics won’t make synthetics who will then kill organics. Dumb as hell plot and who ever wrote this needs to be fired.

First of all... ouch.. that really hurt to read... second..

You are proving to be the dumb one with that statement for not understanding what the Catalyst explained, which he did in a very simple manner... indoctrinaction or not, that is not what he is telling Shepard.

Go on youtube, watch it, try to hear the words instead of some idiotic review joke who did not get it either... then come back and fel welcome to answer the thread in discussion.

Its as dumb as it sounds, and so is the annoying kid/catalyst.

Modifié par markusprime, 19 mars 2012 - 01:04 .

[WazTheMagnificent]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


So you've basically gone from saying "The Reapers' purpose makes sense" to "The Reapers are only full of **** because they were programmed by someone."

Backstepping to the "they were created by an organic" or comparing them to an organic democracy is basically a re-worded version of saying they're fallible. If they're fallible then their logic is fallible. Your post is not an argument for the logic of their argument, it is simply an explanation of why they may do it.

All anybody in this thread is saying is this (we're all saying the same thing):

The Reapers motives have a clear purpose. That purpose makes sense, in that the various premises build upon each other in a logical manner, so that there is internal consistency. People are saying it does not have internal consistency. Well, it does. Whether you think it's right or wrong to do this based on a subjective view of the galaxy, is cool, but saying it doesn't have internal consistency seems to me to be wrong.

People who oppose this view say "it does not make sense to kill life(A) to protect life(B)". Well, it does to the Reapers, if life(A) is going to create something that kills life(A) and life(.

There. It's been...distilled!

We don't make those types of judgments as humans, obviously...that seems to be the point where people lose it. Not you, cause you just wrote you don't like the way it's presented, but a lot of other people are asking the same questions.

The star child says his solution preserves organics "forever" in reaper form.  This obviosuly isn't true, as he sends them into battle and several die each cycle (several reapers add up to thousands of ascended organics). Now why can't the reapers be automated? Their function is not complicated. If his goal is to PRESERVE organics, then he should not send them into battle. They should be put somewhere safe.

This doesn't seem consistent to me.

Modifié par WazTheMagnificent, 19 mars 2012 - 01:08 .

[WazTheMagnificent]

that was retarded of me

Modifié par WazTheMagnificent, 19 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[WazTheMagnificent]

wat

Modifié par WazTheMagnificent, 19 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[Tocquevillain]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...


5) It comes off as bad writing at best, and pissing all over established canon at worst. Completely changing an enemy's purpose over the last 10 minutes, by introducing a Deus Ex Machina-like character to boot, is NOT the way to end a 100+ hour trilogy. I'm sorry, I care not how much ''sense''' it makes or how ''neccessary'' it is in the long run. It's pure, distilled bad writing.

The Reapers' original purpose was never explained until ME3. So it wasn't changed, it was revealed.

Also, the Catalyst isn't a Deus Ex. It's the thing you're gunning for for most of the game, since it's your only chance of stopping the Reapers. Finding out the Catalyst isn't what you expected it to be...maybe that's cause for a bit of grouching.

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 19 mars 2012 - 01:11 .

[sOUZUKEN]

Here's my theory. The Catalyst AI was created by the first spacefaring species/race/group of races. This AI maintained galactic order. One thing led to another and Boom, this AI rebelled against its own creators, Wiping out several of these species worlds.

The AI naturally recognized his fault and tried to keep its creators from vanishing, thinking that there was no longer an alternative, He preserved his creators in a synthetic starship using organics as ingredients, Sapient as these starships we're they all adhered to this AIs core logic. After a few millenia this Ai tried to rebuild, to enhance life, but yet again the cycle would repeat and an AI had rebelled against it's creators, realizing that history repeats itself, the AI, fearing organic life would be decimated, took it upon itself to build upon its core programming to preserve "Galactic Order". In doing so preventing the total annihilation of Biologic, sentient and non-sentient life.

Since it does view organics as special, He used organics to recreate these sapient starships to further its cause and preserving them not wiping them out, effectively uplifting them from the plight of being destroyed by their other own sapient synthetic creations.

For those saying Synthetics wiping out organics didn't happen, No one knows whether it is true or not. I am inclined to believe its false. The Prothean VI already noted that time is cyclical, many patterns repeat. Now since we know almost nothing about pre-prothean cycle I can assume that something similar to the morning war has already occured.

[The Night Mammoth]

The Catalyst has a hypothesis, nothing more. The Geth and EDI directly contradict its assertions.

[Tocquevillain]

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


So you've basically gone from saying "The Reapers' purpose makes sense" to "The Reapers are only full of **** because they were programmed by someone."

Backstepping to the "they were created by an organic" or comparing them to an organic democracy is basically a re-worded version of saying they're fallible. If they're fallible then their logic is fallible. Your post is not an argument for the logic of their argument, it is simply an explanation of why they may do it.

All anybody in this thread is saying is this (we're all saying the same thing):

The Reapers motives have a clear purpose. That purpose makes sense, in that the various premises build upon each other in a logical manner, so that there is internal consistency. People are saying it does not have internal consistency. Well, it does. Whether you think it's right or wrong to do this based on a subjective view of the galaxy, is cool, but saying it doesn't have internal consistency seems to me to be wrong.

People who oppose this view say "it does not make sense to kill life(A) to protect life(B)". Well, it does to the Reapers, if life(A) is going to create something that kills life(A) and life(.

There. It's been...distilled!

We don't make those types of judgments as humans, obviously...that seems to be the point where people lose it. Not you, cause you just wrote you don't like the way it's presented, but a lot of other people are asking the same questions.

The star child says his solution preserves organics "forever" in reaper form.  This obviosuly isn't true, as he sends them into battle and several die each cycle (several reapers add up to thousands of ascended organics). Now why can't the reapers be automated? Their function is not complicated. If his goal is to PRESERVE organics, then he should not send them into battle. They should be put somewhere safe.

This doesn't seem consistent to me.

He doesn't say forever. Skip to 15:00 here: https://www.youtube....?v=96CczhHtqgY.

I see what you're saying, the Reapers can't really protect life if they let themselves get killed. Then again, they are wiping out billions of beings every 50k years, so if they can do that, I imagnie it's no big problem if old Reaper ships die.
:innocent:

[WazTheMagnificent]

Tocquevillain wrote...

WazTheMagnificent wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


So you've basically gone from saying "The Reapers' purpose makes sense" to "The Reapers are only full of **** because they were programmed by someone."

Backstepping to the "they were created by an organic" or comparing them to an organic democracy is basically a re-worded version of saying they're fallible. If they're fallible then their logic is fallible. Your post is not an argument for the logic of their argument, it is simply an explanation of why they may do it.

All anybody in this thread is saying is this (we're all saying the same thing):

The Reapers motives have a clear purpose. That purpose makes sense, in that the various premises build upon each other in a logical manner, so that there is internal consistency. People are saying it does not have internal consistency. Well, it does. Whether you think it's right or wrong to do this based on a subjective view of the galaxy, is cool, but saying it doesn't have internal consistency seems to me to be wrong.

People who oppose this view say "it does not make sense to kill life(A) to protect life(B)". Well, it does to the Reapers, if life(A) is going to create something that kills life(A) and life(.

There. It's been...distilled!

We don't make those types of judgments as humans, obviously...that seems to be the point where people lose it. Not you, cause you just wrote you don't like the way it's presented, but a lot of other people are asking the same questions.

The star child says his solution preserves organics "forever" in reaper form.  This obviosuly isn't true, as he sends them into battle and several die each cycle (several reapers add up to thousands of ascended organics). Now why can't the reapers be automated? Their function is not complicated. If his goal is to PRESERVE organics, then he should not send them into battle. They should be put somewhere safe.

This doesn't seem consistent to me.

He doesn't say forever. Skip to 15:00 here: https://www.youtube....?v=96CczhHtqgY.

I see what you're saying, the Reapers can't really protect life if they let themselves get killed. Then again, they are wiping out billions of beings every 50k years, so if they can do that, I imagnie it's no big problem if old Reaper ships die.
:innocent:

But that's the whole point, according to the starchild they are not wiped out, but "ascended". This is essentially his justification. Their consciousness is literally stored in reaper form. So clearly he DOES care about preserving them. If he just wanted to wipe them out the reapers job would be a lot easier.

[The Night Mammoth]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...


5) It comes off as bad writing at best, and pissing all over established canon at worst. Completely changing an enemy's purpose over the last 10 minutes, by introducing a Deus Ex Machina-like character to boot, is NOT the way to end a 100+ hour trilogy. I'm sorry, I care not how much ''sense''' it makes or how ''neccessary'' it is in the long run. It's pure, distilled bad writing.

The Reapers' original purpose was never explained until ME3. So it wasn't changed, it was revealed.

It was alluded to. The reality is pretty different to what was expected. 

Also, the Catalyst isn't a Deus Ex. It's the thing you're gunning for for most of the game, since it's your only chance of stopping the Reapers. Finding out the Catalyst isn't what you expected it to be...maybe that's cause for a bit of grouching.

The Citadel is pretty much a Chekhov's Gun. 

The Crucible is a partial Deus Ex Machina. 

The Catalyst is a literal DEM, and a partial thematic one. It's alluded to, sure, but it's a gigantic cop out so the witers can give people a choice whilst also having Shepard make the ultimate sacrific, as well as a failed attempt to produce and interesting outcome, with control and destroy. 

[Troubleshooter11]

Their reasoning is flawed as 1 organic species could also dominate/destroy all other organic species. Look at the Krogan or the Rachni, without the Genophage their Rebellion might have caused them to take over the galaxy and kill all asari/humans/turians/salarians, etc.

So far in the ME universe, we have seen far more aggressive organic species than synthetic. And the Reapers have added far more chaos to the galaxy than order.

Besides, the Rachni Queen basically says that the Reapers have soured their song, causing them to become hostile and nearly take over the galaxy, if it wasnt for the Krogan they most certainly would have.

So the Reapers culling/harvesting advanced organic species to 'protect' them is BS. If they are out to preserve and evolve advanced organic species, why use such horrific ways to kill them? Why taunt and dispise Shepard and co and see them as bacteria, or "too limited to comprihend" their motives?

They should have stuck with the Reapers doing it to build more of themselves and making themselves ever smarter by using the random nature of organics to add diversity to themselves and become stronger/smarter.

Just look at EDI, she can change herself if she wants, but it takes ORGANIC INPUT (Shepard) to do so. So the Reapers could be unable to think in new ways, needing the chaos of organics to reproduce without just copying themselves. Which they can use to find a solution to the dark energy problem that was forshadowed in ME1-2. After all, 2 minds are better than one, unless they are the exact same mind (Order), new random ideas and views can help (Chaos).

Just my 2 cents

[MadRabbit999]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

I cannot help but think most of these arguments -for- the logic is just people clutching at straws to try and make some sense of the ending because otherwise they'll feel devoid.

How disappointed I'm with the ending won't just destroy the fact that I've been trying to picture what might be the Reapers' motivation from the moment Sovereign uttered the following sentence:

We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

But that had already a giant plothole... if the reapers really did want to destroy everything, then why wait until someone goes into space before killing them?

[Armass81]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1cCgdgOEw

Did anyone watch this? The creators of the catalyst likely came to the same conclusions, and thus you have the reapers now. They follow the programming of the creators. Whether it is true or not doesnt matter. The creators deemed it true and it was done.

Modifié par Armass81, 19 mars 2012 - 01:33 .

[MadRabbit999]

Armass81 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1cCgdgOEw

Did anyone watch this? The creators of the catalyst likely came to the same conclusions, and thus you have the reapers now. They follow the programming of the creators. Whether it is true or not doesnt matter. The creators deemed it true and it was done.

The reapers assume that syntethics will always rebel toward their creators, but this has been proven wrong by shepard by making Quarians and Geth cooperate.

Also this logic is flawed, because even an organic could decide to take control of the whole galaxy and make "slaves" like the Protheans did, it wouldn't need to be syntetic..

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 19 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[sOUZUKEN]

Armass81 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1cCgdgOEw

Did anyone watch this? The creators of the catalyst likely came to the same conclusions, and thus you have the reapers now. They follow the programming of the creators. Whether it is true or not doesnt matter. The creators deemed it true and it was done.

The Catalyst said it was his conclusion. It would seem as an AI he came up with that hypothesis or after thousads of millenia of the same thing happening over and over, to be coincidence he finally put a stop to it.

Let's take it figuratively. Say, If every business was similar and acted in a similar function and always lost revenue because of the same things it could have controlled, wouldn't you as the CEO/Owner of the business put a stop to whats causing the decrease in profit? Even if it would cost you? In the long run your counter-measure would save more money than it had spent. Now Imagine the Catalyst was the CEO, and the galaxy was his business. I'd put a stop to it to, ya know?

[Silhouett3]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

But that had already a giant plothole... if the reapers really did want to destroy everything, then why wait until someone goes into space before killing them?

Please, they don't want to destroy organics, they want both diversity and order. And even the Illusive Man figured that out.

The flaw is labeling themselves "pinnacle of evolution". There can't be one specific stage like the pinnacle of evolution as in the nature of evolution there is always constant chaos. They have a solid point, but even that  bounds to be surpassed by the nature itself. 

[Midarc2nd]

The concept of a controlled and enforced obselescence of organic life is decent enough.
Life is permitted, but only within safe developmental parameters.
The chaotic element is supressed, though the cost is heavy, and the whole is maintained for another cycle.
Monsterous, but very machine like. (now that I think about it, that's exactly what was going on in matrix revolution.)

That, in itself, I have no issue with.
Infact, it seems in character with the mechanical nature of the foe.

It's all the other issues, plot holes/ignored plot points(highlighted elsewhere in better detail) and the lack of variety in the endings that leave this ending very unsatisfying.

Note:- satisfying does not have to mean good, happy, birds singing and all dancing ewok party ending.
I'd have been happy with an ending where the reapers actually won.

Hell, I was expecting towards the end to find myself having to choose between saving earth or the galaxy in some fashion.
Take the reapers down, but at the cost of the homeworld and most of humanity.
That kinda thing.

[MadRabbit999]

Silhouett3 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

But that had already a giant plothole... if the reapers really did want to destroy everything, then why wait until someone goes into space before killing them?

Please, they don't want to destroy organics, they want both diversity and order. And even the Illusive Man figured that out.
. 

"We are the end of everything"

Sounds to me the reapers do not like you... me.. or anything in existence...

Also the Illusive Man was indoctrinated and believed he was in control, while it was said, he wasn;t that is why he blows his brains out, whiel under indoctrination you beleive many things that aren't true.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 19 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[unluckynumber11]

I hear a lot that their logic is above our logic, and we can never understand, but that's just an excuse for lazy bad writing. As well why didn't the Reapers just kill all organics in the galaxy and not just the advanced ones, since it wouldn't matter in the end as they'll all be just as dead.