232 réponses à ce sujet

[Nekroso22]

I don't get the argument that the Reapers were kept consistent through the ending of Mass Effect 3.

They pulled a hard right turn from "We are the end of everything" and "Before us you are nothing" to "We have to kill you to protect you from yourselves." And no, that's not a simplification as some have argued, that was the exact argument presented in the game.

I just don't see it.

[NormanRawn]

This has been established for days, the fans understand the logic he comes up with, we are not stupid, we get it. The problem is we don't agree with the logic.

Modifié par NormanRawn, 19 mars 2012 - 03:39 .

[Vigil_N7]

The Geth only rebelled because the Quarians essentially gave them no choice. Even then, Shepard managed to give the Geth free will and build an alliance between the quarians and the geth.

Essentially, the genophage cure issue mirrors that of the catalyst's one. Sure, the Krogan MAY expand too quickly and too vastly again, however without that cure, the Krogan have NO hope, and will face certain destruction.

Its the same with the cycle, sure, organics MAY create synthetics that rise up and rebel, but if the reapers continue the cycle, advanced organics have NO hope anyway. As Shepard said, without hope, we may as well be machines.

At that point, Shepard should've told the catalyst to ****** off, but alas we had no option.

[savionen]

Bad logic.

No synthetic would kill every organic from the Elcor to plants and bacteria. There's no logical reason for it. There's no evidence shown in the trilogy either.

The Reapers were arrogant-evil god-creatures. They turn your friends into goo, they kill your family and turn them into monsters to frighten you. They use mind control and make people go insane. Harbinger and Sovereign both taunt you constantly and tell you how pitiful you are.

Suddenly they're the protectors of the galaxy? That is incredibly stupid. That's something M. Night Shamalyan would write these days.

Modifié par savionen, 19 mars 2012 - 03:45 .

[mokponobi]

NormanRawn wrote...

This has been established for days, the fans understand the logic he comes up with, we are not stupid, we get it. The problem is we don't agree with the logic.

this

^^^
Bad logic.

No synthetic would kill every organic from the Elcor
to plants and bacteria. There's no logical reason for it. There's no
evidence shown in the trilogy either.

The Reapers were
arrogant-evil god-creatures. They turn your friends into goo, they kill
your family and turn them into monsters to frighten you. They use mind
control and make people go insane. Harbinger and Sovereign both taunt
you constantly and tell you how pitiful you are.

Suddenly they're the protectors of the galaxy? That is incredibly stupid.


and this

[dfstone]

I want to know what happened to the whole Dark Energy thing they set up in ME2. Its like they totally abandoned it in ME3.

[Wildhide]

Midarc2nd wrote...

The concept of a controlled and enforced obselescence of organic life is decent enough.
Life is permitted, but only within safe developmental parameters.
The chaotic element is supressed, though the cost is heavy, and the whole is maintained for another cycle.
Monsterous, but very machine like. (now that I think about it, that's exactly what was going on in matrix revolution.)

That, in itself, I have no issue with.
Infact, it seems in character with the mechanical nature of the foe.

It's all the other issues, plot holes/ignored plot points(highlighted elsewhere in better detail) and the lack of variety in the endings that leave this ending very unsatisfying.

Note:- satisfying does not have to mean good, happy, birds singing and all dancing ewok party ending.
I'd have been happy with an ending where the reapers actually won.

Hell, I was expecting towards the end to find myself having to choose between saving earth or the galaxy in some fashion.
Take the reapers down, but at the cost of the homeworld and most of humanity.
That kinda thing.

Same, that's the sort of bittersweet I expected.  I would have been content if the Crucible was just some massive bomb you could use to wipe up the majority of the Reaper fleet located at Earth, leaving the remaining reapers far outnumbered to be dealt with conventionally, but at a cost.  Even that would have been a better end for me than the slop they fed us.

[Tocquevillain]

unluckynumber11 wrote...

I hear a lot that their logic is above our logic, and we can never understand, but that's just an excuse for lazy bad writing. As well why didn't the Reapers just kill all organics in the galaxy and not just the advanced ones, since it wouldn't matter in the end as they'll all be just as dead.

Because they don't want to. They want to protect life. They do that by killing advanced species that could make machines that could kill all life in the galaxy.

Their logic is above ours, so far as most advanced species are interested in self preservation and would not understand or would resist the Reapers logic (were the Reapers to ask the quarians/turians/humans/asari etc, to all commit suicide so that the cycle could start again, would they? No, of course not.

That's all that that means.

[dfstone]

The Crucible thing was a little stupid.

"Hey everyone we found plans for 100,000 year old device on mars. We don't know what it does, we have no idea how to use it but lets build it! And ya, even though in like 100,000 years no one was able to finish it, we're going to do it in a couple of days. And yes even though you need your armies and stuff to defend your planets from the evil alien space Sea Monkeys, we're going ot divert everything to building it even though we have no frikken clue what it isl  Mmmkay!? "

Modifié par dfstone, 19 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[dfstone]

greengoron89 wrote...

Giving the Reapers a "purpose" at all was a mistake. These things were supposed to be "space Cthulhus" who had no beginning, no end, and a purpose incomprehensible by "rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh" - harbingers of our destruction, dead gods who still dream, things that alter reality by simply "being there" - and not mere tools of a foolish AI who, ironically, is "incapable of understanding."

Major slip-up giving them a purpose at all, especially the kind of "purpose" we got. All we needed to know is that they must be destroyed at any cost, before they destroy us.

That would have been scarier.  Making them these mindless killing machines that were impossible to comprehend. 

[Carlthestrange]

From what I can see, the Reapers are actually the biggest hypocrites in all creation.

[Ajensis]

NormanRawn wrote...

This has been established for days, the fans understand the logic he comes up with, we are not stupid, we get it.

Looking through this thread, I'm afraid it seems otherwise

A big thank you to Tocquevillain for presenting more or less exactly the arguments I would've put forth myself while I was away. Saved me a lot of typing! and in a well-spoken manner too, I might add.

I also sense that a lot of the replies not agreeing with the argument that there is logic behind the Reaper Cycles, are born out of disappointment with the ending. I just want to repeat that this isn't a thread dedicated to defend the ending, not even everything the Catalyst tells us, simply the part I've outlined in the opening post. Let's make sure we present our "case" about the disappointing ending without removing its apparent validity by saying things don't make sense when they arguably do. I'd hate for BioWare to disregard many valid points because we keep repeating a few that aren't.

Modifié par Ajensis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:02 .

[GoblinSapper]

shurryy wrote...

 

[SimKoning]

Tocquevillain wrote...

unluckynumber11 wrote...

I hear a lot that their logic is above our logic, and we can never understand, but that's just an excuse for lazy bad writing. As well why didn't the Reapers just kill all organics in the galaxy and not just the advanced ones, since it wouldn't matter in the end as they'll all be just as dead.

Because they don't want to. They want to protect life. They do that by killing advanced species that could make machines that could kill all life in the galaxy.

Their logic is above ours, so far as most advanced species are interested in self preservation and would not understand or would resist the Reapers logic (were the Reapers to ask the quarians/turians/humans/asari etc, to all commit suicide so that the cycle could start again, would they? No, of course not.

That's all that that means.

They want to protect life, so they destroy life, before it can evolve into more complex life that will destroy more primitive life… You don’t see the problem with that? It’s as absurd as us going to another planet to prevent protobionts from evolving into bacteria so that they don’t cause the extinction of their protobiont ancestors. It would be like an alien species coming here to stop placental mammals from causing the extinction of marsupials. Synthetic life, is still life. The only rational reason why something like the Reapers would do what they do would be to prevent life forms from evolving to a stage that would threaten THEM. That’s what the Inhibitors are like in Revelation Space, which is a novel that probably inspired the whole Reaper concept to begin with. 

Their logic is above ours? So to them a circle can be a square and two plus two equals eleventeen?  

Modifié par SimKoning, 19 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Ajensis]

^ It's not my intention to try and make the ending more acceptable. I don't want us to grow lazy and just shrug our shoulders and accept that we had a very unsatisfying conclusion to a trilogy we care so much for. I merely think we should focus our efforts on the truly bad points instead of mentioning anything we think is slightly off

GoblinSapper wrote...

shurryy wrote...
[Xzibit picture]

Yes, that's the picture I mentioned in the first post and which I'm arguing has no reason to exist. I'm not sure I understand why you're quoting it.

SimKoning: I don't think the Reapers are capable of feeling threatened in the same way as we do. The way the Catalyst presents it, they're merely tools, machines carrying out the will of their creators.

Modifié par Ajensis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[Zardoc]

shurryy wrote...

 

[Reever]

So, what about the Dark Energy? Messing with Dholen´s sun? Or did I miss something (yeah I know, it´s offtopic, but I had to think of this right now ).

[Myrmedus]

Their logic would've been 10x more supported and riveting if organics, not synthetics, were the problem. I would've much rather them talk about their experiences where organics hit the technological singularity but with their aggressive instincts they ended up wiping out entire galaxies. This would've made more sense and also produced a much more engaging dilemma for Shepard (the player) at the end. There is also alot to support this theme within the universe (Krogan anyone?)

This is slightly unrelated but: I also wish the Catalyst AI simply didn't exist and that the Reapers followed this purpose and plan of their own free will as individuals.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 19 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[The Angry One]

An impossibly ancient AI should not engage in circular logic. Period.
Circular logic which is disproved in the same narrative.

[Myrmedus]

BlueDemonX wrote...

So, what about the Dark Energy? Messing with Dholen´s sun? Or did I miss something (yeah I know, it´s offtopic, but I had to think of this right now ).

To be fair I think this was originally an allusion to the Dark Energy ending they had planned before writing ME3. However, it could also be explained simply as overuse of Mass Relays and Mass Effect tech (it creates large displacements of Dark Energy).

[SimKoning]

Myrmedus wrote...

Their logic would've been 10x more supported if organics, not synthetics, were the problem. I would've much rather them talk about their experiences where organics hit the technological singularity but with their aggressive instincts they ended up wiping out entire galaxies.

You should read Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds. It's a hard SF space opera written by a guy that has a PHD in astronomy and works for the ESA. 

[NormanRawn]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Sounds like the Reapers circular logic to me.

[markusprime]

GoblinSapper wrote...

shurryy wrote...

 

LMAO so hilarious and true. WTH was Bioware thinking. Yes its a little over simplfied but thats pretty much the jist of it. Must have been hitting that green ganga in Canada to much. 

Modifié par markusprime, 19 mars 2012 - 04:24 .