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Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing.


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#1
Xerkysz

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This is a giant wall of text, but well worth the read if you’re looking for an explanation or more evidence supporting the claims on Indoctrination “Theory”.

This is the definition of “Indoctrination” and it’s taken from the in-game Codex.

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain
through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.



As far as I see it, Indoc is the science side of things, and people who don't believe in it are the Christians.

You guys have beliefs and masses, with everyone saying the same thing (Grasping for Straws, Sound familiar?), we have results.

Results > Beliefs.


The idea is that indoctrination theory means you've never left Earth.

Harbinger has been trying since your first encounter in ME2, little by little he was getting to you “Nightmares of the Star Child :wizard:.”



He couldn't actually get you though, that's where knocking you unconscious comes in, he pretty much gets to take your brain to his rape dungeon.

After you get hit by Harbinger’s beam, you're knocked unconscious. Harbinger uses this to his advantage as it's easier to indoctrinate someone who's unconscious as they are not aware of what's going on. Your will power makes it hard enough for him to take control of you, which is why he couldn’t\\ do it in ME2.

The crucible has not yet been activated, what you see is part of the indoctrination, if you choose Control/Synth during the Star Child part :wizard:, you're letting the reapers live, they have deterred you from doing what you have been aiming to do since Mass Effect 1/2, destroy the reapers to bring peace to the galaxy.

If you select destroy, you're beating the reapers, this shows you’re strong and your will power is strong, you overcome indoctrination by not letting the reapers live in your dream, you live, earth lives, the geth live. You wake up in the rubble of London after being hit by the beam.



I have attached 13 screenies from the
killing of Kai Leng and your nightmare, to the Normandy crash, they can be
found here:
http://imgur.com/a/E4R1l#0



Details:

1. Nightmare with Shadow Figures and space child that no one else but shepard sees. Note the tree’s.

2. Prothean VI: "Security protocols have been overridden, I will comply."

This is in TIM's base, so why did he tell TIM about the Catalyst? When TIM was clearly indoctrinated? Yet if Shep is indoctrinated it won’t tell him? Make up your mind.

3. After being hit by the beam. Faded trees from your Nightmares, which aren't there before you get hit by the beam.

4. Anderson aboard the Citadel: "Followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place..."

5. Scars on my face when I'm full Paragon?

6. Anderson at the shifting walls, which is on the other side of the door. First he's behind you now he's in front of you?  :blink:

7. The control panel is in view as soon as you pop your head over the top of the ramp. Where's Anderson?

8. Human writing on the Citadel?

9 & 10. Clearly only one way into this place.
11. Citadel still in full effect? Even when The Reapers have taken control? :o

12. Random circle pops out of the ground?

13. Ohhey Javik, I heard you were on my squad during the bolt for the beam.
Nice Teleports brah.


An app that was released with production details:
The ending is a mess because the following was cut out (as late as Nov '11):
- Reapers indoctrinating and assuming control of Shepard during this
speech/battle

This was removed because even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting
with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because
the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue
choices).

Sauce: http://www.escapistm...pp-for-2-99-WTF

Just because they removed the part from the game,
DOES NOT, make it non-existent.

It's still there, there's a tonne of evidence supporting the claims, as seen above.


I’d like to thank a few people for helping out with some parts of this.

Rusty0918- Has done me a favour and explained
why you get 2 more options with higher EMS.

"Yes - because the Reapers know that you don't have a chance in defeating them with low EMS. Higher EMS, they're going to put the effort in to indoctrinating you. That's why they give you the other choices with higher EMS, they distort you from choosing the Destroy option. This is why TIM's was coloured Paragon, and Andersons Renegade, to create confusion.”

I’d like to add to this a segment from the Codex “Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.”

Savionen- “The VI didn't detect indoctrination. - Javik states that indoctrination can't be seen by VI's until very late.”

FirstBlood XL- So far the best defence against Indoc Theory is that BioWare ended the game in a mess of sloppy/disgraceful writing/editing.

I’d like to add: The best defense against it, and the best offense against the company’s
future, they would be stupid to do this.



Match up what you read about the reaper indoctrination with the pictures.


You girls are trying to lay the blame for the endings on us instead of BioWare.

There are no holes in indoctrination theory.  Keep trying

Watch this, thanks to CHT87




Good day.

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 02:53 .


#2
Liquoid

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You might wanna clean up the formatting.

Edit: IMO we shouldn't refer to Indoctrination Theory as it is. It should be called Indoctrination Interpretation.

Modifié par Liquoid, 19 mars 2012 - 10:29 .


#3
Captain Shakespeare

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Yeah, the amount of empty space is off-putting.

#4
Xerkysz

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Yeah, stupid Copy Pasta :< haha

#5
Captain Shakespeare

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The new formatting is vastly superior, thanks OP.

#6
CavScout

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You might want to define "proof" first.

#7
Xerkysz

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Captain Shakespeare wrote...

The new formatting is vastly superior, thanks OP.


You're welcome sir.

#8
Morrden

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Holy formatting batman.

The fact of the matter is that Indoctrination Theory and all of its 'evidence' is based upon top-down perception. You have a concept in your mind already (the ending wasn't real, Bioware wouldn't do this to us) and then you actively search for things to back up this preconceived notion. Any evidence that could be put forward for this theory is either stretched incredibly thin, relies on a lot of faith, or could be interpreted/explained in many other ways.

The only marginally concrete basis for this theory is the ending teaser with Shepard breathing in London, and I'll give anyone ten to one odds on that just being the result of someone at Bioware going 'wait, we need to have a secret ending where Shepard lives so this isn't a total downer, show him waking up in London since the Citadel sort of exploded'.

Incompetence is always more likely than conspiracy, especially when you're dealing with a situation that has so many last minute revisions (like the ending).

#9
Xerkysz

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CavScout wrote...

You might want to define "proof" first.


Done, no longer editing it! xP haha
Dinner time anyway.

#10
Captain Shakespeare

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There's some stuff in there I haven't seen before. While the "proof" is shaky, it certainly helps to provide more examples of how IT is infinitely more sensible than the ending we appear to have been given.

Modifié par Captain Shakespeare, 19 mars 2012 - 10:23 .


#11
CavScout

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Xerkysz wrote...

CavScout wrote...

You might want to define "proof" first.


Done, no longer editing it! xP haha
Dinner time anyway.

It ain't about editing. It's about supposition you are passing off as "proof".

#12
Tsantilas

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Oh god not this again...

#13
Xerkysz

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Along the lines to lighten the mood, may make some people sad. Made this for my timeline because I'm a nerd.
RIP Mordin <3
Image IPB

#14
Liquoid

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Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...


Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.

#15
Xerkysz

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Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...


Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

#16
CavScout

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Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...


Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L


One does not prove a negative. How about your "prove" your theory instead of demanding it be disproved?

#17
EsterCloat

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Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...


Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.

#18
Liquoid

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Xerkysz wrote...


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L


ditto

#19
wtbusername

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Liquoid wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L


ditto


Thirded.

If that's a word.

#20
Morrden

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1. Nightmare with Shadow Figures and space child that no one else but shepard sees. Note the tree’s.

Not sure what the evidence is here. I interpreted this as Shepard finally showing cracks in the stoic facade. Nightmares have never been listed as a symptom of indoctrination.

2. Prothean VI: "Security protocols have been overridden, I will comply."

This is in TIM's base, so why did he tell TIM about the Catalyst? When TIM was clearly indoctrinated? Yet if Shep is indoctrinated it won’t tell him? Make up your mind.

The VI told TIM about the catalyst because, as he just said in your quote, his security protocols were overwritten. He says nothing about detecting indoctrinated presences earlier on Thessia until Kai Leng shows up with Reaper implants. If Shepard has been being indoctrinated the whole time, why wouldn't the VI respond the same way to him?

3. After being hit by the beam. Faded trees from your Nightmares, which aren't there before you get hit by the beam.

The trees are there before he gets hit by the beam. Look at the far right in this video. http://www.youtube.c...EM5K0g#t=26m52s

4. Anderson aboard the Citadel: "Followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place..."

Yeah, he mentions he came out in a different place, probably ahead of you. That's why he gets there first. No teleport magic required.

5. Scars on my face when I'm full Paragon?

...what? First, there aren't any, second, that means indoctrination?

6. Anderson at the shifting walls, which is on the other side of the door. First he's behind you now he's in front of you?

Yeah, because obviously that is the only wall in the Citadel capable of shifting.

7. The control panel is in view as soon as you pop your head over the top of the ramp. Where's Anderson?

Standing in front of it.

8. Human writing on the Citadel?

Firstly it might not even be writing, could just be symbols people are interpreting as letters or numbers. Secondly, even if they were letters, the codex mentions races adding and modifying the citadel in their own ways. Is it impossible to imagine humans contributed to this as well?

9 & 10. Clearly only one way into this place.

Anderson mentions walls shifting and such, so it's not inconceivable for there to be several ways in that close/open up because of this.

11. Citadel still in full effect? Even when The Reapers have taken control?

Why not, most of it's automated.

12. Random circle pops out of the ground?

What?

13. Ohhey Javik, I heard you were on my squad during the bolt for the beam.
Nice Teleports brah.

Again, bad writing and plotholes is far more likely an explanation than grand conspiracy. The end cutscene with the Normandy crashlanding just codes for your LI and most common squad members to exit the Normandy, with no regard for whether they were on the final charge or not.

Modifié par Morrden, 19 mars 2012 - 10:37 .


#21
Liquoid

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EsterCloat wrote...
Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.


I haven't heard a single coherent argument against the Indoctrination intepretation. Given the fact that BioWare still didn't officially discuss the significance of the ending cutscene and why it's soo "off", every interpretation is still up for debate. Only instead of debate, there's flaming and general poo-slingin'.

#22
CavScout

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wtbusername wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L


ditto


Thirded.

If that's a word.


Is this how you guys admit that you can't actually support, with proof, your theory claims and so instead petulantly demand it be disproven?

Modifié par CavScout, 19 mars 2012 - 10:36 .


#23
EsterCloat

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Liquoid wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...
Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.


I haven't heard a single coherent argument against the Indoctrination intepretation. Given the fact that BioWare still didn't officially discuss the significance of the ending cutscene and why it's soo "off", every interpretation is still up for debate. Only instead of debate, there's flaming and general poo-slingin'.

Morrden made two very well written posts regarding the theory.

#24
Xerkysz

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EsterCloat wrote...
Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.


A dev coming out and saying what they have planned for the April DLC release, which they won't do until more people have experienced the game.

#25
Captain Shakespeare

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Let's clarify. No one is right, no one is wrong. Not yet, at least. This is a textbook case of Shrodinger's cat. Neither side has adequate proof to state with certainty that they are correct. So until an official statement is made, you're arguing a moot point.

Modifié par Captain Shakespeare, 19 mars 2012 - 10:39 .