758 réponses à ce sujet

[Rusty0918]

tobito113 wrote...

Indoc theory works, its good but the developers responses CLEARLY shows that they dont know what do to.

If indoc was real why didnt they announce the plans for the ending dlc yet? What about the recent leak where someone "mispoke" that there was no plans for endings.

INDOC MAKES SENSE BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO ADD A SCENE WHERE WE WOULD BE CONTROLED BY A REAPER, BUT THAT IDEA WAS REMOVED!!!!

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

No, but people like you, the way you speak and the way you word it.
There's a difference between being an argumentitive ass and discussing stuff, if you didn't know.

[Humakt83]

My humble attempt at unity http://social.biowar...8067/1#10248528

[Tsantilas]

So use of sarcasm and making fun of arguments that you find stupid after trying every "mature" form of conversation is considered trolling now? Cool story bro. Oh am I trolling as well now?

[Grusome11]

Alraiis wrote...

I like Indoctrination Theory. It's a nice way to interpret a poorly-written ending. Making lemonade and all that.

But would bet money that Bioware never intended it. I have two primary reasons:

snip

2. If Indoctrination was intended, the writers would have resolved it in-game.
Let's assume for the moment that Bioware has it all planned. Indoctrination Theory is 100% correct and all the clues were planted by Bioware deliberately. Why would they obfuscate this twist in the finished product? Take a look at what's going on right now. A significant number of players are dissatisfied. Some have sworn off Bioware products entirely. If Shepard's indoctrination played out in the game, then the story continued with Shepard getting up, seeing it through, and the races of the galaxy achieving victory, all of that would have been avoided. The writers would look clever and the players would be happy.

The Indoctrination Theory, as presented, would be terrible storytelling. It would be like Frodo almost dying on the way to Mount Doom, but then he wakes up, still miles away from his goal... and that's the end. No resolution. No ending. Only "Boy, that was a close call. But our hero is okay!" Shepard's mental state has nothing whatsoever to do with how the battle is going, and if the colorful explosions were all in Shepard's head, then the Reapers have not been stopped at all.

The in-game ending, if you take it at face value, is more of an ending than Indoctrination Theory. All Indoctrination Theory does is leave a door open that was closed so painfully by the endings as presented.

What's more likely? Given that all we have on either side are interpretations and guesses, what's the simpler solution? That Bioware didn't actually resolve the conflict, but only seeded clues, hidden for only a few players to find, about how the story would continue—clues that, once brought to light, would actually invalidate the choices of any player who chose Control or Synthesis and would also prove that their "ending" wasn't an end at all, going against all their claims? Or that, through short-sightedness, haste, or misjudgment, they simply wrote a sloppy and unsatisfying ending?

This is the weaknes point in indoctrination theory. Which is why, in order for it to work, the end, as presented, has to be a false ending.

However, I think your point about clues is incorrect. The clues are there for every player to see, regardless of their choices. Whether or not the player understands these clues is a different matter.

[MadRabbit999]

There are two clues coming from the artbook about this by the way:

In the first concept of the red corridor full of bodies where Shepard wakes up.. Anderson is right next to him and standing with a heavy armour and rifle... this means that perhaps originally the concept artist was told that they will be both together fighting....

Second clue is the scrapped large Illusive man monster which they said they wanted you do fight, (And I suspect this is where you would have sided with Anderson as your squadmate)... but due to artistic reasons they said it got scrapped... but I call BS on that... and say it is because they wanted to give a different ending to things (Theory of the Indoctrination or just the current endings we have).

[Safoulan]

Tsantilas wrote...

So use of sarcasm and making fun of arguments that you find stupid after trying every "mature" form of conversation is considered trolling now? Cool story bro. Oh am I trolling as well now?

I don't see any Caps, aweful grammar, or 'omg' texting expressions.

You're clean.


EDI: "...that was a joke."

[Grusome11]

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

This is a great point. The fact that BW has not said anything is not proof for or against IT. They could be keeping quiet for the above reasons, or they could have messed things up so bad, they do not yet know what to do. 

[Tsantilas]

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

The reason they don't announce the real ending DLC is because there is no real ending DLC... People are just in denial and wildly grasping for a glimpse of hope.  They've made it clear through their statements that there is/was no plan for any post ending dlc.  There's the app.  There are a million things screaming "they dun goofed", but people just don't want to be realistic about it.

I don't believe they intended the ending to be indoctrination.  I don't believe that they would intentionally risk destroying their franchise just to be like "haha, just kidding guys, that wasn't the end, here's your DLC".  In fact, if they do release a DLC that conforms to the indoctrination theory, it'll simply mean that all the fuss that the fans have made gave them an easy solution.  The Indoctrination theory is stupid.  It's not based on facts.  It's not deep or good writing.

[Candidate 88766]

There has never been any indication in any of the three games that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

-Headaches or buzzing are the initial indications (Shepard never complains of these)
-Feelings of being watched (again, Shepard never experiences this)
-Hallucinations of ghostly presences (the dream sequences are not indicitive of this - a hallucination takes place when you are conscious, not when you are asleep)
-Alien voices in your mind (note that this occurs when the Reapers have gained control of the victim's body, which is the final stage of indoctrination)

There is no indication that indoctranation, even at the highest levels, leads to the full on hallucinations Shepard supposedly experiences at the end.


Most of the evidence for this theory, and some of it is rather compelling if you ignore the obvious (that Bioware would never release ME3 without its true ending for the sake of 'tricking' the fans for a few weeks), simply points to the end sequences being some kind of dream. They aren't proof of indoctrination  - that isn't how indoctrination works - they simply imply that Shepard is dreaming or imagining it. And I don't imagine Bioware would end this story showing Shepard dreaming about defeating the Reapers instead of showing Shepard actually defeating the Reapers.

[Safoulan]

Tsantilas wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

The reason they don't announce the real ending DLC is because there is no real ending DLC... People are just in denial and wildly grasping for a glimpse of hope.  They've made it clear through their statements that there is/was no plan for any post ending dlc.  There's the app.  There are a million things screaming "they dun goofed", but people just don't want to be realistic about it.

I don't believe they intended the ending to be indoctrination.  I don't believe that they would intentionally risk destroying their franchise just to be like "haha, just kidding guys, that wasn't the end, here's your DLC".  In fact, if they do release a DLC that conforms to the indoctrination theory, it'll simply mean that all the fuss that the fans have made gave them an easy solution.  The Indoctrination theory is stupid.  It's not based on facts.  It's not deep or good writing.

[/my objectivity]

Realists are so cute!
Come on now... hug and make nice with the Dreamers.
You know you want to.
We need you guys too 'ya know.

Without you we'd never stay grounded.
And without us you'd never get off the ground.

[MadRabbit999]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There has never been any indication in any of the three games that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

-Headaches or buzzing are the initial indications (Shepard never complains of these)
-Feelings of being watched (again, Shepard never experiences this)
-Hallucinations of ghostly presences (the dream sequences are not indicitive of this - a hallucination takes place when you are conscious, not when you are asleep)
-Alien voices in your mind (note that this occurs when the Reapers have gained control of the victim's body, which is the final stage of indoctrination)

There is no indication that indoctranation, even at the highest levels, leads to the full on hallucinations Shepard supposedly experiences at the end.


Most of the evidence for this theory, and some of it is rather compelling if you ignore the obvious (that Bioware would never release ME3 without its true ending for the sake of 'tricking' the fans for a few weeks), simply points to the end sequences being some kind of dream. They aren't proof of indoctrination  - that isn't how indoctrination works - they simply imply that Shepard is dreaming or imagining it. And I don't imagine Bioware would end this story showing Shepard dreaming about defeating the Reapers instead of showing Shepard actually defeating the Reapers.

Whatch that video linked earlier on, wether you beleive in indoctrination or not.. it answers all the "points you have contradicted here".

[Rusty0918]

Tsantilas wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

The reason they don't announce the real ending DLC is because there is no real ending DLC... People are just in denial and wildly grasping for a glimpse of hope.  They've made it clear through their statements that there is/was no plan for any post ending dlc.  There's the app.  There are a million things screaming "they dun goofed", but people just don't want to be realistic about it.

I don't believe they intended the ending to be indoctrination.  I don't believe that they would intentionally risk destroying their franchise just to be like "haha, just kidding guys, that wasn't the end, here's your DLC".  In fact, if they do release a DLC that conforms to the indoctrination theory, it'll simply mean that all the fuss that the fans have made gave them an easy solution.  The Indoctrination theory is stupid.  It's not based on facts.  It's not deep or good writing.

The indoctrination theory is stupid? It actually makes more sense when you REALLY come come to think about it. Haven't you read anything about what I wrote? It's the only explanation that makes sense of the plot holes. As I said in the post you quote, Indoctrination is a CORNERSTONE on how the Reapers work. And if you have enough EMS, why shouldn't the Reapers try to coerce you away from the Destroy option and make the option look bad?

The clues for Indoc. are all there for Harbinger trying to indoctrinate you with that dream. He's using that image of the boy who blew up in the shuttle to guilt-trip you into making the wrong choice, hence of course the nightmares Shepard has when he/she keeps seeing him burn up when he/she catches up to him. These Reapers have had millions of years of practice.

Not to mention if you have a high enough EMS, if you choose the Destroy option, you get that scene where Shepard is breathing in the rubble.

The whole idea of Crucible being a test, and this, all ties in much more than you think. And I think the Indoc. theory is actually a sign of excellent writing. Now of course they need to release a closure DLC, which I bet they have up their sleeve, or something else AFTER the test.

[Jaze55]

The video twists everything to make it sound right.

Again, Shepard is no better according to the game then Saren or Benezia. Actually those 2 races live longer then humans and especially Benezia would have been able to block indoctrination a hell of a lot better then Shepard.

Sorry but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. It cant work on everyone one way and Shepard another just to fit your theory.

[Candidate 88766]

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

Given the fan and indeed media reaction, Bioware wouldn't keep denying a 'real' ending DLC just for the sake of a few more tricked consumers.

For one, there's the obvious question of why they'd want to trick players in the first place. It does nothing other than annoy us. You don't end the concluding part of one of the most critically successful series, one of Bioware's most commercially successful to date, on a cliffhanger just for the sake of saying "fooled you" a few weeks later. there is just no logic behind that at all.

Secondly, given just how volcanic the reaction has been, Bioware would've said something concrete. As it is, we've had the vaguest of statements that hint only at DLC, not at the indoc theory. EA isn't stupid: after BF3 failed to be the CoD killer it predicted, it needs ME3 to be as successful as possible. Given the catastrophic backlash over Origin, the day 1 DLC and now the endings, if they had some secret 'make everything better' DLC hidden up their sleeves they'd have said something about it by now. You don't get yourself into a mess this big just for the sake of 'tricking' a few more players.

Despite the somewhat compelling evidence ther eis for the theory (not enough for me to believe it, given the holes with it, but still enough to make it very interesting) common sense is enough to disprove it. Bioware wouldn't release ME3 without ending the ME story. You don't go to all that trouble, and put up with all this backlash, just so you can basically say April Fools at the end of it,

[Candidate 88766]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There has never been any indication in any of the three games that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

-Headaches or buzzing are the initial indications (Shepard never complains of these)
-Feelings of being watched (again, Shepard never experiences this)
-Hallucinations of ghostly presences (the dream sequences are not indicitive of this - a hallucination takes place when you are conscious, not when you are asleep)
-Alien voices in your mind (note that this occurs when the Reapers have gained control of the victim's body, which is the final stage of indoctrination)

There is no indication that indoctranation, even at the highest levels, leads to the full on hallucinations Shepard supposedly experiences at the end.


Most of the evidence for this theory, and some of it is rather compelling if you ignore the obvious (that Bioware would never release ME3 without its true ending for the sake of 'tricking' the fans for a few weeks), simply points to the end sequences being some kind of dream. They aren't proof of indoctrination  - that isn't how indoctrination works - they simply imply that Shepard is dreaming or imagining it. And I don't imagine Bioware would end this story showing Shepard dreaming about defeating the Reapers instead of showing Shepard actually defeating the Reapers.

Whatch that video linked earlier on, wether you beleive in indoctrination or not.. it answers all the "points you have contradicted here".

I did, and there is no 'evidence' that Shepard was ever under the influence of indoctrination.

Sure, there are times when he is near Reaper technology where he could have become indoctrinated, but nothing ever comes of it. Bioware never communicates to the player in any way that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

And the video does nothing to explain why indoctrination can suddenly cause full hallucinations.

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

The video twists everything to make it sound right.

Again, Shepard is no better according to the game then Saren or Benezia. Actually those 2 races live longer then humans and especially Benezia would have been able to block indoctrination a hell of a lot better then Shepard.

Sorry but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. It cant work on everyone one way and Shepard another just to fit your theory.

Sheppard is better by definition. He is the HERO, no one else.

[Jaze55]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There has never been any indication in any of the three games that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

-Headaches or buzzing are the initial indications (Shepard never complains of these)
-Feelings of being watched (again, Shepard never experiences this)
-Hallucinations of ghostly presences (the dream sequences are not indicitive of this - a hallucination takes place when you are conscious, not when you are asleep)
-Alien voices in your mind (note that this occurs when the Reapers have gained control of the victim's body, which is the final stage of indoctrination)

There is no indication that indoctranation, even at the highest levels, leads to the full on hallucinations Shepard supposedly experiences at the end.


Most of the evidence for this theory, and some of it is rather compelling if you ignore the obvious (that Bioware would never release ME3 without its true ending for the sake of 'tricking' the fans for a few weeks), simply points to the end sequences being some kind of dream. They aren't proof of indoctrination  - that isn't how indoctrination works - they simply imply that Shepard is dreaming or imagining it. And I don't imagine Bioware would end this story showing Shepard dreaming about defeating the Reapers instead of showing Shepard actually defeating the Reapers.

Whatch that video linked earlier on, wether you beleive in indoctrination or not.. it answers all the "points you have contradicted here".

I did, and there is no 'evidence' that Shepard was ever under the influence of indoctrination.

Sure, there are times when he is near Reaper technology where he could have become indoctrinated, but nothing ever comes of it. Bioware never communicates to the player in any way that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

And the video does nothing to explain why indoctrination can suddenly cause full hallucinations.

That's the point i've been trying to make. If he was indoctrinated at any point in time he would have been sublty convinced the reapers are good. Just like Saren, just like Benezia, just like Dr Rho lady, just like TIM .... 

And I already explained the dreams, start a new game and look at the Psycological Profile. States it right there why he is having dreams.

[MadRabbit999]

There is 1 major flaw (I think) With the indoctrination theory.. but that's the only one:

If the Catalyst was lying, and was trying to push Shepard toward Control choice or Synthesis, then to make it easier, he could have said that the Mass Relays would be destroyed only in the case he choose to destroy all synthetics... so that Shepard's choice would have seemed more obvious to go toward blue or green.

[Rob_K1]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct, only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification and for the game to ship? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind (I believe). Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Edit: I really wish the forum wouldn't mess up the formatting.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[Jaze55]

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

The video twists everything to make it sound right.

Again, Shepard is no better according to the game then Saren or Benezia. Actually those 2 races live longer then humans and especially Benezia would have been able to block indoctrination a hell of a lot better then Shepard.

Sorry but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. It cant work on everyone one way and Shepard another just to fit your theory.

Sheppard is better by definition. He is the HERO, no one else.

No Shepard is a normal human being. Not super human. Saying he is the "hero" means nothing. He is just a human that has to follow the same rules as every other human in the game. An Asari, who was a matriach and apparantly very powerful and old was not able to stop being indoctrinated. Shepard is NOT as strong willed as an Asari matriach that has lived close to 1000 years. Pretty sure a 1000 y/o has had more time to strengthen their will and mind then a 30-40 y/o (how old IS Shep anyway?) normal human being. 

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind. Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings
of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to
amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the
resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Right and thats exactly how I always wanted Shepards fate to turn out. Him being a mindless Husk, I am sure his LI will just LOVE that. 

[MadRabbit999]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind. Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings
of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to
amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the
resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Right and thats exactly how I always wanted Shepards fate to turn out. Him being a mindless Husk, I am sure his LI will just LOVE that. 

The indoctrination theory is based on the idea  that Shepard is fighting it.. not that he has become a husk... you people should read both view points before jumping at eachother's throats.

[Safoulan]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Shepard is no better according to the game then Saren or Benezia. Actually those 2 races live longer then humans and especially Benezia would have been able to block indoctrination a hell of a lot better then Shepard.

Sorry but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. It cant work on everyone one way and Shepard another just to fit your theory.

Well said!

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Given the fan and indeed media reaction, Bioware wouldn't keep denying a 'real' ending DLC just for the sake of a few more tricked consumers.
For one, there's the obvious question of why they'd want to trick players in the first place. It does nothing other than annoy us. You don't end the concluding part of one of the most critically successful series, one of Bioware's most commercially successful to date, on a cliffhanger just for the sake of saying "fooled you" a few weeks later. there is just no logic behind that at all.
Secondly, given just how volcanic the reaction has been, Bioware would've said something concrete. As it is, we've had the vaguest of statements that hint only at DLC, not at the indoc theory. EA isn't stupid: after BF3 failed to be the CoD killer it predicted, it needs ME3 to be as successful as possible. Given the catastrophic backlash over Origin, the day 1 DLC and now the endings, if they had some secret 'make everything better' DLC hidden up their sleeves they'd have said something about it by now. You don't get yourself into a mess this big just for the sake of 'tricking' a few more players.
Despite the somewhat compelling evidence ther eis for the theory (not enough for me to believe it, given the holes with it, but still enough to make it very interesting) common sense is enough to disprove it. Bioware wouldn't release ME3 without ending the ME story. You don't go to all that trouble, and put up with all this backlash, just so you can basically say April Fools at the end of it,

Granted, I'm quite the Dreamer.
But, if I had to choose one gaming company to do something like Indoc Theory to their finale... one franchise that's known for pushing the envelope with each new release... It's this one. BioWare. ME.

I agree completely that it's illogical.
But based on quotes from Casey & the creative team, it would seem they bounced around a lot of different radical ideas for the ending.
Casey stated that, essentially, he (I'd guess by extension they) wanted the Ending of ME3 to be talked about, to be different and unexpected.
It's easy to argue that they already achieved that.

But the largest piece of proof that Indoc is correct, to me, is this single thing:

The rest of ME3 (to be a bit generalized & vague) is near perfect.
They improved upon so many game mechanics.
The writing, conversation systems, combat, goal oriented accumulation was all supurb!
It is only the ending, specifically, the moment after Harbinger 'beams' Shep, that the standard dropped so low.

I personally do not believe the Creative Team at BioWare could have gotten the rest of ME3 (more than most of the game) so right... and have intended an ending so very wrong!

[Grusome11]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

Given the fan and indeed media reaction, Bioware wouldn't keep denying a 'real' ending DLC just for the sake of a few more tricked consumers.

For one, there's the obvious question of why they'd want to trick players in the first place. It does nothing other than annoy us. You don't end the concluding part of one of the most critically successful series, one of Bioware's most commercially successful to date, on a cliffhanger just for the sake of saying "fooled you" a few weeks later. there is just no logic behind that at all.

Secondly, given just how volcanic the reaction has been, Bioware would've said something concrete. As it is, we've had the vaguest of statements that hint only at DLC, not at the indoc theory. EA isn't stupid: after BF3 failed to be the CoD killer it predicted, it needs ME3 to be as successful as possible. Given the catastrophic backlash over Origin, the day 1 DLC and now the endings, if they had some secret 'make everything better' DLC hidden up their sleeves they'd have said something about it by now. You don't get yourself into a mess this big just for the sake of 'tricking' a few more players.

Despite the somewhat compelling evidence ther eis for the theory (not enough for me to believe it, given the holes with it, but still enough to make it very interesting) common sense is enough to disprove it. Bioware wouldn't release ME3 without ending the ME story. You don't go to all that trouble, and put up with all this backlash, just so you can basically say April Fools at the end of it,

Again. I think this is the biggest point against Indoc Theory. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective, at least as far as I can see.

Cutting the ending out of your much anticipated, triple A game to trick the fan, that is something never done before. Could it be done? Sure, and if I was sitting in a BW boardroom, I would be all for it. But the decision to do that would not be something that Casey Hudson could make by himself. It would have to go to the corporate top. I cannot see them taking a risk like this.

However, I could be wrong. If they did do this, it is an epic marketting plot and they have bigger balls than I gave them credit for.