758 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind. Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Edit: I really wish the forum wouldn't mess up the formatting.

Yes, it was taken out.  They planned to do it, which is why some stuff is in the game, but they took it out, so it is no longer part of the game.

Thanks for proving my point. 

[Kanon777]

Rusty0918 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

Indoc theory works, its good but the developers responses CLEARLY shows that they dont know what do to.

If indoc was real why didnt they announce the plans for the ending dlc yet? What about the recent leak where someone "mispoke" that there was no plans for endings.

INDOC MAKES SENSE BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO ADD A SCENE WHERE WE WOULD BE CONTROLED BY A REAPER, BUT THAT IDEA WAS REMOVED!!!!

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

What about the recent facebook message that say THERE IS NO PLAN TO CHANGE THE ENDING YET? They imediately deleted it because they knew people would get pissed of at the truth...

[Ultra Prism]

But then why in the indoctrination theory, shepard see's destruction of mass relays

[Jaze55]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind. Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings
of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to
amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the
resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Right and thats exactly how I always wanted Shepards fate to turn out. Him being a mindless Husk, I am sure his LI will just LOVE that. 

The indoctrination theory is based on the idea  that Shepard is fighting it.. not that he has become a husk... you people should read both view points before jumping at eachother's throats.

And no one else in the history of the game has been able to stop the indoc process for more then a few minutes to kill themselves. Again, the theory leaves Shepard in a worse fate then what we got. Shepard is not superman. If indoctrination effect EVERYONE ELSE one way then it has to effect Shep the same way, unless Shepard is super human.


EDIT- explain to me what makes Shepard able to defeat indoc when no one else, in the history of the game, has been able to?

Modifié par MassEffected555, 19 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[Candidate 88766]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
I did, and there is no 'evidence' that Shepard was ever under the influence of indoctrination.

Sure, there are times when he is near Reaper technology where he could have become indoctrinated, but nothing ever comes of it. Bioware never communicates to the player in any way that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

And the video does nothing to explain why indoctrination can suddenly cause full hallucinations.

That's the point i've been trying to make. If he was indoctrinated at any point in time he would have been sublty convinced the reapers are good. Just like Saren, just like Benezia, just like Dr Rho lady, just like TIM .... 

And I already explained the dreams, start a new game and look at the Psycological Profile. States it right there why he is having dreams.

Wait, now I'm confused - are we on the same side of the argument?

I'm arguing that the theory is flawed. I'm not to lure you into an argument or anything, but I can't work out if we're arguing the same thing 

[Jaze55]

Also, let's pretend you are 100% correct and we get that theory as the ending. What happens next? Shep kills himself? He becomes a husk? He goes crazy and kills everyone or they kill him since he went crazy? Or maybe the lock him up in a psych ward for the rest of his life?

Yeah I would rather the end stayed then have Shep suffer or have to kill himself or maybe have one of our team members kill him. Because he IS going to go crazy like every single other person in the game that has ever been indoctrinated.

[Rob_K1]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

WAIT!!! HAHAHAH Ok so there is no oxygen on ships? Yet Shepard is breathing on the ship ALL the time with no mask. OK so then it is obviously OK that he could be breathing with no mask when talkiing to the Catalyst then.

Thats solved. 

Indoctrination "Theory" proof. Open for Discussion, not arguing

Caution: Please do not feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

Oh so anyone that argues with logic against your precious theory is a troll. OK then if you say so. 

I'm going to state this one last time only:

(Quote from Final Hours)

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

(End of quote)

The above states that indoctrination was on the table at some point. It does not state whether the indoctrination theory was dropped completely or not. It only states that one particular sequence was dropped or one implemention of it. Again this in no way validates or invalidates whether the theory is correct only that BioWare intended it at some point.

I would like to draw your attention to November as well. I believe they mentioned it took 3 months to get certification? That would give them a month - two months to possibly change parts of the game if they had been working on it with that idea in mind. Not enough time for a drastic overhaul, I think? Again though, it doesn't prove the theory or disprove it.

However, on the point of indoctrination being slow, there is an argument to be had for the dreams of the child being a form of indoctrination taking hold. I'm not going to argue this though, as it is the cause of too much debate. I do however want to point this out in the codex entry on indoctrination for ME 3 (note the bolded and underlined bit):

‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings
of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences.
Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to
amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the
resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.’

So, rapid indoctrination is quite possible. It does not need to be a slow affair. However, as the codex entry states, it would leave the victim a mess after a few day or weeks.

Right and thats exactly how I always wanted Shepards fate to turn out. Him being a mindless Husk, I am sure his LI will just LOVE that. 

It does not matter what you want or what Shepard's LI would want for the sake of this argument. You seemed to think slow indoctrination was the only possible way of indoctrinating someone. It's not the case and so that is the only thing that matters.

And re-read what I said, instead of selectively reading what you wanted to when it comes to the sequence that was ripped out.

'And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. [u][b](This sequence was dropped
because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices)'

Again, it states that one particular sequence or implementation was dropped. It does not say the idea was abandoned completely. It does not validate or invalidate the indoctrination theory being real.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[Tsantilas]

So just to get this straight... the Indoctrination theory in a nutshell:

Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're saying it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS). Cool. So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

Are you seeing where I'm going with this...?

[Candidate 88766]

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

The reason why they don't announce the real ending DLC yet is because they want more people to figure it out, or more to finish the game. Keep in mind its only been out for two weeks. The cryptic remarks on Twitter about keeping the save files and saying that your decisions DO matter suggests something is coming.

I mean, why not Indoctrination, when you stop and think about it. Indoctrination is one of the BIGGEST weapons and one of the scariest things about the Reapers. Why shouldn't Shepard face this? Not to mention the idea of "Crucible" symbolizing a test.

Given the fan and indeed media reaction, Bioware wouldn't keep denying a 'real' ending DLC just for the sake of a few more tricked consumers.

For one, there's the obvious question of why they'd want to trick players in the first place. It does nothing other than annoy us. You don't end the concluding part of one of the most critically successful series, one of Bioware's most commercially successful to date, on a cliffhanger just for the sake of saying "fooled you" a few weeks later. there is just no logic behind that at all.

Secondly, given just how volcanic the reaction has been, Bioware would've said something concrete. As it is, we've had the vaguest of statements that hint only at DLC, not at the indoc theory. EA isn't stupid: after BF3 failed to be the CoD killer it predicted, it needs ME3 to be as successful as possible. Given the catastrophic backlash over Origin, the day 1 DLC and now the endings, if they had some secret 'make everything better' DLC hidden up their sleeves they'd have said something about it by now. You don't get yourself into a mess this big just for the sake of 'tricking' a few more players.

Despite the somewhat compelling evidence ther eis for the theory (not enough for me to believe it, given the holes with it, but still enough to make it very interesting) common sense is enough to disprove it. Bioware wouldn't release ME3 without ending the ME story. You don't go to all that trouble, and put up with all this backlash, just so you can basically say April Fools at the end of it,

Again. I think this is the biggest point against Indoc Theory. It just doesn't make sense from a business perspective, at least as far as I can see.

Cutting the ending out of your much anticipated, triple A game to trick the fan, that is something never done before. Could it be done? Sure, and if I was sitting in a BW boardroom, I would be all for it. But the decision to do that would not be something that Casey Hudson could make by himself. It would have to go to the corporate top. I cannot see them taking a risk like this.

However, I could be wrong. If they did do this, it is an epic marketting plot and they have bigger balls than I gave them credit for.

I don't think even EA would have the balls to do this.

After the public reaction to Origin, and given that BF3 failed to be as big as they predicted, they need a hit with ME3 and to do that they need to play it safe. They aren't going to try anything as risky as charging for the end of a story-based game. 

[Jaze55]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
I did, and there is no 'evidence' that Shepard was ever under the influence of indoctrination.

Sure, there are times when he is near Reaper technology where he could have become indoctrinated, but nothing ever comes of it. Bioware never communicates to the player in any way that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

And the video does nothing to explain why indoctrination can suddenly cause full hallucinations.

That's the point i've been trying to make. If he was indoctrinated at any point in time he would have been sublty convinced the reapers are good. Just like Saren, just like Benezia, just like Dr Rho lady, just like TIM .... 

And I already explained the dreams, start a new game and look at the Psycological Profile. States it right there why he is having dreams.

Wait, now I'm confused - are we on the same side of the argument?

I'm arguing that the theory is flawed. I'm not to lure you into an argument or anything, but I can't work out if we're arguing the same thing 

I am saying the theory would make Shepards ending worse. He would never be Shepard again if he gets indoctrinated because every single other person was never themselves again, unless for a few minutes to kill themselves, in the game. 

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

The video twists everything to make it sound right.

Again, Shepard is no better according to the game then Saren or Benezia. Actually those 2 races live longer then humans and especially Benezia would have been able to block indoctrination a hell of a lot better then Shepard.

Sorry but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. It cant work on everyone one way and Shepard another just to fit your theory.

Sheppard is better by definition. He is the HERO, no one else.

No Shepard is a normal human being. Not super human. Saying he is the "hero" means nothing. He is just a human that has to follow the same rules as every other human in the game. An Asari, who was a matriach and apparantly very powerful and old was not able to stop being indoctrinated. Shepard is NOT as strong willed as an Asari matriach that has lived close to 1000 years. Pretty sure a 1000 y/o has had more time to strengthen their will and mind then a 30-40 y/o (how old IS Shep anyway?) normal human being. 

No Sheppard is not a normal human being. He died, was brought back to life and saved the galaxy twice from the Reapers and is uniting the races to save it again. I don't know what your day is like, but that is not a normal day for me. 

While I agree that he does not have any "super powers", he is by definition, the HERO of the story and the most important factor in deciding the ending of the story.

The player is not playing Red shirted crewmany #3, they are playing the hero. If the Asri matriach was better then Sheppard, we would be playing her in the game.

[Safoulan]

MassEffected555 wrote...

EDIT- explain to me what makes Shepard able to defeat indoc when no one else, in the history of the game, has been able to?

You might be right.

But it is a game.
Game mechanics don't always retain full plausibility.
In most games, the person who gets the special treatment is the Hero.
The Main Char.

Shep already got his life/body back in ME2 as well as his Normandy back.
If that isn't special treatment that defies plausibility, I don't know what is. 

[MadRabbit999]

Ultra Prism wrote...

But then why in the indoctrination theory, shepard see's destruction of mass relays

The real question is why, when he chooses control, the citadel does not get destroyed, that too is a Mass Relay

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 19 mars 2012 - 04:49 .

[Candidate 88766]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Also, let's pretend you are 100% correct and we get that theory as the ending. What happens next? Shep kills himself? He becomes a husk? He goes crazy and kills everyone or they kill him since he went crazy? Or maybe the lock him up in a psych ward for the rest of his life?

Yeah I would rather the end stayed then have Shep suffer or have to kill himself or maybe have one of our team members kill him. Because he IS going to go crazy like every single other person in the game that has ever been indoctrinated.

Exactly.

Indoctrination is permanent. Even people as strong willed as TIm and Saren (and they weren't trying to fully indoctrinate Saren) could only break free by killing themslves.

I've already pointed out that there is no indication that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations, but even if we assume that it can then Shepard is going to have to be seriously indoctrinated for that to happena dn there is no coming back from that.

[Jaze55]

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

EDIT- explain to me what makes Shepard able to defeat indoc when no one else, in the history of the game, has been able to?

You might be right.

But it is a game.
Game mechanics don't always retain full plausibility.
In most games, the person who gets the special treatment is the Hero.
The Main Char.

Shep already got his life/body back in ME2 as well as his Normandy back.
If that isn't special treatment that defies plausibility, I don't know what is. 

Ok then space magic and him breathing in space with no helmet are plausable explanations as well for the hero of the game. 

[Candidate 88766]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I am saying the theory would make Shepards ending worse. He would never be Shepard again if he gets indoctrinated because every single other person was never themselves again, unless for a few minutes to kill themselves, in the game. 

I think we are in agreement then.

While there is evidence for the theory (if you ignore a lot of obvious stuff, then it actually becomes compelling), it isn't actually better than the real endings. I agree with you that indoctrination leads to worse outcomes, and that the Reapers win no matter what if the theory is true, which would be even worse than the endings we got.

[Jaze55]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Also, let's pretend you are 100% correct and we get that theory as the ending. What happens next? Shep kills himself? He becomes a husk? He goes crazy and kills everyone or they kill him since he went crazy? Or maybe the lock him up in a psych ward for the rest of his life?

Yeah I would rather the end stayed then have Shep suffer or have to kill himself or maybe have one of our team members kill him. Because he IS going to go crazy like every single other person in the game that has ever been indoctrinated.

Exactly.

Indoctrination is permanent. Even people as strong willed as TIm and Saren (and they weren't trying to fully indoctrinate Saren) could only break free by killing themslves.

I've already pointed out that there is no indication that indoctrination leads to full hallucinations, but even if we assume that it can then Shepard is going to have to be seriously indoctrinated for that to happena dn there is no coming back from that.

1 thing to point out, and I may be wrong BUT I was always under the assumption people just HEAR whispers, like the Salarien tells you on Virmire, you constantly hear whispers. I never read or heard idocn makes you see things. 

Now again, start a new game and make a new Shep and the last set of options you get to pick his Psycological Profile where you pick Numerous, Kaiden or Ashley and it tell you the toll of losing people is having a psycological effect on Shep, hence the nightmares.

[Rob_K1]

Tsantilas wrote...

So just to get this straight... the Indoctrination theory in a nutshell:

Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're saying it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS). Cool. So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

Are you seeing where I'm going with this...?

I'm personally not saying anything, other than pointing out that the developers at the very least considered it at one point and that rapid indoctrination is possible. Also, they were working on indoctrination in November. I do not know how the business works, but if they working on it in November, they'd have around two months to strip the theory out of the game? Depending on how heavily the indoctrination theory was worked into the game.

At any rate, I'm okay with the endings as they are. Not as happy as I could be but I won't kick up a fuss about them. So, I'm not someone that needs to go out and look for anything that makes the endings better. The theory simply makes the most sense.

As far as continuing the game if the theory is true (should you have chosen the non-destroy ending), I don't know how that'd work. Could just have you attempting to fight it off. But again, I have no clue how it would work. It is mere speculation.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 04:55 .

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Yes, it was taken out.  They planned to do it, which is why some stuff is in the game, but they took it out, so it is no longer part of the game.

Thanks for proving my point. 

They removed that segment from the game, this does not invalidate it from being true.

[Safoulan]

Tsantilas wrote...

So just to get this straight... the Indoctrination theory in a nutshell:

Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're saying it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS). Cool. So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

Are you seeing where I'm going with this...?

Indoc Theory proposes that what Shep was shown, including Joker's escape, the Relay's, & landing on a strange alien planet to make fembot love (EDI: "...that was a joke.") was meant to encourage Shep to give in to Indoc.
He had not been successfully Indoctrinated until he chose either Green or Blue.
That whole sequence was him fighting it or succumbing to it.

The things he was shown encourage him to think that he's won, even at great (realistic) cost.
The relay's are destroyed, some people survived, it wasn't pretty & he had to sacrifice himself to get it but... he has the victory.
Thus he would give up. Stop fighting. Stop resisting... and be brainwashed.

Also, a rumor was floating around about free D.L.C. in April.
The assumption that it'll cost something may not be correct. Time will tell.

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

So just to get this straight... the Indoctrination theory in a nutshell:

Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're saying it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS). Cool. So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

Are you seeing where I'm going with this...?

I'm personally not saying anything, other that pointing out that the developers at the very least considered it at one point and that rapid indoctrination is possible. Also, they were working on indoctrination in November. I do not know how the business works, but if they working on it in November, they'd have around two months to strip the theory out of the game? Depending on how heavily the indoctrination theory was worked into the game.

At any rate, I'm okay with the endings as they are. Not as happy as I could be but I won't kick up a fuss about them. So, I'm not someone that needs to go out and look for anything that makes the endings better. The theory simply makes the most sense.

As far as continuing the game if the theory is true (should you have chosen the non-destroy ending), I don't know how that'd work. Could just have you attempting to fight it off. But again, I have no clue how it would work. It is mere speculation.

No matter what, if the Indoc theory is true, Shepard winds up with a worse fate then the ending we got.

No thanks to your theory, I really don't want my Shep going insane, killing himself or turning into a husk. Those are the only possible outcome to your theory according to the games lore. 

Unless Shepard is superman. Or there is more :wizard::wizard:

[Fingertrip]

The progress of losing control was taken out, not the fact he was indoctrinated.

Jesus, people and their reading comprehension is .... depressing

[Safoulan]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

EDIT- explain to me what makes Shepard able to defeat indoc when no one else, in the history of the game, has been able to?

You might be right.

But it is a game.
Game mechanics don't always retain full plausibility.
In most games, the person who gets the special treatment is the Hero.
The Main Char.

Shep already got his life/body back in ME2 as well as his Normandy back.
If that isn't special treatment that defies plausibility, I don't know what is. 

Ok then space magic and him breathing in space with no helmet are plausable explanations as well for the hero of the game. 

Respectfully, I again say, Indoc Theory proposes that the ending sequence is in his head.

To Quote Morpheus: "You think that's air you're breathing now?"

[Jaze55]

Just to nip this in the bud - No the reapers being destroyed will not end the indoc. It states in ME2 that races that were indoctrinated just stood there and starved to death when the Reapers left.

Ok that's better. I want my Shep to starve to death because he is brain dead and doesn't know he is supposed to eat.

Yea I like all these terrible outcomes for Shep very much.

[Grusome11]

Tsantilas wrote...

So just to get this straight... the Indoctrination theory in a nutshell:

Shepard is indoctrinated some time after the Harbinger Beam. The whole rest of the game is in his head. I'll ignore the fact that nothing we experience from that point onwards other than the TIM sequence has any consistency to the codex entries on Indoctrination. You're saying it's all a test, and that the Destroy ending is the "good" ending that causes him to wake up in London (but only if you have 4000+ EMS). Cool. So every ending except Destroy with high EMS is a bad ending. So all the other endings are "you lose" and have nothing to do with choosing the ending for your Shepard. So that means that unless you shell out 10 bucks to Bioware for the so called "real ending" DLC, you will not experience the end of the Mass Effect franchise.

Are you seeing where I'm going with this...?

I would say that everything after the Harbinger Beam is an attempt to indoc Sheppard. Whether or not it succeeds is based on your choices with the starchild. The Destroy choice would mean that the reapers failed, Sheppard is not indoctrinated and wakes up in London, ready to carry on the fight to really defeat the Reapers. The other two endings, Sheppard accepts the lame assed, illogical reasons set out by the starchild and, therefore, is indoctrinated and becomes part of the Reapers.

The logic put forth by the child is so bad and the ending so full of holes, both plot and logic, that I cannot imagine a company that has put together 2.98 near perfect games would think that the present ending was a good finale to 8 years of hard work.

On the other side of the coin, people do stupid things. Look at the Star Wars Prequels.