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[Jaze55]

Safoulan wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

So basically the only way the Indoctrination Theory can result in a positive outcome, is if Bioware retcons everything we know about Indoctrination by releasing a (free? lol) DLC that causes you to Defeat Indoctrination with only 1 out of 16 possible endings, and miraculously you wake up in London and you are just fine and proceed to dragon punch the Reapers into oblivion.

I think we might have actually found a solid argument against the Indoctrination Theory in this thread. Rejoice! We're still ****ed!

If you believe BioWare's heart and soul belong to EA, your objectivity can become severely compromised.
Do you deny that they delivered a supurb game in ME3 up until the very end?
(I'm not asking whether the end ruined the entire game because I already know the answer to that)
Where's your faith?
They've already done things in the ME Trilogy that no other game has done before.
It has been entertaining, interesting, and a fun wild ride till the end of ME3.

There will be no dragon punching. Lol.
The Crucible has not been used if Indoc Theory is correct.
Therefore, the Reaper threat can still be battled and presumably won.

Again, if it is true then Shepards fate is going to be worse then what we got according to in game lore and mechanics.

[Candidate 88766]

Rusty0918 wrote...

GAH!!!! I see you folks fail to grasp the concept. Shepard is experiencing the Reapers TRYING to indoctrinate him in his dream after he's knocked out by Harbinger. Who is to say they can't access your mind in dreams? Heck, they've got tens of thousands of years of practice, at least. Shepard has a stronger will than others, so its harder to do it to him. The point is the reapers trick you into being indoctrinated with the other two endings, which the Xerkysz, the OP, has quoted, they're desperate. It also explains that scene with Shepard in the rubble if you choose the Destroy option with high enough EMS - it ONLY appears at this point. Another clue that there is more to come.

Which leads me to another suspcion of why the devs won't "change" the "endings." I still guess that the "true" endings haven't been released yet.

The whole dream sequence is a test of wills as you fight off indoctrination by the Reapers. I also hear that if you choose Control (and Synthesis) that afterwards, Shepard has something like "reaper eyes," which does conform even more to the indoctrination theory.

The indoc. theory makes the most sense. Seriously it does. Now, I do want them to release "closure," you know, the "proper" ending and whatever content they're withholding from us.

From the codex:

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. 

None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

[MadRabbit999]

There is also 1 unexplained point.... when Vegas says "Can you hear this buzzing noise?" This could be a sign that the Normandy has always carried a device that slowly indoctrinated Shepard over the months from serving under cerberus ME2 + ME 3.

Plenty of time to get his mind mildly influenced to me.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 19 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[JMA22TB]

Here's my endorsement:

Indoctrination Explanation makes sense out of a nonsensical sequence of events. It is elegant in explanation - elegant not meaning pretty or "fabulous" but simple and accurate. It takes nearly everything about the ending as is and appropriately fits it into a context like an Under Armor shirt.

Every little problem that doesn't make sense with the ending has an explanation through Indoctrination Explanation. We've been speculating for weeks now and nothing else anyone has mentioned comes close to how succinct and elegant this is.

Keep the momentum going guys we deserve a twist like Shepard fighting off indoctrination before achieving his destiny

[Tsantilas]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Shepard was hearing voices AND seeing ghostly images. So what if it was only in his nightmares? It seems that everytime he let his mind rest, he would have those visions. When he was vunerable.

... OR you know, since he only has those nightmares after someone significant dies?  Like after the kid dies? After Mordin Dies? After Thane dies?  PTSD!  The only time in the whole trilogy that Shepard (and us as players) ever experience something even closely resembling what has been established through the Narrative as Indoctrination, is during the TIM sequence.  TIM dies, blurry black outline thing goes away.  No more control.  That is the ONLY time.  Never during the whole 5 year experience, through all the contact he's had with reapers and reaper tech, has Shepard experienced anything even remotelly resembling Indoctrination other than that one scene.  Not so much as a "well maybe reapers aren't completely wrong".

[Rusty0918]

Xerkysz is right. There are more stages than one might believe. It's not that simple.

[Rob_K1]

Tsantilas wrote...

So basically the only way the Indoctrination Theory can result in a positive outcome, is if Bioware retcons everything we know about Indoctrination by releasing a (free? lol) DLC that causes you to Defeat Indoctrination with only 1 out of 16 possible endings, and miraculously you wake up in London and you are just fine and proceed to dragon punch the Reapers into oblivion.

I think we might have actually found a solid argument against the Indoctrination Theory in this thread. Rejoice! We're still ****ed!

Not exactly. I'm not commenting on the free DLC as I'm not sure what to make of that or even if the endings will be continued, but the only examples we have of people who've broken free of indoctrination are the ones who gave up the fight quite a while ago, or?

In other words, we haven't seen someone who has fully succumbed to it, but has fought it off? Saren and Benezia blew their brains out because they were already too far gone, I believe.

So, I'm not sure a retcon is needed. I've only ever played the games though. Regardless, that's been my interpretation and I'm not sure what informations exists out there regarding people who are fighting it.

A point people make though is quite valid. If the theory is correct, the game does not have a proper ending that certainly doesn't provide closure (as it pertains to other characters etc., rather than just Shepard).

[Xerkysz]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

There is also 1 unexplained point.... when Vegas says "Can you hear this buzzing noise?" This could be a sign that the Normandy has always carried a device that slowly indoctrinated Shepard over the months from serving under cerberus ME2 + ME 3.

IFF to get through the Omega 4 relay, anyone know if it was removed?

[Candidate 88766]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

You forgot to mention the Shepard is the only one who has seen and interacted with the kid... and the community of the indoctrinatio ntheory, believes him to be an illusion too, I said the kid was and illusion the moment shepard saw him die  (This was before knowing the endings) it was just a gut feeling, and it was weird that later on coincided with the theories of the indoctrination.

The child may be an illusion brought on by PTSD or something, but it doesn't prove the theory. Thats not how indoctrination works. 

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

The reason why Shepard isn't affected the same way as the others are is because his sole drive is to destroy/stop the Reapers. The Illusive Man wanted to ascend Humanity above the rest of the galaxy, Saren wanted the same for the Turians (with the addition of seeking revenge on humanity)...everyone else had some drive that could be twisted by the Reapers.

However, Shepard's goal doesn't really leave a lot of room to maneuver for the Reapers. Hence why, according to indoctrination theory, the only point where the Reapers could sway Shepard is through his final decision.

Benezias sole driving motivation was to stop Saren, yet she still got indoctrinated. So sorry doesn't work.

It even says in ME3 when you make Liara meet her father that Benizia was a wonderful person and only went to Saren to try to convince him of the error of his ways. 

[Vikali]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

Willpower does very much have an effect on preventing indoctrination. Why do you think TIM pumped Red Sand into Paul? Because he wouldn't let the Reapers into his head even though he was filled with the tech. And when the effects wore off, he was able to resist more.

Modifié par KitePolaris, 19 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

So basically the only way the Indoctrination Theory can result in a positive outcome, is if Bioware retcons everything we know about Indoctrination by releasing a (free? lol) DLC that causes you to Defeat Indoctrination with only 1 out of 16 possible endings, and miraculously you wake up in London and you are just fine and proceed to dragon punch the Reapers into oblivion.

I think we might have actually found a solid argument against the Indoctrination Theory in this thread. Rejoice! We're still ****ed!

Not exactly. I'm not commenting on the free DLC as I'm not sure what to make of that or even if the endings will be continued, but the only examples we have of people who've broken free of indoctrination are the ones who gave up the fight quite a while ago, or?

In other words, we haven't seen someone who has fully succumbed to it, but has fought it off? Saren and Benezia blew their brains out because they were already too far gone, I believe.

So, I'm not sure a retcon is needed. I've only ever played the games though. Regardless, that's been my interpretation and I'm not sure what informations exists out there regarding people who are fighting it.

A point people make though is quite valid. If the theory is correct, the game does not have a proper ending that certainly doesn't provide closure (as it pertains to other characters etc., rather than just Shepard).

No dude no. It clearly states the effect of indoc are permanant so Shepard is royaly screwed if the theory is true. 

[MadRabbit999]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

You forgot to mention the Shepard is the only one who has seen and interacted with the kid... and the community of the indoctrinatio ntheory, believes him to be an illusion too, I said the kid was and illusion the moment shepard saw him die  (This was before knowing the endings) it was just a gut feeling, and it was weird that later on coincided with the theories of the indoctrination.

The child may be an illusion brought on by PTSD or something, but it doesn't prove the theory. Thats not how indoctrination works. 

That is true.. but is a clue that can g oeither way...

My really first thought it was that perhaps that child was the reflection of Shepard as a child.. but that he had forgotten...

[Candidate 88766]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

There is also 1 unexplained point.... when Vegas says "Can you hear this buzzing noise?" This could be a sign that the Normandy has always carried a device that slowly indoctrinated Shepard over the months from serving under cerberus ME2 + ME 3.

Plenty of time to get his mind mildly influenced to me.

Or it could be that he's on a spaceship, and that spaceship is making a buzzing noise.

[Safoulan]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just to nip this in the bud - No the reapers being destroyed will not end the indoc. It states in ME2 that races that were indoctrinated just stood there and starved to death when the Reapers left.

Ok that's better. I want my Shep to starve to death because he is brain dead and doesn't know he is supposed to eat.

Yea I like all these terrible outcomes for Shep very much.

Indoc Theory suggests that the ending to ME3 is a symbolic method (in Shep's head) to break Indoc.

It relies on the scene via the 'Red' Ending where Shep awakens seemingly back on Earth.
(as you said, he is not Clark Kent & I don't see any way for him to survive the Citadel falling to Earth as rubble)

So, if it's correct, the Crucible has not yet been used and the possibility of ending the Reaper Threat for real is still doable.

OK what part arent you grasping or are you just conviently ignoring this point.

If Shepard is indoctrinated at any point in the game, it is permanent. Therefor Shepards fate will be to:

Become insane
Starve to death
Kill himself
Become a Husk

Because for everyone else, ever, in the game that has been indoctrinated that was their fate. Shepard is not superman so that has to be his fate to according to game lore and game mechanics.

So you guys want Shep to have a worse fate then what we got. 

It is the ending of the ME Trilogy & Shep is the Main Char who has already recieved special treatment in ME2.

You are insisting that he cannot break Indoc because no one before him has.
In ME1 no one before him had been rebuilt, both ship and body.
In ME2 no one before him had used the Omega 4 Relay w/o dying or assaulted the Collectors.

If Indoc is incorrect, it is further evidence that the Creative Team behind ME3 was not overly concerned (where the ending is involved anyway) with breaking their game lore or with droppingn plot holes.

I do not believe Creative Teams that put games together follow their own lore so rigidly (with sequels especially) that they would never push the envelope in the way of plausibility & realism.

Which, again, ME2 already did that.

[Rusty0918]

Well, she wasn't quite aware of indoctrination as much as Shepard was.

[Jaze55]

KitePolaris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

Willpower does very much have an effect on preventing indoctrination. Why do you think TIM pumped Red Sand into Paul? Because he wouldn't let the Reapers into his head even though he was filled with the tech. And when the effects wore off, he was able to resist more.

But eventually he would succomb and become a Husk according to the games lore and mechanics. Just like Shepard, unless Shep is super human.

[Candidate 88766]

KitePolaris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

Willpower does very much have an effect on preventing indoctrination. Why do you think TIM pumped Red Sand into Paul? Because he wouldn't let the Reapers into his head even though he was filled with the tech. And when the effects wore off, he was able to resist more.

All it was doing was slowing the reapers down though. Once you're indoctrinated, there is no going back. Willpower can't undo the changes to your mind that indoctrination causes.

[Jaze55]

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Safoulan wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Just to nip this in the bud - No the reapers being destroyed will not end the indoc. It states in ME2 that races that were indoctrinated just stood there and starved to death when the Reapers left.

Ok that's better. I want my Shep to starve to death because he is brain dead and doesn't know he is supposed to eat.

Yea I like all these terrible outcomes for Shep very much.

Indoc Theory suggests that the ending to ME3 is a symbolic method (in Shep's head) to break Indoc.

It relies on the scene via the 'Red' Ending where Shep awakens seemingly back on Earth.
(as you said, he is not Clark Kent & I don't see any way for him to survive the Citadel falling to Earth as rubble)

So, if it's correct, the Crucible has not yet been used and the possibility of ending the Reaper Threat for real is still doable.

OK what part arent you grasping or are you just conviently ignoring this point.

If Shepard is indoctrinated at any point in the game, it is permanent. Therefor Shepards fate will be to:

Become insane
Starve to death
Kill himself
Become a Husk

Because for everyone else, ever, in the game that has been indoctrinated that was their fate. Shepard is not superman so that has to be his fate to according to game lore and game mechanics.

So you guys want Shep to have a worse fate then what we got. 

It is the ending of the ME Trilogy & Shep is the Main Char who has already recieved special treatment in ME2.

You are insisting that he cannot break Indoc because no one before him has.
In ME1 no one before him had been rebuilt, both ship and body.
In ME2 no one before him had used the Omega 4 Relay w/o dying or assaulted the Collectors.

If Indoc is incorrect, it is further evidence that the Creative Team behind ME3 was not overly concerned (where the ending is involved anyway) with breaking their game lore or with droppingn plot holes.

I do not believe Creative Teams that put games together follow their own lore so rigidly (with sequels especially) that they would never push the envelope in the way of plausibility & realism.

Which, again, ME2 already did that.

And before ME3 there was no space magice and breathing in space with no helmet, but now there is so its OK then according to you. 

[Vikali]

MassEffected555 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

Willpower does very much have an effect on preventing indoctrination. Why do you think TIM pumped Red Sand into Paul? Because he wouldn't let the Reapers into his head even though he was filled with the tech. And when the effects wore off, he was able to resist more.

But eventually he would succomb and become a Husk according to the games lore and mechanics. Just like Shepard, unless Shep is super human.

Lol, did you even read the book?

One, if he was able to resist with reaper tech INSIDE HIS BODY trying to speak to him and it required adrenaline for them to seize control, how is it out of the realm of possibility that Shepard can wilfully break out of just the mental effects? And Greyson didn't become a husk.

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...

But eventually he would succomb and become a Husk according to the games lore and mechanics. Just like Shepard, unless Shep is super human.

If I say Shepard is Goku and he's going to Kamehameha the Reaper's into non-existense, will you leave?

[Candidate 88766]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

You forgot to mention the Shepard is the only one who has seen and interacted with the kid... and the community of the indoctrinatio ntheory, believes him to be an illusion too, I said the kid was and illusion the moment shepard saw him die  (This was before knowing the endings) it was just a gut feeling, and it was weird that later on coincided with the theories of the indoctrination.

The child may be an illusion brought on by PTSD or something, but it doesn't prove the theory. Thats not how indoctrination works. 

That is true.. but is a clue that can g oeither way...

My really first thought it was that perhaps that child was the reflection of Shepard as a child.. but that he had forgotten...

Its an interesting idea, but it seems more likely that the child is simply there to create emotion. The Alliance soldiers were pretty desperate to leave, and yet wait until the child is on the shuttle before closing the doors and ordering them to leave. Thats indication enough to me that they're not completetly ignoring him, which seems to be one of the focal points of the argument.

[Vikali]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
None of these things can be overcome through willpower. 

The Reapers don't need to 'trick' Shepard into becomming indoctrinated - indoctrination cannot fail. Electromagnetic fields cannot be stopped with willpower. All it takes is time. You can delay it by staying away from Reaper technology, but you can't prevent it from happening through willpower. Anyone who believes this doesn't actually know how indoctrination works.

And if the Reapers were, as you say, desperate, Harbinger would simply keep shooting Shepard's body until there was nothing left but a smoking crater and some ash.

Willpower does very much have an effect on preventing indoctrination. Why do you think TIM pumped Red Sand into Paul? Because he wouldn't let the Reapers into his head even though he was filled with the tech. And when the effects wore off, he was able to resist more.

All it was doing was slowing the reapers down though. Once you're indoctrinated, there is no going back. Willpower can't undo the changes to your mind that indoctrination causes.

The main problem with Paul was the Reaper used his body as an avatar. Shepard doesn't have that problem.

[Rob_K1]

One thing I would like to point out actually, which I've not seen many people reference at all really, is that the white light that appears before Shepard wakes up is the same as what appears when the child dream sequences end.

It might be a coincidence, but still... it's worth mentioning. The tune also sounds similar too, when the screen is black.

Edit: Oh, one thing... on whether subliminal methods can be resisted, does that not come down to the person in question who's receiving said subliminal signals? I don't know about the rest of it though.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 05:20 .

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

One thing I would like to point out actually, which I've not seen many people reference at all really, is that the white light that appears before Shepard wakes up is the same as what appears when the child dream sequences end.

It might be a coincidence, but still... it's worth mentioning. The tune also sounds similar too, when the screen is black.

When you wake up you don't see bright light? It's called dilated pupils.