758 réponses à ce sujet

[MadRabbit999]

Tsantilas wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Try to see it from the point of view of the soldier.. if there is a child running toward yuor vehicle.. wouldn't you wave him to hurry up.. or stretch your hand and grab/hug him? Maybe I am jsut over protective.. but that to me seems the most common reaction to help a frightened child.

What about the soldier that was standing right outside the shuttle door checking the perimiter for enemies while the Kid got onto the shuttle?  Kid gets on shuttle, shuttle doors close, soldier outside punches shuttle, shuttle takes off.  Why would the shuttle wait around for an illusion?

Ever seen Fight Club?

You could really swear that he was passing a beer to Brad Pitt couldn't you?

Hallucination distort reality to make it fit...

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 19 mars 2012 - 05:31 .

[Jaze55]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

But it doesn't disprove that he can regain control of his mind and continue on and get us a real conclusion.  If he can resist it long enough. I never said I think he'll just shake off the effects fully, but does that mean he can't go on? Nope. 

I'm not looking for a happy ending. I wouldn't care if he really had to make a heroic sacrifice or turn into a mutant Grayson 2.0 after it all, but I'm saying there's room for this theory according to lore.

It does disprove it though.

The lore itself states that by the time the Reapers have gained control of the person's body, that person is hearing alien voices in their mind. Now just imagine how indoctrinated you'd have to be in order to hallucinate entire scenes. Understanding that indoctrination causes changes toy uor mind, and that these changes are permanent, there is no way that Shepard is going to be able to do anything. 

Not only that, but the lore never hints that full hallucinations are possible, and given that there were no signs over any of the games of even low levels of indoctrination in Shepard, Harbinger would have to be indoctrinating Shepard faster than the lore has ever indicated is possible, which would leave Shepard as little more than a husk.

According to game lore the above statement is 100% correct.

Unless space  magic is allowed in the convo of course. 

[Tsantilas]

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

This.  Why not just let him die?

[mooney6023]

KitePolaris wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

With 4000+ EMS the Destroy ending is specifically a significant choice. Sure, you get the scene with shepard breathing in the rubble, but you also get a "lived to fight again" flag set in you save file.

You can confirm the existence of this flag with the GIBB ME3 save editor.

I think this supports the existence of post end content and, indirectly, a variation of the Indoc theory. Why have such a flag otherwise?

Or did someone prove that flag was set with other ending variations and I just haven't seen it?

Gib said he took a lot of stuff from his ME2 editor, so that flag could very well just be recycled.

Why does it get set only if you choose Destroy with 4000+ EMS?  Even if Gib recycled the text describing it in his editor it's still a value getting changed in the save file by the game.

[Jaze55]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Try to see it from the point of view of the soldier.. if there is a child running toward yuor vehicle.. wouldn't you wave him to hurry up.. or stretch your hand and grab/hug him? Maybe I am jsut over protective.. but that to me seems the most common reaction to help a frightened child.

What about the soldier that was standing right outside the shuttle door checking the perimiter for enemies while the Kid got onto the shuttle?  Kid gets on shuttle, shuttle doors close, soldier outside punches shuttle, shuttle takes off.  Why would the shuttle wait around for an illusion?

Ever seen Fight Club?

You could really swear that he was passing a beer to Brad Pitt couldn't you?

Hallucination distort reality to make it fit...

Oh man THAT's the real reason Reapers came.... someone talked about Fight Club and you know you aren't supposed to. 

[Vikali]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

But it doesn't disprove that he can regain control of his mind and continue on and get us a real conclusion.  If he can resist it long enough. I never said I think he'll just shake off the effects fully, but does that mean he can't go on? Nope. 

I'm not looking for a happy ending. I wouldn't care if he really had to make a heroic sacrifice or turn into a mutant Grayson 2.0 after it all, but I'm saying there's room for this theory according to lore.

It does disprove it though.

The lore itself states that by the time the Reapers have gained control of the person's body, that person is hearing alien voices in their mind. Now just imagine how indoctrinated you'd have to be in order to hallucinate entire scenes. Understanding that indoctrination causes changes toy uor mind, and that these changes are permanent, there is no way that Shepard is going to be able to do anything. 

Not only that, but the lore never hints that full hallucinations are possible, and given that there were no signs over any of the games of even low levels of indoctrination in Shepard, Harbinger would have to be indoctrinating Shepard faster than the lore has ever indicated is possible, which would leave Shepard as little more than a husk.

If Reapers can create scenarios and dreams in a person's mind, as experienced in Retribution and the derelect reaper, why is this so far out of reach?

[Xerkysz]

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

To stop Shep from destroying them, and continue the cycle.

[Tsantilas]

mooney6023 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

With 4000+ EMS the Destroy ending is specifically a significant choice. Sure, you get the scene with shepard breathing in the rubble, but you also get a "lived to fight again" flag set in you save file.

You can confirm the existence of this flag with the GIBB ME3 save editor.

I think this supports the existence of post end content and, indirectly, a variation of the Indoc theory. Why have such a flag otherwise?

Or did someone prove that flag was set with other ending variations and I just haven't seen it?

Gib said he took a lot of stuff from his ME2 editor, so that flag could very well just be recycled.

Why does it get set only if you choose Destroy with 4000+ EMS?  Even if Gib recycled the text describing it in his editor it's still a value getting changed in the save file by the game.

Because that's the only ending where Shepard lives?  Where are you going with this?

[Candidate 88766]

Tsantilas wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

This.  Why not just let him die?

There's also the obvious point that if you're trying to knock someone out, you don't shoot them with a Reaper gun.

Reaper guns fire insanely hot beams of metal at ridiculously high speeds. You don't shoot that if you want someone knocked out - you shoot that if you want that someone atomised.

[Jaze55]

mooney6023 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

With 4000+ EMS the Destroy ending is specifically a significant choice. Sure, you get the scene with shepard breathing in the rubble, but you also get a "lived to fight again" flag set in you save file.

You can confirm the existence of this flag with the GIBB ME3 save editor.

I think this supports the existence of post end content and, indirectly, a variation of the Indoc theory. Why have such a flag otherwise?

Or did someone prove that flag was set with other ending variations and I just haven't seen it?

Gib said he took a lot of stuff from his ME2 editor, so that flag could very well just be recycled.

Why does it get set only if you choose Destroy with 4000+ EMS?  Even if Gib recycled the text describing it in his editor it's still a value getting changed in the save file by the game.

http://www.gamespot....ybody-62228429/ 

about the save game edior. 

[Xerkysz]

Tsantilas wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

This.  Why not just let him die?

According to MassEffected555, Shep = Goku.
You ever watch DBZ? How many times did Goku die?

[Jaze55]

Xerkysz wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

To stop Shep from destroying them, and continue the cycle.

Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

[Capeo]

Xerkysz wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

To stop Shep from destroying them, and continue the cycle.

I think the giant effing laser would acheive the same end and is much simpler, and true, since that's what they actually tried to do.  Of course, Harbinger fell for the oldest trope in the book.  He didn't check to see if the Hero was really dead.  

[Zhant]

Tsantilas wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

This.  Why not just let him die?

maybe the reapers think shepard is dead? just like in multiplayer when a teammate is bleed to death, he can be revived after another wave ?

let's say it's luck, since anderson is alive as well.

oh but that could be only shepard's imagination...

[Candidate 88766]

KitePolaris wrote...

If Reapers can create scenarios and dreams in a person's mind, as experienced in Retribution and the derelect reaper, why is this so far out of reach?

On the Derelict Reaper, the Cerberus crew seem to be having shared memories, and seeing things in the corner of their eyes. Not hallucinatng an entire series of events that often take place outside their FOV.

And we don't know whether the scenes from Retribution are a direct result of indoctrination, or the result of indoctrination plus the other drugs and stuff TIM pumped into him.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 19 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[Jaze55]

Xerkysz wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Zhant wrote...

a very, very, very simple question: why do reapers want a last minute indoc?

This.  Why not just let him die?

According to MassEffected555, Shep = Goku.
You ever watch DBZ? How many times did Goku die?

No according to me you have no idea what you are talking about. I am proving you wrong and now you want to ignore my facts. Go bury your head in the sand a little deeper I don't think the shallow hole you dug is working for you anymore. 

[ArkkAngel007]

Capeo wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Shepard was hearing voices AND seeing ghostly images. So what if it was only in his nightmares? It seems that everytime he let his mind rest, he would have those visions. When he was vunerable.

... OR you know, since he only has those nightmares after someone significant dies?  Like after the kid dies? After Mordin Dies? After Thane dies?  PTSD!  The only time in the whole trilogy that Shepard (and us as players) ever experience something even closely resembling what has been established through the Narrative as Indoctrination, is during the TIM sequence.  TIM dies, blurry black outline thing goes away.  No more control.  That is the ONLY time.  Never during the whole 5 year experience, through all the contact he's had with reapers and reaper tech, has Shepard experienced anything even remotelly resembling Indoctrination other than that one scene.  Not so much as a "well maybe reapers aren't completely wrong".

Ah, common sense!  The script makes it clear the nightmares are about guilt.  It states outright that as the game goes on blurry ghost images appear in the nightmares representing all the civilians dying.  The game does too actually.  That's why, if you don't import a Shep you have to choose your biggest regret.

No one is saying that isn't what the nightmares are.  But, particularly in that last dream, there are other things happening behind the scenes.  The script doesn't explain why the child bursts into flames (nor does it say that Shepard witnesses himself burning with the child).

The script doesn't explain what is happening behind the scenes and the motivation.  Only a few notes to help cinematic designers and animators express the correct emotion and atmosphere.  Also realize a lot of what was in the ending wasn't in the script as far as the walk to the beam, the actual visual result of the ending choice, and what happens to the Normandy and crew.

So of course, if you were to take the ending literally, the script works well.  But it isn't entirely reliable.

[Xerkysz]

MassEffected555 wrote...


Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

More use to Harbinger alive, if he could complete indoctrination.

Xerkysz wrote...
"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Shepard was hearing voices AND seeing ghostly images. So what if it was only in his nightmares? It seems that everytime he let his mind rest, he would have those visions. When he was vunerable.

... OR you know, since he only has those nightmares after someone significant dies?  Like after the kid dies? After Mordin Dies? After Thane dies?  PTSD!  The only time in the whole trilogy that Shepard (and us as players) ever experience something even closely resembling what has been established through the Narrative as Indoctrination, is during the TIM sequence.  TIM dies, blurry black outline thing goes away.  No more control.  That is the ONLY time.  Never during the whole 5 year experience, through all the contact he's had with reapers and reaper tech, has Shepard experienced anything even remotelly resembling Indoctrination other than that one scene.  Not so much as a "well maybe reapers aren't completely wrong".

Ah, common sense!  The script makes it clear the nightmares are about guilt.  It states outright that as the game goes on blurry ghost images appear in the nightmares representing all the civilians dying.  The game does too actually.  That's why, if you don't import a Shep you have to choose your biggest regret.

No one is saying that isn't what the nightmares are.  But, particularly in that last dream, there are other things happening behind the scenes.  The script doesn't explain why the child bursts into flames (nor does it say that Shepard witnesses himself burning with the child).

The script doesn't explain what is happening behind the scenes and the motivation.  Only a few notes to help cinematic designers and animators express the correct emotion and atmosphere.  Also realize a lot of what was in the ending wasn't in the script as far as the walk to the beam, the actual visual result of the ending choice, and what happens to the Normandy and crew.

So of course, if you were to take the ending literally, the script works well.  But it isn't entirely reliable.

The child bursts into flames because everything around Shepard dies. PSTD its inferring that to Shepard everything good around him and innocent - see CHILD - dies. That's why in the last dream Shep is there too. It's trying to say that Shep feel everything thats gone bad is his/her responsibility.

He/she even yells and is all depressed after Thesia saying ' NO IT'S ON ME WE LOST THE INFO" or whatever.

He/she is shouldering the burden of everything and everyone that has died in the reaper attack. 

[Tsantilas]

Xerkysz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

More use to Harbinger alive, if he could complete indoctrination.

Xerkysz wrote...
"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Except that "rapid indoctrination" would result in a husk.  Also what's an Indoctrinated Shepard going to do at that point in the war?  Convert everyone to the reaper cause?

[Rob_K1]

Tsantilas wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

KitePolaris wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

With 4000+ EMS the Destroy ending is specifically a significant choice. Sure, you get the scene with shepard breathing in the rubble, but you also get a "lived to fight again" flag set in you save file.

You can confirm the existence of this flag with the GIBB ME3 save editor.

I think this supports the existence of post end content and, indirectly, a variation of the Indoc theory. Why have such a flag otherwise?

Or did someone prove that flag was set with other ending variations and I just haven't seen it?

Gib said he took a lot of stuff from his ME2 editor, so that flag could very well just be recycled.

Why does it get set only if you choose Destroy with 4000+ EMS?  Even if Gib recycled the text describing it in his editor it's still a value getting changed in the save file by the game.

Because that's the only ending where Shepard lives?  Where are you going with this?

I'm going to be short and sweet here:

The moment the 'child' says that the destroy option would destroy all synthetics and then says even Shepard is partly synthetic, implying he'd die, is what immediately brings into question everything the child says.

That is what sealed it for me that the ending is not as it seems, as Shepard is shown breathing with the destroy ending if you have enough EMS. I do not care about the rest of the evidence. Again, that one little bit shows me that nothing said can be taken at face value.

So, basically, what I'm saying is the ending shouldn't be taken at face value, regardless of whether the indoctrination theory is correct or not.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[Candidate 88766]

Xerkysz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

More use to Harbinger alive, if he could complete indoctrination.

Xerkysz wrote...
"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

The combined strength of the entire galaxy has arrived at Earth. The time for subversion and planting sleeper agents is over. there's no need for it when the reapers can simply wipe out the entirety of the galaxy's military might in one go.

[Capeo]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Shepard was hearing voices AND seeing ghostly images. So what if it was only in his nightmares? It seems that everytime he let his mind rest, he would have those visions. When he was vunerable.

... OR you know, since he only has those nightmares after someone significant dies?  Like after the kid dies? After Mordin Dies? After Thane dies?  PTSD!  The only time in the whole trilogy that Shepard (and us as players) ever experience something even closely resembling what has been established through the Narrative as Indoctrination, is during the TIM sequence.  TIM dies, blurry black outline thing goes away.  No more control.  That is the ONLY time.  Never during the whole 5 year experience, through all the contact he's had with reapers and reaper tech, has Shepard experienced anything even remotelly resembling Indoctrination other than that one scene.  Not so much as a "well maybe reapers aren't completely wrong".

Ah, common sense!  The script makes it clear the nightmares are about guilt.  It states outright that as the game goes on blurry ghost images appear in the nightmares representing all the civilians dying.  The game does too actually.  That's why, if you don't import a Shep you have to choose your biggest regret.

No one is saying that isn't what the nightmares are.  But, particularly in that last dream, there are other things happening behind the scenes.  The script doesn't explain why the child bursts into flames (nor does it say that Shepard witnesses himself burning with the child).

The script doesn't explain what is happening behind the scenes and the motivation.  Only a few notes to help cinematic designers and animators express the correct emotion and atmosphere.  Also realize a lot of what was in the ending wasn't in the script as far as the walk to the beam, the actual visual result of the ending choice, and what happens to the Normandy and crew.

So of course, if you were to take the ending literally, the script works well.  But it isn't entirely reliable.

It's far more reliable than baseless conjecture.  It's what you call objective evidence.  And it gels with all the other objective evidence such as Final Hours, dev interviews, BW saying last night on FB that these are the endings and most importantly the damn game tells you, no matter your choice, you have defeated the Reapers and the same epilogue plays.

[Jaze55]

Xerkysz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

More use to Harbinger alive, if he could complete indoctrination.

Xerkysz wrote...
"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

Ok so again, if Shep gets indoctrinated he is screwed. Even if he just gets indoctrinated "a little" its effects will wind up turning him into a husk, insane, not able to take care of himself or he will have to kill himslef or be killed.

No thanks. 

[Jaze55]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...


Because killing him outright definitely wouldn't accomplist that. 

More use to Harbinger alive, if he could complete indoctrination.

Xerkysz wrote...
"Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations."

The combined strength of the entire galaxy has arrived at Earth. The time for subversion and planting sleeper agents is over. there's no need for it when the reapers can simply wipe out the entirety of the galaxy's military might in one go.

I was just about to write the same thing but you beat me to it.