758 réponses à ce sujet

[SirCroft]

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

[IronSabbath88]

Has anyone noticed that Star Child pretty much repeats what the reaper on Rannoch says?

Just saying..

[noobcannon]

not alot of new stuff here, but i love it all getting brought back up again.

[Midnight Eternal]

Xerkysz wrote...

Midnight Eternal wrote...

You bring up something interesting, you see. In all of the ME lore, that I am aware of mind you, I have not read the novels. No one has stopped themselves from becoming indoctrinated. Apparently if it's gonna get ya, it is gonng get ya no bones about it.  Shepard may be "Space Jesus" but he is still human.

Which raises another question, this one intrigues me.

From the lore, it will get you no bones about it, yet Harbinger wanted Shep in ME2, but couldn't get him.

Thought's on this Midnight?

That is curious, good question. My hypothesis would be he would have need to be within what I will refer to as the "remote range" for Indoctrination in relation to Harbinger physically. I'd also speculate, assuming IT is true, that when shep was around object rho, that harbinger did not want to rush the indoctrination as to have a thrall that would last longer than a week.(in reference to the relationship between the speed of indoctrination and how long said thrall would last.) So perhaps Harbinger was indeed trying to get his claws(tentacles?) on Shep but wanted him as more than a mindless thrall as to perhaps stop him from gathering a resistance to begin with. That would be my guess anyhow.

[Primula Nightfall]

MassEffected555 wrote...


Why is the Catalyst a God? he is just an AI or VI created by whoever created the Reapers. Why do we keep calling him God? IT didnt do anything, the Citadel did everything lol, so the Citadel is the god not the stupid VI or AI kid. 

Call him whatever you want, man. I called it a "God" because it's the first term it came to mind. Call him a VI if you prefer, that's not the point

[Jaze55]

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

[Candidate 88766]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Has anyone noticed that Star Child pretty much repeats what the reaper on Rannoch says?

Just saying..

You expected him to say something entirely different?

[IronSabbath88]

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

[Zhant]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

a brainless zombie that only listen to one command, take the command away and what are you?

[SirCroft]

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

I'm willing to overlook this plothole if they fix the plethora of plotholes the current endings have.
Hallucination, indoctrination, what you'll call it. But Shepard waking up after being hit by Harbinger's beam and all we've seen was merely in Shepard's mind would be a good way to start fixing the ending.

Modifié par SirCroft, 19 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[Xerkysz]

Midnight Eternal wrote...

So perhaps Harbinger was indeed trying to get his claws(tentacles?) (Weird scythe looking arms?) haha

[Candidate 88766]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

How do the Reapers get destroyed in the first place if Shepard became indoctrinated? If he becomes indoctrinated (which happesn in every ending according the the theory - indoctrination is permanent, so you can't simply wake up and be free of it) then he doesn't ever make it to the Conduit, the Citadel stays closed and everyone dies.

[Tsantilas]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

Indoctrination is basically just an electromagnetic signal.  Destroyed vs going away for all practical purposes has the same effect.  In the game it is established that when the reapers leave at the end of their harvesting, any indoctrinated subjects simply become braindead and die because of not being able to take care of themselves and recieving no more orders.

[trekker1701]

I just don't like the indoctrination theory. Never has Shepard shown signs of being indoctrinated. None of his crewmates have shown signs of indoctrination, and they've been where he has been. The dreams (nightmares) of the child dying is to me just the heaviness of the burden placed upon him to save earth and the galaxy. Midnight Eternal is right once you are indoctrinated, you are done man, at least from what I have seen. I think this thread was started out the by original poster that he thought Harbinger had started something in ME2, but to me it was never about indoctrinating him but rather "preparing him for ascension". Yes, Shepard has had contact with Reapers several times, but he has never had prolonged exposure, and he always ends up destroying it in the end.

Another argument is that in order for you to continue from that point, then everyone for their story to continue has to choose the destroy ending because you don't wake up at the end for synthesis or control.

I don't know, this is all just frustrating I guess. It's so hard for any of us because we don't have all the facts and we are trying to fill in the holes without them.

[Gunslinger01101]

Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...

Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.

I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

So am I...

[Jaze55]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

It's explained in ME2. After the reapers left all the indoctrinated subjects starved to death because they were incapable of thinking for themselves.

This is when the Reapers retreated to dark space and went into hibernation to conserve energy.

Modifié par MassEffected555, 19 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[Gunslinger01101]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

How do the Reapers get destroyed in the first place if Shepard became indoctrinated? If he becomes indoctrinated (which happesn in every ending according the the theory - indoctrination is permanent, so you can't simply wake up and be free of it) then he doesn't ever make it to the Conduit, the Citadel stays closed and everyone dies.

The point is that if you chose destroy option, you resisted indoctrination. Shepard has an iron will, don't discount it.

[Jaze55]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...

Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.

I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

So am I...

Mant people have given you proof. You just chose to ignore it. 

[ArkkAngel007]

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

It isn't until the very end, using a guilt-trip image of the child, that the Reapers can present "other solutions" to Shepard to end the Reaper threat.  It was the only way to circumvent Shepard's mindset that was setting up the resistance.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 19 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[IronSabbath88]

You know I'm also completley open to the fact that Shepard was just dreaming again after he's KO'd by the beam.

But people are so against "it was all a dream" I never bring it up.

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

Benezia's goal was to make Saren see the error of his ways. You know that 800ish year old asari matriach of considerable power and who has always been a force of good, for 800ish years, was able to be indoctrinated so your logic fails, according to in game law and mechanics. 


"
Matriarch Benezia[/b][color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] [/color]biotic[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ]'s mother, though the two have not spoken in years. When the evidence that proved[/color]Saren Arterius[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] attack also proved Benezia was working alongside him, it surprised those who knew her, as Benezia's actions seemed to be completely out of character.[/color] "

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 


edit- more since its all related

Given her status as a matriarch, Benezia must have lived for almost a millennium. She was known and revered as a teacher of religion and philosophy. When she was in the 'matron' phase of her life, Benezia had a daughter, Liara T'Soni. Unusually Benezia mated with another asari, considered afaux pas[/i] in their society. (After discovering their ability to mate with any species, asari consider producing offspring with their own kind as wasteful because "nothing is gained" from pureblooded asari offspring.) Liara tellsCommander Shepard that she doesn't know who Benezia chose as her partner; she and her mother never discussed Liara's second parent, and Liara believes Benezia may have been ashamed of her choices. She raised Liara alone - not an uncommon occurrence in asari society - and was amused when Liara chose to study Protheanarchaeology, a minor rebellion against her forward-thinking mother.[color="#ffffff"]According to Liara, Benezia felt that the asari should have a greater role in shaping galactic events. She was [/color]Saren Arterius[color="#ffffff"]' executor and a fellow [/color]Binary Helix[color="#ffffff"] investor. Somehow Benezia discovered Saren's plan to aid the [/color]Reapers[color="#ffffff"], and decided to try and guide him down a less destructive path. Benezia gave her followers a choice - only those who were willing had to accompany her. Many refused because they thought her plan was too dangerous, but others, including [/color]Shiala[color="#ffffff"], believed in her. With their help Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his insanity.[/color]But the influence of the Reaper Sovereign was too powerful and Benezia became enslaved to Saren's will, along with her retinue of guards and commandos. Benezia's position became something between Saren's advisor and his second-in-command. Saren knew Benezia's value; even when she enraged him by bringing the news that Shepard had accidentally used the Prothean Beacon, he restrained himself from attacking her and ordered her to ensure the Commander was eliminated.Through Binary Helix, Benezia funded a secret project on Noveria to breed rachni from a newly discovered egg. They were intended to form part of Saren's army, but when Binary Helix removed the brood from the Rachni Queen's presence, the rachni went rogue. Benezia went to the lab at Peak 15 to investigate the situation and to gain information from the queen's genetic memory about the location of the Mu Relay. She was accompanied by her escort of asari commandos and caused a stir at Port Hanshan when she arrived, telling the authorities she was there as Saren's representative. Lorik Qui'in told Shepard that "Lady Benezia was dressed for her role. An asari matriarch in a pin-striped suit set tongues wagging amongst the younger male employees... so to speak."[color="#ffffff"]Benezia, aware that Shepard was on Saren's trail, brought [/color]geth[color="#ffffff"]in crates to Noveria with her and left them to guard the garage. She also left agents such as [/color]Alestia Iallis[color="#ffffff"] behind (or recruited[/color]Captain Ventralis[color="#ffffff"], depending on circumstances) to stop Shepard from reaching her. After fighting geth, rachni and Benezia's followers, the squad found her waiting for them in the labs beside the Rachni Queen. Even Liara's presence in the squad, if Shepard chose to bring her, didn't stop Benezia from unleashing her [/color]biotics[color="#ffffff"] and her commandos against them.[/color]Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly. She described the horrors of indoctrination, how it feels to be trapped in your own mind: "beating upon the glass as your hands torture and murder..." She gave Shepard the coordinates for the Mu Relay, though she couldn't tell the Commander any more of Saren's plan, and warned of Sovereign's incredible power before the indoctrination began to overcome her. Benezia managed to tell Liara that her daughter had always made her proud, but finally turned on Shepard and the squad were forced to kill her. As she lay dying, she claimed not to see the light promised in asari religion.After Noveria, Shepard can talk to Liara about what happened, but Liara claims she is all right. She prefers to remember Benezia as she was: a kind, beautiful woman who loved her

Modifié par MassEffected555, 19 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[noobcannon]

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

my understanding is they are TRYING to indoctrinate him.

[Tsantilas]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

This is a direct contradiction to the Indoctrination theory though.  Clearly his goals can be manipulated towards the reapers if the synthesis and control choices are the reaper's goals.  So... yes he can? Either that or he's not being indoctrinated.  Anyway I think I might have to make a post summing up all the arguments made over the last few pages because we're starting to repeat the same responses over and over....

Modifié par Tsantilas, 19 mars 2012 - 06:34 .

[Zhant]

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

SirCroft wrote...

I think the indoctrination theory would be a good scapegoat for BioWare to change the ending without erasing the ones we got, exactly.

No because the only possible out comes of being indoctrinated according to game lore is

Insanity
Suicide
Becoming brain dead and no longer being able to take care of yourself
becoming a husk
being killed


You are never normal again after

But what happens if you're indoctrinated and the reapers are destroyed?

Hmm..

How do the Reapers get destroyed in the first place if Shepard became indoctrinated? If he becomes indoctrinated (which happesn in every ending according the the theory - indoctrination is permanent, so you can't simply wake up and be free of it) then he doesn't ever make it to the Conduit, the Citadel stays closed and everyone dies.

The point is that if you chose destroy option, you resisted indoctrination. Shepard has an iron will, don't discount it.

ok..... let's say.

if harbinger wan to end the chaos

he can either: 

indoctorinate shepard, but risk a 33% chance of shepard destroy all reapers + geth + whatever robots there are


or

just shott a big lasor(or high speed melten liquid metal) towards shepard (and anderson, assume he did survive as well)and have a chance of 100% to end this cycle, risk free

[esideras]

This was the only thing bothering me about the theory "Savionen- “The VI didn't detect indoctrination. - Javik states that indoctrination can't be seen by VI's until very late.”" That the VI didn't detect it that is. So no plotholes, it's a good theory. It's all in how and if Bioware will implement it. Shepard wakes up and then what?