758 réponses à ce sujet

[Liquoid]

Morrden, I'd like to hear your input onto why Shepard's eyes during Control and Synthesis options become blue and adopt a texture that bears striking similarity to The Illusive Man's eyes.

Mind you, we know for a fact that The Illusive Man is definitely indoctrinated.

[CavScout]

Liquoid wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...
Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.

I haven't heard a single coherent argument against the Indoctrination

Here's one: You have no proof. None. Zero. Zilch. Nadda.

[Xerkysz]

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

Let's clarify. No one is right, no one is wrong. Not yet, at least. This is a textbook case of Shrodinger's cat. Neither side has adequate proof to state with certainty that they are correct. So until an official statement is made, you're arguing a moot point.

You mean this cat?

[Captain Shakespeare]

...

[Morrden]

There, literally every single point of proof counterpointed.

I'll state it again: All evidence for indoctrination theory is circumstantial, wishfully interpreted, and/or plain made up. Evidence against it is about as definitive as we're going to get from Bioware, ranging from statements backing up the current ending from Casey Hudson to admitting they have no plans at the moment to amend the ending, but are willing to listen.

If they really had an ace up their sleeves, don't you think they'd have played it the moment amazon prices took that initial hit? Why would they still be holding onto it with so much outrage being generated that it's literally making national news?

[EsterCloat]

Xerkysz wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...
Please, tell us what exactly would constitute proof to you that indoctrination theory is false.

A dev coming out and saying what they have planned for the April DLC release, which they won't do until more people have experienced the game.

If that's your single criteria then Captain Shakespeare is correct and the point is moot. Your call for proof that the theory is false is a loaded request because it's impossible to fulfill your requirements.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 19 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[Morrden]

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

Let's clarify. No one is right, no one is wrong. Not yet, at least. This is a textbook case of Shrodinger's cat. Neither side has adequate proof to state with certainty that they are correct. So until an official statement is made, you're arguing a moot point.

1. That's not what Schrodinger's Cat illustrates.
2. Actually in this circumstance, it falls back to the Burden of Proof. Bioware has officially stated that this ending was their intent the whole time. Someone disagreeing with that has to prove why it would be otherwise, not just say 'well you don't have evidence either, so they're equally likely'. I don't have evidence that a car isn't going to come crashing through my wall right now, that doesn't make it an equally likely circumstance. 

[Kanon777]

Morrden wrote...

Evidence against it is about as definitive as we're going to get from Bioware, ranging from statements backing up the current ending from Casey Hudson to admitting they have no plans at the moment to amend the ending, but are willing to listen.

If they really had an ace up their sleeves, don't you think they'd have played it the moment amazon prices took that initial hit? Why would they still be holding onto it with so much outrage being generated that it's literally making national news?

Ill just quote this again, nothing else needs to be said

[Tsantilas]

Asking for evidence disproving the indoctrination theory is like asking for evidence disproving Santa Clause. I don't think I need to provide evidence that it is illogical to believe that a fat man in a red suit flies around the planet in 1 day on a reindeer powered sleigh delivering presents to all the children of the world.

The narrative provides no reason to believe that the indoctrination theory is a "thing".

"Hmm... the last 10 minutes seem full of plot holes and inconsistencies, and weird teleporting and stuff. Must be some kind of deep hidden subplot the writers left for the players to figure out based on guesswork and hunches". Seems legit.

[Captain Shakespeare]

Bioware has stated many things, a number of which are contradictory.

Shrodinger's cat illustrates the principle that when something isn't observed, or evident, it can exist in a quantum state in which it takes on multiple attributes (dead/alive or indoctrination/original) until that state is disrupted.  In this case with "proof" one way or the other.

Modifié par Captain Shakespeare, 19 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[Kinoru]

If the theory is right however we don't really get an ending at all. We end up with a cliff hanger. Kinda much more annoying than the actual ending they gave us.

[wtbusername]

CavScout wrote...

wtbusername wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...


I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

ditto

Thirded.

If that's a word.

Is this how you guys admit that you can't actually support, with proof, your theory claims and so instead petulantly demand it be disproven?

No, it's called giving the doctor a taste of their own medicine.

Even though you or many may call the 'evidence' circumstantial, the 'seeds' of theory are there, planted.

The Final Hours app is actually confirmation of this, which most people tend to ignore.

Your argument, people who oppose this theory, ends up crediting everything to Space Magic.

I know what I'd rather believe in.

Modifié par wtbusername, 19 mars 2012 - 10:52 .

[Xerkysz]

EsterCloat wrote...
If that's your single criteria then Captain Shakespeare is correct and the point is moot. Your call for proof that the theory is false is a loaded request because it's impossible to fulfill your requirements.

It can be looked at like that, or it can be looked at from my point, "There are signs of it, they become obvious in ME3 (Not just the ending). There's no way BioWare would end a Trilogy the way they have, especially not ME3. So let's see what happened to this." 

I played through the game 6 times now, and I'm making sense of it after they have removed the part of you becomming "Entirely under Harbinger's control" because it was a difficult concept to make and have it work with dialog controls.

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 10:56 .

[Liquoid]

I don't understand how Schroedinger's Cat applies to this discussion, as that would imply the interpretation is in the quantum state of both wrong and right. Which is not the case.

While debatable, indoctrination theory gets too much praise from those supporting it, and too much flak to those opposing it. Consensus has to be reached to determine which parts of "evidence" are in fact wishful thinking, and which are too obvious to deny

[Xandurpein]

Indoctrination theory at it's core is the idea that certain things we see in the game are illusions. There's absolutely no way to ever prove or disprove such a theory logically, because all you do is change the premises to fit your analysis. I can off the hat write hundreds of similar theories that are equally impossible to prove or disprove logically, as long as I claim that any evidence that doesn't fit with my theory is an illusion.

That doesn't mean it's not possible to believe that parts of the end is illusory or just a dream. It's just impossible to ever prove anything either way. The Matrix can be true, we can all be living in the same illusion now, but in reality we are just feeding some alien experiment; you can't prove or disprove such a statement.

[Captain Shakespeare]

So long as nobody can prove or disprove IT, doesn't it exist in that quantum state?

Edit:  An official statement would serve as adequate proof, I think.

Modifié par Captain Shakespeare, 19 mars 2012 - 10:56 .

[Morrden]

So your point is basically: Bioware can do no wrong, therefore they have done no wrong.

Well that makes sense, definitely.

As to the eyes, I figured that was just a factor of his ENTIRE BODY turning blue/green respectively. The eyes are sort of part of that package, or so I've been led to believe.

[EsterCloat]

Xerkysz wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...
If that's your single criteria then Captain Shakespeare is correct and the point is moot. Your call for proof that the theory is false is a loaded request because it's impossible to fulfill your requirements.

It can be looked at like that, or it can be looked at from my point, "There are signs of it, they become obvious in ME3. There's no way BioWare would end a Trilogy the way they have, especially not ME3. So let's see what happened to this." 

I played through the game 6 times now, and I'm making sense of it after they have removed the part of you becomming "Entirely under Harbinger's control" because it was a difficult concept to make and have it work with dialog controls.

You're changing the subject. I asked you what would be proof for you, you said a only a dev announcement, thus we can offer you nothing that would count as proof. Any discussion on the validity of the theory under those circumstances is ultimately pointless outside of a thought experiment.

[Irishkev]

Again, bad writing and plotholes is far more likely an explanation than grand conspiracy. The end cutscene with the Normandy crashlanding just codes for your LI and most common squad members to exit the Normandy, with no regard for whether they were on the final charge or not.


Actually only if your LI is in the squad because my wasn't I got both members from the squad on earth

[Morrden]

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

So long as nobody can prove or disprove IT, doesn't it exist in that quantum state?

No, because quantum mechanics aren't in play here at all. Just because something cannot be proved either way doesn't mean both options are equally likely. Like I said before, I can't prove that right now there isn't a truck about to crash into my house, but that doesn't mean that it's just as likely to happen as not to happen. 

[Xerkysz]

EsterCloat wrote...
You're changing the subject. I asked you what would be proof for you, you said a only a dev announcement, thus we can offer you nothing that would count as proof. Any discussion on the validity of the theory under those circumstances is ultimately pointless outside of a thought experiment.

Don't get me wrong, if someone can come up with something that disproves it, be my guest. And so far there's only one thing I know of that would disprove it, Dev post.

Because as far as the community trying to disprove it, the best I've seen is raging, and graspingatstraws.jpg L3L3L3L.

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 10:58 .

[Captain Shakespeare]

Morrden wrote...

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

So long as nobody can prove or disprove IT, doesn't it exist in that quantum state?

No, because quantum mechanics aren't in play here at all. Just because something cannot be proved either way doesn't mean both options are equally likely. Like I said before, I can't prove that right now there isn't a truck about to crash into my house, but that doesn't mean that it's just as likely to happen as not to happen. 

 
You state that as if it's overwhelmingly likely that one theory is true over the other, and I've seen no evidence to substantiate such a claim.

Modifié par Captain Shakespeare, 19 mars 2012 - 11:01 .

[Xerkysz]

Irishkev wrote...

Again, bad writing and plotholes is far more likely an explanation than grand conspiracy. The end cutscene with the Normandy crashlanding just codes for your LI and most common squad members to exit the Normandy, with no regard for whether they were on the final charge or not.


Actually only if your LI is in the squad because my wasn't I got both members from the squad on earth

I played with Garrus/Liara throught the game, LI'd Ash.
Swapped out Liara for Javik on the final run, Javik and Ash got off the Normandy.

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[Morrden]

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

Morrden wrote...

Captain Shakespeare wrote...

So long as nobody can prove or disprove IT, doesn't it exist in that quantum state?

No, because quantum mechanics aren't in play here at all. Just because something cannot be proved either way doesn't mean both options are equally likely. Like I said before, I can't prove that right now there isn't a truck about to crash into my house, but that doesn't mean that it's just as likely to happen as not to happen. 

 
You state that as if it's overwhelmingly likely that one theory is true over the other, and I've seen no evidence to substantiate such a claim.

How about something like... one of them BEING the actual ending and the other being the concoction of fans desperate for something to cancel out said ending? How about a personal statement from Casey Hudson saying that the ending we got was what they intended? How about the fact that 'The Truth' DLC has been specifically denied by Bioware? How does none of that register as evidence, but seeing '1m1' on a part on the citadel does? That's crazy logic.