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[Fingertrip]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...

Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.

I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

So am I...

Mant people have given you proof. You just chose to ignore it. 

This, so many times this. Some people are in the stage of Denial when Indoctrination is so evident and clear.

[Jaze55]

MassEffected555 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

Benezia's goal was to make Saren see the error of his ways. You know that 800ish year old asari matriach of considerable power and who has always been a force of good, for 800ish years, was able to be indoctrinated so your logic fails, according to in game law and mechanics. 


"
Matriarch Benezia[/b][color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] [/color]biotic[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ]'s mother, though the two have not spoken in years. When the evidence that proved[/color]Saren Arterius[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ] attack also proved Benezia was working alongside him, it surprised those who knew her, as Benezia's actions seemed to be completely out of character.[/color] "

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination 


edit- more since its all related

Given her status as a matriarch, Benezia must have lived for almost a millennium. She was known and revered as a teacher of religion and philosophy. When she was in the 'matron' phase of her life, Benezia had a daughter, Liara T'Soni. Unusually Benezia mated with another asari, considered afaux pas[/i] in their society. (After discovering their ability to mate with any species, asari consider producing offspring with their own kind as wasteful because "nothing is gained" from pureblooded asari offspring.) Liara tellsCommander Shepard that she doesn't know who Benezia chose as her partner; she and her mother never discussed Liara's second parent, and Liara believes Benezia may have been ashamed of her choices. She raised Liara alone - not an uncommon occurrence in asari society - and was amused when Liara chose to study Protheanarchaeology, a minor rebellion against her forward-thinking mother.[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">According to Liara, Benezia felt that the asari should have a greater role in shaping galactic events. She was ]' executor and a fellow [/color]Binary Helix[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)"> ], and decided to try and guide him down a less destructive path. Benezia gave her followers a choice - only those who were willing had to accompany her. Many refused because they thought her plan was too dangerous, but others, including [/color]Shiala[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">, believed in her. With their help Benezia tried to dissuade Saren from his insanity.But the influence of the Reaper ]Benezia, aware that Shepard was on Saren's trail, brought [/color]geth[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">in crates to Noveria with her and left them to guard the garage. She also left agents such as ] behind (or recruited[/color]Captain Ventralis[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">, depending on circumstances) to stop Shepard from reaching her. After fighting geth, rachni and Benezia's followers, the squad found her waiting for them in the labs beside the Rachni Queen. Even Liara's presence in the squad, if Shepard chose to bring her, didn't stop Benezia from unleashing her ] and her commandos against them.[/color]Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly. She described the horrors of indoctrination, how it feels to be trapped in your own mind: "beating upon the glass as your hands torture and murder..." She gave Shepard the coordinates for the Mu Relay, though she couldn't tell the Commander any more of Saren's plan, and warned of Sovereign's incredible power before the indoctrination began to overcome her. Benezia managed to tell Liara that her daughter had always made her proud, but finally turned on Shepard and the squad were forced to kill her. As she lay dying, she claimed not to see the light promised in asari religion.After Noveria, Shepard can talk to Liara about what happened, but Liara claims she is all right. She prefers to remember Benezia as she was: a kind, beautiful woman who loved her

It to far up the page and I dont want anyone to miss it. 

[Jaze55]

Fingertrip wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Gunslinger01101 wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Liquoid wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Oh god not this again...

Hey don't be sad, maybe they'll actually find any proof against indoctrination interpretation this time... You know.. Instead of just saying that it's false.

I'm still waiting for someone to give actual reasoning and proof to why it's false, instead of screaming GRASPINGATSTRAWS.JPG L3L3L3L3L3L3L

So am I...

Mant people have given you proof. You just chose to ignore it. 

This, so many times this. Some people are in the stage of Denial when Indoctrination is so evident and clear.

It's funny how you quoted me and I am telling you how you are complety off the mark with the theory. 

[Candidate 88766]

This is a quote from Bioware:

"We are aware that there are concerns about a recent post from this account regarding the ending of the game. In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.

We would like to clarify that we are actively and seriously taking all player feedback into consideration and have ruled nothing out. At this time we are still collecting and considering your feedback and have not made a decision regarding requests to change the ending.

Your feedback and opinions are of the utmost importance to us. We apologize for any confusion this has caused. Our top priority regarding this discussion is to keep communication with you, our loyal fans, open and productive."

It doesn't get much plainer than that. The endings are what they are. There was no planned continuation - Bioware never left ME3 on a cliffhanger to finish it later. The consider the endings to be what they are, and are still deciding whether to change them. Not on whether to continue them, but whether to change them. The endings are the endings of the story, not this cliffhanger that the theory relies on them being.

There are no plans to continue the story. The believed the endings of ME3 to be just that - the endings. And now they are deciding whether to change them.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 19 mars 2012 - 06:37 .

[TheDarthrob]

One thing I remember that may support this theory is when after Shepard was hit by the beam, Harbinger flew away with the yellow eyes. He uses this when he was controlling the Collectors, so Shepard was probably being indoctrinated.

[Xerkysz]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

This is a quote from Bioware:

In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.

They had planned for indoctrination, they don't plan to change that.

Next.

Modifié par Xerkysz, 19 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[ArkkAngel007]

Tsantilas wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

This is I direct contradiction to the Indoctrination theory though.  Clearly his goals can be manipulated towards the reapers if the synthesis and control choices are the reaper's goals.  So... yes he can? Either that or he's not being indoctrinated.  Anyway I think I might have to make a post summing up all the arguments made over the last few pages because we're starting to repeat the same responses over and over....

Sorry I edited with a follow up.  It addresses that.

As for Benezia, her indoctrination is different from Saren's.  Hers was apparently more through force than through subliminal suggestion.  She was also conscious through the process, unlike Shepard if an attempt was taking place.  Her goal also wasn't to stop Saren necessarily, just to redirect him.  The Reapers could manipulate that if they wished to, according to what indoctrination is in canon.

However, again, Benezia's indoctrination was much more forceful, though not enough to break her into a useless form.

[Vikali]

TheDarthrob wrote...

One thing I remember that may support this theory is when after Shepard was hit by the beam, Harbinger flew away with the yellow eyes. He uses this when he was controlling the Collectors, so Shepard was probably being indoctrinated.

He uses his derpy smiley face in the arrival discussion too.

[Jaze55]

TheDarthrob wrote...

One thing I remember that may support this theory is when after Shepard was hit by the beam, Harbinger flew away with the yellow eyes. He uses this when he was controlling the Collectors, so Shepard was probably being indoctrinated.

OK so then Shepards fate is to:

Become a Husk
Become a brain dead vegi
Commit suicide
be killed
wind up insane and in a psych ward


That what you guys really want huh? Those are THE ONLY possible outcomes if you get indoctrinated according to in game law. 

[Candidate 88766]

[quote]Xerkysz wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]This is a quote from Bioware:
[quote In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.
[/quote][/quote]

They had planned for indoctrination, they don't plan to change that.

Next.

[/quote]Thats not what the quote said.

Go back and read it.

They said that they're still deciding on whether to change the endings or not. They never had any plans to continue it - which means the indoc theory must be wrong, unless you actually believe that Bioware would end ME3 with the Reapers still undefeated and still on Earth no matter what you do.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 19 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Ricvenart]

I believe or want to no matter the ending but I do have a problem with img 2.

TIM is either indoctrinated or Full of implants that allow him to indoctrinate others, either way a "Reaper" presense will be detected by the VI.
Clearly though by that point the VI has in fact informed TIM of the Catalyst.
So surely the Security protocols for telling Shepard (Just starting to enter "readable" levels of indoctrination) would already be overwritten.

I agree it can be a sign of something, he was ready to tell Shepard about it all on Thessia but theres a change, a change that shouldn't be unless for a purpose. He's willing to risk it because a) Reapers already know thanks to TIM and Shepard has done more then anyone else, shows promise of resisting and truly being the thing that breaks the cycle (which in a way I almost hope he turns out to be the catalyst now). But the above just seems abit circular...though not as much as the Starchilds.

[ShaneP]

If they'd planned to have Shepard indoctrinated, it would have been made FAR more obvious. It doesn't really matter what Bioware actually say, indoctrinationists have been interpreting it as Bioware saying that shep was indoctrinated. It's becoming like a religious cult.

[Midnight Eternal]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

This is a quote from Bioware:

"We are aware that there are concerns about a recent post from this account regarding the ending of the game. In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.

We would like to clarify that we are actively and seriously taking all player feedback into consideration and have ruled nothing out. At this time we are still collecting and considering your feedback and have not made a decision regarding requests to change the ending.

Your feedback and opinions are of the utmost importance to us. We apologize for any confusion this has caused. Our top priority regarding this discussion is to keep communication with you, our loyal fans, open and productive."

It doesn't get much plainer than that. The endings are what they are. There was no planned continuation - Bioware never left ME3 on a cliffhanger to finish it later. The consider the endings to be what they are, and are still deciding whether to change them. Not on whether to continue them, but whether to change them. The endings are the endings of the story, not this cliffhanger that the theory relies on them being.

There are no plans to continue the story. The believed the endings of ME3 to be just that - the endings. And now they are deciding whether to change them.

Makes enough sense, but the sense of grief, rage, etc. has to be directed somewhere doesn't it? I myself don't buy the theory but if it will allow other people to get on with their lives over a game, move into the stage of acceptance, so be it.

[ArkkAngel007]

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]Xerkysz wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]This is a quote from Bioware:
[quote In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.
[/quote][/quote]

They had planned for indoctrination, they don't plan to change that.

Next.

[/quote]Thats not what the quote said.

Go back and read it.

They said that they're still deciding on whether to change the endings or not. They never had any plans to continue it - which means the indoc theory must be wrong, unless you actually believe that Bioware would end ME3 with the Reapers still undefeated and still on Earth no matter what you do.

[/quote]

That's not what the quote says either, that the ending is what it literally is at face-value.  Again, it doesn't need to be changed or added to, even with IT.  

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Xerkysz wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't "fail".  A strong will can fight it for moments of clarity but if you're indoctrinated you are indoctrinated.

There's 2 results when you attempt something, what are they?

The people supporting the Indoctrination Theory seem to have an incorrect (as far as established canon goes) understanding of how Indoctrination works.  The reapers do not try to convert people to their side.  They simply alter their way of thinking.  It is not brainwashing in the traditional sense, where a successfull will save breaks the effect.  The subject simply starts thinking the reapers are right and eventually become completely under their control.  Not a single character in the narrative has ever successfuly broken Indoctrination permanently.  Those who managed to temporarily break the grasp only lived long enough to appologize before commiting suicide or being shot.

Yet again, as expressed before, Shepard's goals can't be manipulated towards the Reapers.  His goal is straight: Stop the Reapers, and up until the ending choice, Destroy the Reapers.  There's no maneuverability there.  Saren and TIM had alterior goals that didn't set them for or against the Reapers directly.  The Reapers became a means to an end for them, and always have been.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, only seeks to stop them.  No compromises.  No excuses.

This is I direct contradiction to the Indoctrination theory though.  Clearly his goals can be manipulated towards the reapers if the synthesis and control choices are the reaper's goals.  So... yes he can? Either that or he's not being indoctrinated.  Anyway I think I might have to make a post summing up all the arguments made over the last few pages because we're starting to repeat the same responses over and over....

Sorry I edited with a follow up.  It addresses that.

As for Benezia, her indoctrination is different from Saren's.  Hers was apparently more through force than through subliminal suggestion.  She was also conscious through the process, unlike Shepard if an attempt was taking place.  Her goal also wasn't to stop Saren necessarily, just to redirect him.  The Reapers could manipulate that if they wished to, according to what indoctrination is in canon.

However, again, Benezia's indoctrination was much more forceful, though not enough to break her into a useless form.

Where does it say anywhere Benezia's indoc was more forceful?

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I still haven't heard anything about what happens to Shepard after the Indoc?

So what happens after does he:

Go insane
Become no longer able to take care of himself
kill himself
have a freind kill him
gets locked in a psych ward
turn into a husk

because according to the games laws and mechanics these are the only possible outcomes.

SO, what one do we have to look forward to for our beloved Shepard?

He is not indoctrinated if you choose the destroy option. Otherwise he is indoctrinated. I don't know what happens after he is indoctrinated, they don't give us any info.

[Candidate 88766]

[quote]ArkkAngel007 wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]Xerkysz wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]This is a quote from Bioware:
[quote In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.
[/quote][/quote]

They had planned for indoctrination, they don't plan to change that.

Next.

[/quote]Thats not what the quote said.

Go back and read it.

They said that they're still deciding on whether to change the endings or not. They never had any plans to continue it - which means the indoc theory must be wrong, unless you actually believe that Bioware would end ME3 with the Reapers still undefeated and still on Earth no matter what you do.

[/quote]

That's not what the quote says either, that the ending is what it literally is at face-value.  Again, it doesn't need to be changed or added to, even with IT.  



[/quote]But the indoc theory relies on the idea that Bioware is going to continue the story, not change it. The fact that they are even considering changing it shows that they don't have any plans for continuation, which the theory is wholly reliant on.

[Jaze55]

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I still haven't heard anything about what happens to Shepard after the Indoc?

So what happens after does he:

Go insane
Become no longer able to take care of himself
kill himself
have a freind kill him
gets locked in a psych ward
turn into a husk

because according to the games laws and mechanics these are the only possible outcomes.

SO, what one do we have to look forward to for our beloved Shepard?

He is not indoctrinated if you choose the destroy option. Otherwise he is indoctrinated. I don't know what happens after he is indoctrinated, they don't give us any info.

Indoctrination never fails througout the course of the series, if it does on Shepard it breaking all the rules and then space magic is valid.

And they do give info, again stated clearly in the games description of indoc. I posted it already I am not posting it again, google Indoc Process, read the wiki and then realize you are wrong. 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 19 mars 2012 - 06:45 .

[Candidate 88766]

Midnight Eternal wrote...

Makes enough sense, but the sense of grief, rage, etc. has to be directed somewhere doesn't it? I myself don't buy the theory but if it will allow other people to get on with their lives over a game, move into the stage of acceptance, so be it.

I have no problem with people believing it. Hell, I'm using my imagination to ignore the sequence with the Catalyst child, and the Normandy crash, so I don't begrudge people doing the same.

I do have a problem with people parading the theory around as fact though.

[Syrellaris]

I have come to the conclusion that is the theory behind the ending. There is simply to much evidence and facts to state otherwise. The story ain't finished yet and I am gonne wait for the ending that I am sure is soon to come more shepard against!

Stargazer : "Tell me a nother story of the shepard!"

[Zhant]

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]ArkkAngel007 wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]Xerkysz wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

[quote]This is a quote from Bioware:
[quote In this post it was stated that at this time we do not have plans to change the ending.
[/quote][/quote]

They had planned for indoctrination, they don't plan to change that.

Next.

[/quote]Thats not what the quote said.

Go back and read it.

They said that they're still deciding on whether to change the endings or not. They never had any plans to continue it - which means the indoc theory must be wrong, unless you actually believe that Bioware would end ME3 with the Reapers still undefeated and still on Earth no matter what you do.

[/quote]

That's not what the quote says either, that the ending is what it literally is at face-value.  Again, it doesn't need to be changed or added to, even with IT.  



[/quote]But the indoc theory relies on the idea that Bioware is going to continue the story, not change it. The fact that they are even considering changing it shows that they don't have any plans for continuation, which the theory is wholly reliant on.
[/quote]

hell if the DLC sells, they can let shepard/ mass relay survive, and blow them up in another novel or something

[Candidate 88766]

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I still haven't heard anything about what happens to Shepard after the Indoc?

So what happens after does he:

Go insane
Become no longer able to take care of himself
kill himself
have a freind kill him
gets locked in a psych ward
turn into a husk

because according to the games laws and mechanics these are the only possible outcomes.

SO, what one do we have to look forward to for our beloved Shepard?

He is not indoctrinated if you choose the destroy option. Otherwise he is indoctrinated. I don't know what happens after he is indoctrinated, they don't give us any info.

If he's not indoctrinated, then why is he hallucinating?

Indoctrination causes permanent changes to the subject's mind. This cannot be undone with willpower.

[Vikali]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I do have a problem with people parading the theory around as fact though.

This I agree with wholly.

[Ricvenart]

ShaneP wrote...

If they'd planned to have Shepard indoctrinated, it would have been made FAR more obvious. It doesn't really matter what Bioware actually say, indoctrinationists have been interpreting it as Bioware saying that shep was indoctrinated. It's becoming like a religious cult.

So we don't like the endings as they are and we are not allowed to have a theory (which does play into Biowares plan anyway) that allows us to like it either?

They couldn't implement indoctrination in the way they wanted to just because they cut that doesn't mean they didn't reintroduce it another way. Or leave clues for "lots of speculation for everyone".... Biggest issue I have with that crowd is that they actually claim they know exactly what Bioware intended and even make claims contrary to what they have said...like we are not allowed to discuss an idea.

[Jaze55]

Syrellaris wrote...

I have come to the conclusion that is the theory behind the ending. There is simply to much evidence and facts to state otherwise. The story ain't finished yet and I am gonne wait for the ending that I am sure is soon to come more shepard against!

Stargazer : "Tell me a nother story of the shepard!"

Yes and then it tell you to "Continue the adventure through DLC"

Anothe story about Shepard can mean ME1 or 2 or a Take Back Omega DLC or a pacman DLC. 

But of course it will be twisted to only mean Shep is indoctrinated just so it supports your theory.