758 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

 My thinking at this point? Of course it's indoctrination. Nothing else makes sense, logically. What StarChild says runs completely counter to everything else you know about the Mass Effect universe. Either the writers lost their minds in the last 5 minutes or it's indoctrination.

However, and this is the point where I sort of fall into post-ME3 related sadness, I almost think the writers got too clever for their own good. Because 1) everything depends on what happens next. If Shepard breaks free with destroy, keeps fighting, and so on, then it's like we got part of the game, but not all of it. the DLC could go on to be amazing, but it does sting that we couldn't get the whole game all at once.

and 2) for the folks who chose the other endings, they basically 'chose poorly' to quote indiana jones and the search for the holy grail. they burn up and die and there's going to be quite a bit of frustration over that. starchild argues well and he took in a lot of gamers - i think there's going to be some serious anger if it turns out destroy is the only way out, because people will feel tricked.

Indoctrination is the only logical answer, I find. But the emotional response will be anything but logical.

[Bane]

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

[beyzend]

trekker1701 wrote...

I just don't like the indoctrination theory. Never has Shepard shown signs of being indoctrinated. None of his crewmates have shown signs of indoctrination, and they've been where he has been. The dreams (nightmares) of the child dying is to me just the heaviness of the burden placed upon him to save earth and the galaxy. Midnight Eternal is right once you are indoctrinated, you are done man, at least from what I have seen. I think this thread was started out the by original poster that he thought Harbinger had started something in ME2, but to me it was never about indoctrinating him but rather "preparing him for ascension". Yes, Shepard has had contact with Reapers several times, but he has never had prolonged exposure, and he always ends up destroying it in the end.

Another argument is that in order for you to continue from that point, then everyone for their story to continue has to choose the destroy ending because you don't wake up at the end for synthesis or control.

I don't know, this is all just frustrating I guess. It's so hard for any of us because we don't have all the facts and we are trying to fill in the holes without them.

Right, the theory is really just people's interpretation of the ending. The theory is just people extrapolating on the plot holes. Yes, there are plot holes; it’s just not evidence supporting a planned continuation of the ending with indoctrination as the way out, though. Not saying I don’t wish this theory wasn’t true because I didn’t like the ending that much even if is sort of “artsy.” It was too short and not enough explosion--I mean action gaming explosion not colored explosions. lol. It didn’t make a lot of sense, but it’s an ending. I may not like their vision, but it’s their game.

>5. Scars on my face when I'm full Paragon?

So what? Another explanation would be that’s how they setup the scene. Neither one is more logical than the other.

>6. Anderson at the shifting walls, which is on the other side of the door. First he's behind you now he's in front of you?

Exactly, shifting walls. It seems like the place can reconfigure the environment, so it’s not a stretch that a path can be reconfigured. Again, speculations.

>7. The control panel is in view as soon as you pop your head over the top of the ramp. Where's Anderson?

reconfigured space. Both are hurt and shell shocked. Confusion, etc etc.

>8. Human writing on the Citadel?

Not enough information. Maybe oversight. Maybe they took short cuts with the texturing. Another speculation.

"Yes - because the Reapers know that you don't have a chance in defeating them with low EMS. Higher EMS, they're going to put the effort in to indoctrinating you. That's why they give you the other choices with higher EMS, they distort you from choosing the Destroy option. This is why TIM's was coloured Paragon, and Andersons Renegade, to create confusion.”

More speculation. It could as easily be explained with the rushed ending speculation. Or it made sense to them when they made it ending.

….

I mean as someone mentioned early, the indoc theory can be explained wtih “they screwed up the ending,” so you are merely interpreting. It’s just a theory without any (actual) evidence.

You girls are trying to lay the blame for the endings on us instead of BioWare.

Don’t get mad bro. Who cares what the haters think.

Continue to hold the line, I support you from my U.N observer post. [/b] 

Modifié par beyzend, 19 mars 2012 - 08:10 .

[Mann42]

MassEffected555 wrote...
I will paste it again just for you
Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.

Shepard can't ignore it. If it is a hallucination sequence, you're certainly forced to experience it and face it. Shepard is hearing whispers in his/her dreams every time we get a dream sequence in ME3. 

We have never seen any of the 'subtly' indoctrinated characters at the point of indoctrination. We always see them or hear from them AFTER they've become indoctrinated. There's no coincidence that the choices of Control or Synthesis are supported by the arguments of TIM and Saren over the course of ME1 and ME2. 

As a player, you've been subtly indoctrinated since the first game. Most Shepards want to save everyone, friends and family, even at the cost of destroying the Reapers.

Shepard is at the center of galactic events, causing most players of Shepard to believe he is invincible, and special. Saren, the Illusive Man, and Saren all thought they were heroes... and they were, in their own rights, until they chose poorly.

Most Shepards have experienced first hand that synthetics aren't that bad through the Geth and EDI (both of which are currently based on Reaper code), so the idea of destroying them all sounds like genocide, and results in the Destroy option sounding like the only 'bad' one.

Every character and attachment you've made in the game is there to make it harder for you to do the right thing. Listen to Javik's dialogue throughout the game (if you have the DLC). He practically comes out and tells you that this will be your downfall. 

You certainly can't ignore it. In fact, if the indoctrination theory turns out to be true, I'm sure Shepard doesn't have a lot of time to fight it off and destroy the Reapers in the end. He will most likely have to sacrifice himself, and if I have to choose to shoot myself Saren style to save the galaxy after choosing the Control ending, I will commend Bioware for having the biggest cajones in the video game industry (after I spend a few days cursing their name for releasing the game with an unfinished ending). 

Modifié par nexworks, 19 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[Primula Nightfall]

MassEffected555:


I have two questions for you.

I apologize if happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this?

Modifié par Primula Nightfall, 19 mars 2012 - 08:14 .

[Mann42]

sagequeen wrote...

 My thinking at this point? Of course it's indoctrination. Nothing else makes sense, logically. What StarChild says runs completely counter to everything else you know about the Mass Effect universe. Either the writers lost their minds in the last 5 minutes or it's indoctrination.

However, and this is the point where I sort of fall into post-ME3 related sadness, I almost think the writers got too clever for their own good. Because 1) everything depends on what happens next. If Shepard breaks free with destroy, keeps fighting, and so on, then it's like we got part of the game, but not all of it. the DLC could go on to be amazing, but it does sting that we couldn't get the whole game all at once.

and 2) for the folks who chose the other endings, they basically 'chose poorly' to quote indiana jones and the search for the holy grail. they burn up and die and there's going to be quite a bit of frustration over that. starchild argues well and he took in a lot of gamers - i think there's going to be some serious anger if it turns out destroy is the only way out, because people will feel tricked.

Indoctrination is the only logical answer, I find. But the emotional response will be anything but logical.

Do you notice how after you beat the game, it kicks you back out to your last save before you went on the Cerberus Headquarters mission? It basically resets you to right before the ending missions, even pushing your play clock back in time. Nowhere does it lock you into your decision. 

I have a feeling its because, when and if they release Epilogue DLC, they want you to be able to go back and experience what happened regardless of whether you pick to be Indoctrinated or not. I have a feeling that you'll have an ending to play regardless of choice, but the results will be drastically different (especially if they're saving the end for its own DLC). Since there's no save after final completion, it lets you re-do your Shepard's ending if you don't like what you picked the first time.

[Grusome11]

nexworks wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

And then the only possible outcomes for Shepard are

Turning into a Husk
Suicide
Brain dead vegi
Insane


According to in game lore and mechanics. Clearly states indoc effects are irreversable so thanks a lot for making an ending where Shepard turns into a Husk, as I am sure that's what everyone always wanted for Shepard.

And again, if Shepard is magically to defeat indoctrination, when no one in Mass Effects history has been able to do that then space magic is 100% valid.

Really all this theory supports is that space magic is OK since its fine to break all the laws in the final 10 minutes to allow Shep to be the only one in the history or ME to break completely free of Indoc. 

Oh, I don't think Shepard actually becomes Indoctrinated until he picks Control or Synthesis. He doesn't magically defeat it; The Player, as an agent of choice for Commander Shepard (the theme of the game), have a 1 in 3 chance of not becomming indoctrinated, and ultimately you get to choose. 

Saren was able to choose at first. So was Benezia. She even says in ME1 "It was subtle at first." When you listen to her explain how she teamed up with Saren, she admits that she started with good intentions. She wanted to find out what he was up to and see if she could stop him from doing anything bad. When Saren talks about his own indoctrination, he has nothing but the best of intentions. He's trying to save everyone. Even the Illusive Man ultimately wants the best for Humanity. The path to indoctrination is paved with good intentions. 

Both Saren and Benezia recover their original minds and have lucid moments as you talk to them, so it's clear that willpower does play a factor. These characters were able to resist. I see no reason why the player, in a game centered on choice and player agency, wouldn't be given some chance to resist. 

And more spectacularly (from a narrative standpoint), present the choices to you in the exact same way the Reapers would want you to see them: A sympathetic, godlike figure telling you that the one option you've spent 3 games trying to accomplish is BAD, and that you can save everyone if you only believe in the same things that TIM, Saren, and Benezia believed. 

Perform an exercise in your head. Imagine that in the Control and Synthesis endings, Shepard didn't die, and was forced to face his friends and explain what he did.

"I control the Reapers now, but I'm stronger than the Illusive Man and the Reapers said I could totally do it because I'm not Indoctrinated, so it should be okay."

"Don't worry, I forcibly overwrote everyone's DNA with synthetic reaper nanobots so that we can live in peace with synthetics because the Reaper Brain AI said it was the only way."

Whether you are truly indoctrinated or not, there is only one right answer to end the Reapers forever, and it's Destroy. Anything else is a concession. Anything else and organics lose. 

+1 for this post and your earlier one.

[scrapmetals]

To people saying Bioware wouldn't release a game without it's full ending - I don't know if Bioware would do that, no.

But I know EA has done it before.

[Jaze55]

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

Right, so exactly which PART of Shepards mind did he save? Because even with that part of benezias mind she still did a lot of terrible things with Saren in ME1. That small part of her brain that allowed her to break conrol VERY BRIEFLY really didn't let her do her own thing.

All that did was give her 2 minutes to help Shep, then BAM she was trying to kill them all again. Unless all of ME3 happened in 2 minutes, is that what you are trying to prove to me here?

[Vigil_N7]

Indoctrination may make sense, however it wasn't planned by bioware for certain. If Shepard was indoctrinated, and you break that indoctrination, then the game should've continued. However, it doesn't, and it ends the same way whether or not you would've broken that indoctrination anyway.

So, if Bioware did intend it, then we got an unfinished game with an unfinished ending. It also leaves us with several questions. So shepard broke the indoctrination, the reaper invasion is still going on, TIM hasn't been dealt with, the catalyst's effect on the crucible remains an unknown, what happened to your squadmates is also unknown, etc, etc etc.

Modifié par Vigil_N7, 19 mars 2012 - 08:17 .

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Wrong. I have mentioned why this is wrong in a number of other posts.

[Jaze55]

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Wrong. I have mentioned why this is wrong in a number of other posts.

No all you say is "Shep is the Hero so it's ok to bend the rules for him"

But for some reason its not ok for them to bend the rules with the space magic. Yeah sure that's fair. 

[warcry08]

That youtube link pretty much sums it up. I think someone here said, that Bioware is either in panic mode or coming up with new dlc. One possibility is of course that they plan to keep this way, but this would damage them too much. This is only my theory.

Modifié par warcry08, 19 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[ArkkAngel007]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

Right, so exactly which PART of Shepards mind did he save? Because even with that part of benezias mind she still did a lot of terrible things with Saren in ME1. That small part of her brain that allowed her to break conrol VERY BRIEFLY really didn't let her do her own thing.

All that did was give her 2 minutes to help Shep, then BAM she was trying to kill them all again. Unless all of ME3 happened in 2 minutes, is that what you are trying to prove to me here?

We don't know what happens within the mind in an unconsious state though.  It doesn't break with established canon, at least not in the way the core of the theory is presented.  If it was BioWare's meaning behind the endings, then it would be their explanation on the canon that would either supplement the established canon, retcon it, or blow it all out of the water in some ridiculous reasoning.  

No one here is trying to change the canon with IT.  But it's a situation that we have no real precedents for.  We know what happens if you have Reaper tech installed in you, when you are inside a fully conscious Reaper, when you are in contact with Reaper tech...all of these while conscious.  However, we don't know how the mind deals in the situation that Shepard is possibly in, unconscious and in close-proximity to a Reaper fully aware of Shepard's presence.

[Rob_K1]

Nexworks,

What did Javik say out of curiosity? If you can remember any of the lines. I've not played the DLC yet, as I'm waiting to see if the developers come out with ending DLC and whether it's free or not (doubtful).

[jaze89]

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Modifié par jaze89, 19 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Jaze55]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

Right, so exactly which PART of Shepards mind did he save? Because even with that part of benezias mind she still did a lot of terrible things with Saren in ME1. That small part of her brain that allowed her to break conrol VERY BRIEFLY really didn't let her do her own thing.

All that did was give her 2 minutes to help Shep, then BAM she was trying to kill them all again. Unless all of ME3 happened in 2 minutes, is that what you are trying to prove to me here?

We don't know what happens within the mind in an unconsious state though.  It doesn't break with established canon, at least not in the way the core of the theory is presented.  If it was BioWare's meaning behind the endings, then it would be their explanation on the canon that would either supplement the established canon, retcon it, or blow it all out of the water in some ridiculous reasoning.  

No one here is trying to change the canon with IT.  But it's a situation that we have no real precedents for.  We know what happens if you have Reaper tech installed in you, when you are inside a fully conscious Reaper, when you are in contact with Reaper tech...all of these while conscious.  However, we don't know how the mind deals in the situation that Shepard is possibly in, unconscious and in close-proximity to a Reaper fully aware of Shepard's presence.

Then it would have happened at Project Rho in Arrival since he was unconscious for 2 days next to that reaper artifact

So once again, that would make as much sense as what we already got. 

[Mann42]

MassEffected555 wrote...
Then it would have happened at Project Rho in Arrival since he was unconscious for 2 days next to that reaper artifact

So once again, that would make as much sense as what we already got.

Laying unconscious next to a Reaper artifact for 2 days is significantly different from laying unconscious in front of Harbinger, under a sky filled with Reapers, with the Reaper Control Machine, aka The Citadel, floating in orbit above you connected to the earth by an energy conduit less than 100 yards away. 

Modifié par nexworks, 19 mars 2012 - 08:35 .

[Bane]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

Right, so exactly which PART of Shepards mind did he save? Because even with that part of benezias mind she still did a lot of terrible things with Saren in ME1. That small part of her brain that allowed her to break conrol VERY BRIEFLY really didn't let her do her own thing.

All that did was give her 2 minutes to help Shep, then BAM she was trying to kill them all again. Unless all of ME3 happened in 2 minutes, is that what you are trying to prove to me here?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying indoctrination takes time to complete and can be resisted along the way.

Benezia was under indoctrination for an undetermined amount of time before we met her. She was able to resist at least partially but even she could not resist it completely, even with her mental strength.

Shepard on the other hand, had been under indoctrination only from the point when Harbinger attacked him in London to the point when he decides control, destroy or synthesis. He could choose to indoctrinate himself by choosing control or synthesis or he could resist and choose destroy.

If he chooses to continue to resist he wakes up in the rubble of Harbinger's attack. He has not been indoctrinated at this point so there's no reason for him to end up in one of the states you keep reposting over and over again.

Modifié par Bane_v2, 19 mars 2012 - 08:35 .

[Jaze55]

nexworks wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...
Then it would have happened at Project Rho in Arrival since he was unconscious for 2 days next to that reaper artifact

So once again, that would make as much sense as what we already got.

Laying unconscious next to a Reaper artifact for 2 days is significantly different from laying unconscious in front of Harbinger, under a sky filled with Reapers, with the Reaper Control Machine, aka The Citadel, floating in orbit above you connected by a conduit less than 100 yards away. 

Yeah you are right it would be 100 times stronger in your example which would mean Shepard would expereince the rapid effects of indoctrination.

Thanks bro, that helped support me I appreciate the help. 

[Jaze55]

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

I did and according to in game lore and mechanics those are THE only possible outcomes for someone that has been indoctrinated. It is irreversable once it happens, and they do not try to do it they always succeed. According to in game lore and mechanics. 

EDIT- and where are you getting Benezia resisted for "as long as she did"? She was helping Saren the entire time we hear about her, she only resisted for like 2 minutes when she killed herself? Did you even play ME1?

Yes, those are the possible outcomes of full indoctrination. You have yet to acknowledge that perhaps Shepard was not fully indoctrinated like I put forth in one of my other posts. You're completely ignoring that part of the discussion.

It says she resisted right in the Benezia wiki article you've pasted in here. "Finally Benezia, who had used her incredible mental strength to keep a part of her mind free of indoctrination, managed to break from Saren's control very briefly." 

Right, so exactly which PART of Shepards mind did he save? Because even with that part of benezias mind she still did a lot of terrible things with Saren in ME1. That small part of her brain that allowed her to break conrol VERY BRIEFLY really didn't let her do her own thing.

All that did was give her 2 minutes to help Shep, then BAM she was trying to kill them all again. Unless all of ME3 happened in 2 minutes, is that what you are trying to prove to me here?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying indoctrination takes time to complete and can be resisted along the way.

Benezia was under indoctrination for an undetermined amount of time before we met her. She was able to resist at least partially but even she could not resist it completely, even with her mental strength.

Shepard on the other hand, had been under indoctrination only from the point when Harbinger attacked him in London to the point when he decides control, destroy or synthesis. He could choose to indoctrinate himself by choosing control or synthesis or he could resist and choose destroy.

If he chooses to continue to resist he wakes up in the rubble of Harbinger's attack. He has not been indoctrinated at this point so there's no reason for him to end up in one of the states you keep reposting over and over again.

Ok so he is under indoc or not? Because once you are indoctrinated you are indoctrinated irreversably. There is no escape. Clearly stated by the laws and mechanics of the game. 

[Rusty0918]

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

[Jaze55]

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.  


Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Wrong. I have mentioned why this is wrong in a number of other posts.

No all you say is "Shep is the Hero so it's ok to bend the rules for him"

But for some reason its not ok for them to bend the rules with the space magic. Yeah sure that's fair. 

Read what I wrote again.

This is a story. You speak all the time about the "rules" regarding indoctrination. There are no rules. What you refer to as rules are just what various characters in the game think about how indoctrination works. Remember, this is a story, there is no indocrtination. It does not follow rules, its just something make up by a bunch of unwashed writers in Edmonton.

And we have not seen how indoc really works, just have had it described by people who were indoctrinated, who could have been lying or just wrong.

My point about Shep being a hero is that heroes do amazing, impossible things. Even if there is a rule about how indoc works, Shep can bend or even break it because he is the Hero of the story.

I am starting to think you are just trolling me. Are you not aware of what writers do in their stories with their heroes? If Shep is able to resist indoctrination, it will be similar to the kind of "impossible" things heroes have been doing in stories since the begining of time.

How do you not get this? Am I going crazy here? It's not me, it's him, right?

[IronSabbath88]

I still think that forcing everyone into being part synthetic is a much more selfish decision than destroying the reapers and supposedly letting the geth die.

Sure, you're committing genocide against a race of synthetics, but you're not forcing them into becoming something they might not want to be.

I'd like to see full on proof that BioWare meant the Synthesis ending as the perfect ending, because I got it with only 3500 or so war assets. That's far from the perfect ending. Especially when you need 4000 or 5000 to get this top secret ending from the Destroy side only.

Seriously. Think about it. They KNOW what they're doing.. that much is clear.