758 réponses à ce sujet

[Mann42]

MassEffected555 wrote...

nexworks wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...
Then it would have happened at Project Rho in Arrival since he was unconscious for 2 days next to that reaper artifact

So once again, that would make as much sense as what we already got.

Laying unconscious next to a Reaper artifact for 2 days is significantly different from laying unconscious in front of Harbinger, under a sky filled with Reapers, with the Reaper Control Machine, aka The Citadel, floating in orbit above you connected by a conduit less than 100 yards away. 

Yeah you are right it would be 100 times stronger in your example which would mean Shepard would expereince the rapid effects of indoctrination.

Thanks bro, that helped support me I appreciate the help. 

Shepard would only experience as much Indoctrination as the Reapers intended. Remember, being slowly indoctrinated allows them to use you, like they used TIM, Saren, and Benezia. Quick indoctrination leads to gibbering insane husks, but time and again its been shown that the Reapers prefer to turn powerful and high ranking sentients slowly so they can be utilized. 

It's explained this way in every codex from here to ME1 to ME3. You don't force an indoctrination if you want to use the target for more than being a Husk. 

Shepard would be infinitely more valuable to the Reapers as a subtly indoctrinated agent than dead. If they killed Shepard, he'd be a martyr and the organics might fight even harder. 

But Indoctrinated subtly, so that nobody can tell the difference? Yeah, that'll speed up the process by a hundred years when he turns traitor. But it has to be subtle.

So subtle he doesn't even realize he's been indoctrinated. So subtle it's almost like a dream...

Modifié par nexworks, 19 mars 2012 - 08:44 .

[Jaze55]

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Wrong. I have mentioned why this is wrong in a number of other posts.

No all you say is "Shep is the Hero so it's ok to bend the rules for him"

But for some reason its not ok for them to bend the rules with the space magic. Yeah sure that's fair. 

Read what I wrote again.

This is a story. You speak all the time about the "rules" regarding indoctrination. There are no rules. What you refer to as rules are just what various characters in the game think about how indoctrination works. Remember, this is a story, there is no indocrtination. It does not follow rules, its just something make up by a bunch of unwashed writers in Edmonton.

And we have not seen how indoc really works, just have had it described by people who were indoctrinated, who could have been lying or just wrong.

My point about Shep being a hero is that heroes do amazing, impossible things. Even if there is a rule about how indoc works, Shep can bend or even break it because he is the Hero of the story.

I am starting to think you are just trolling me. Are you not aware of what writers do in their stories with their heroes? If Shep is able to resist indoctrination, it will be similar to the kind of "impossible" things heroes have been doing in stories since the begining of time.

How do you not get this? Am I going crazy here? It's not me, it's him, right?

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are lying in the game? You mean the codex that Bioware wrote about them, so Bioware is lying? 

I think you are trolling ME to be honest. You keep saying the same **** over and over but when I tell you if they allow Shepard to do someting NO ONE ELSE in the histroy of the game is able to do you might as well make Shepard turn into God.

[Grusome11]

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

[Demarco09]

nexworks wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 My thinking at this point? Of course it's indoctrination. Nothing else makes sense, logically. What StarChild says runs completely counter to everything else you know about the Mass Effect universe. Either the writers lost their minds in the last 5 minutes or it's indoctrination.

However, and this is the point where I sort of fall into post-ME3 related sadness, I almost think the writers got too clever for their own good. Because 1) everything depends on what happens next. If Shepard breaks free with destroy, keeps fighting, and so on, then it's like we got part of the game, but not all of it. the DLC could go on to be amazing, but it does sting that we couldn't get the whole game all at once.

and 2) for the folks who chose the other endings, they basically 'chose poorly' to quote indiana jones and the search for the holy grail. they burn up and die and there's going to be quite a bit of frustration over that. starchild argues well and he took in a lot of gamers - i think there's going to be some serious anger if it turns out destroy is the only way out, because people will feel tricked.

Indoctrination is the only logical answer, I find. But the emotional response will be anything but logical.

Do you notice how after you beat the game, it kicks you back out to your last save before you went on the Cerberus Headquarters mission? It basically resets you to right before the ending missions, even pushing your play clock back in time. Nowhere does it lock you into your decision. 

I have a feeling its because, when and if they release Epilogue DLC, they want you to be able to go back and experience what happened regardless of whether you pick to be Indoctrinated or not. I have a feeling that you'll have an ending to play regardless of choice, but the results will be drastically different (especially if they're saving the end for its own DLC). Since there's no save after final completion, it lets you re-do your Shepard's ending if you don't like what you picked the first time.

I have yet to finish my game, I have two playthroughs that I stopped right before TIM.  I refuse to end it until i know for sure.  The reason I say that is if what you said Nex is correct.  You actually really make a lot of damn sense.  Its a possibility for sure. I never looked at it that way, and I am glad you mentioned that. VERY good point!  Not sure if what you said was already stated, but this is the first time I saw that information. Thank you 

[Mann42]

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

I don't think that means much. On the 360, the right trigger is Renegade (since it's the trigger finger), and the left trigger is Paragon. I think they swap it on the PC because you generally use your left button for shooting. (Basically, the button that shoots is the Renegade button). 

[Jaze55]

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

Hmm maybe the same reason Shep get shot in the shoulder by Maurader Shields but winds up holding his stomach? A mistake in coding?

[Malanek]

Also people please vote in the poll in my signature if you have not already done so. I want more numbers.

[IronSabbath88]

I could also point out that when you pick Destroy, Shepard seems to get a second wind and looks determined when shooting. In Control, he drops his gun. In Synthesis, he again, drops his gun. Could be symbolizing of his losing his will to fight. Then again, I could be looking too much into things, but that's my take.

[Grusome11]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Wrong. I have mentioned why this is wrong in a number of other posts.

No all you say is "Shep is the Hero so it's ok to bend the rules for him"

But for some reason its not ok for them to bend the rules with the space magic. Yeah sure that's fair. 

Read what I wrote again.

This is a story. You speak all the time about the "rules" regarding indoctrination. There are no rules. What you refer to as rules are just what various characters in the game think about how indoctrination works. Remember, this is a story, there is no indocrtination. It does not follow rules, its just something make up by a bunch of unwashed writers in Edmonton.

And we have not seen how indoc really works, just have had it described by people who were indoctrinated, who could have been lying or just wrong.

My point about Shep being a hero is that heroes do amazing, impossible things. Even if there is a rule about how indoc works, Shep can bend or even break it because he is the Hero of the story.

I am starting to think you are just trolling me. Are you not aware of what writers do in their stories with their heroes? If Shep is able to resist indoctrination, it will be similar to the kind of "impossible" things heroes have been doing in stories since the begining of time.

How do you not get this? Am I going crazy here? It's not me, it's him, right?

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are lying in the game? You mean the codex that Bioware wrote about them, so Bioware is lying? 

I think you are trolling ME to be honest. You keep saying the same **** over and over but when I tell you if they allow Shepard to do someting NO ONE ELSE in the histroy of the game is able to do you might as well make Shepard turn into God.

Of course BW will lie in the story. More accurately, characters in the story will lie to advance the story to where the writers want it to go.

Sheppard has already done impossible things. He destroyed a relay in The Arrival. And, if Indoc Theory is wrong and the ending is real, he has saved the galaxy, something no one else has done.

So, by your logic, Sheppard is God.

[beyzend]

Primula Nightfall wrote...

MassEffected555:


I have two questions for you.

I apologize if happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this?

#1, it fits with what's happening on screen. If he/she takes control, becomes a reaper. If he/she synth., becomes a reaper. Hence the corresponding eye change. Or it doesn't really mean anything, just a design decision. Hmm. Not sure, no one just does thing without a purpose. Strange.

#2, that's your own interpretation. [/b] 

[Bane]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.

It says right in that quote you posted that indoctrination takes time as does the codex entry on indoctrination. It does not give the Reapers instant, complete control. No one is arguing that Shepard can resist indefinitely. If you think Shepard can become fully indoctrinated in the minutes or hours between Harbinger's attack in London and Shepard's final decision, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.

[UraharaSci]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.  


Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.

If only there was some subtle whisper throughout the game where you have to head towards Starchild, feeling bad when it is destroyed. If only...

[IronSabbath88]

Good catch on the fact that the clock doesn't budge when you're sent back before the Cerberus mission. I noticed this last night!

Even though you've clearly put more time into your playthrough as evidenced by when you choose to restart the "mission" to get to the Citadel, I had 26 hours or so in that one. After I finished, I noticed that when I went back, it was set back to around the 23 hour mark.. what gives?

[Rusty0918]

The eye change is also a compelling clue.

[-Zorph-]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.  


Rana Thanoptis[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">, an ] neuroscientist on [/color]Virmire[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been ]'s men.[/color]

No offense, but never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can.  In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind.  Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate.  Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind.  Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion.  Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in). 

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows.  Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices.  I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary.  Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

[UraharaSci]

Bane_v2 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.

It says right in that quote you posted that indoctrination takes time as does the codex entry on indoctrination. It does not give the Reapers instant, complete control. No one is arguing that Shepard can resist indefinitely. If you think Shepard can become fully indoctrinated in the minutes or hours between Harbinger's attack in London and Shepard's final decision, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.

You think it happened then. Try since ME2. Especially Arrival.

[beyzend]

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Yes, it's strange. But it doesn't say for certain that the indoc theory is true. They rushed the ending, at that point they're like let's put TIM there, then Anderson there, we need to have some animations guys!

But yeah, it's freaking strange. Just like the eye thing.

[Primula Nightfall]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

Hmm maybe the same reason Shep get shot in the shoulder by Maurader Shields but winds up holding his stomach? A mistake in coding?

Care to answer these questions? I hate posting them again but it seems you ignored them.


I apologize if you happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to (like breaking indoctrination)? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this? 

Modifié par Primula Nightfall, 19 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[jaze89]

nexworks wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

I don't think that means much. On the 360, the right trigger is Renegade (since it's the trigger finger), and the left trigger is Paragon. I think they swap it on the PC because you generally use your left button for shooting. (Basically, the button that shoots is the Renegade button). 

Hmmm. Are they still on the same sides though? Renegade on the left and paragon on the right regardless of RT or LT? I thought about this too but wasn't sure, most youtube videos are of the PC version.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I'm not trying to say that the Indoctrination 'Theory' is right I'm just adding some supporting details. After all it is just a 'theory' and it could be chalked up to bad writing, although, I don't get how the game could be so well-written except for the very last 5-10 minutes (I'd like emphasize that I do not like the ending one bit unless the Indoctrination Theory is correct). I'd also like to add that BioWare has made a spectacular trilogy and all the backlash just shows how much fans love and are invested in this series.

Modifié par jaze89, 19 mars 2012 - 09:00 .

[Mann42]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Good catch on the fact that the clock doesn't budge when you're sent back before the Cerberus mission. I noticed this last night!

Even though you've clearly put more time into your playthrough as evidenced by when you choose to restart the "mission" to get to the Citadel, I had 26 hours or so in that one. After I finished, I noticed that when I went back, it was set back to around the 23 hour mark.. what gives?

Obvious reasons
1) It's the last in the trilogy, so with no intention to allow import into another game, there's no reason to have a post-ending save.
2) It's the last place to finish side quests. 
3) When they release traditional DLC, like retaking Omega, your last save is in the right place to go do it, at the last place before you do the ending. 

Theorhetical Reasons
1) If I implemented an ending where you are basically indoctrinated because of 2 of the 3 decisions, and it drastically affects your final ending after I release an ending DLC, I'd want you to have a convenient way to experiencing every ending.
2) It would also allow me to make changes to events as early as Cerberus Headquarters to imply indoctrination or change the ending if I were forced to release DLC because of a vocal and passionate playerbase after a monumental outcry (something that never happens on BSN... oh wait).

[Jaze55]

UraharaSci wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rusty0918 wrote...

Not fully, MassEffected555. Harbinger IS ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate Shepard. He HAS NOT been fully indoctrinated yet.

Never in the histroy of the game has a Reaper ATTEMPTED to indoctrinate anyone, they just do it. I pasted this before but I will again.  


Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.

If only there was some subtle whisper throughout the game where you have to head towards Starchild, feeling bad when it is destroyed. If only...

I guess you weren't paying attention when you started the game and got the the Psycological Profile screen when you were making your toon. Maybe you should start a new game just to check that little part out. Then you wont be a ignorant of the facts. 

[Mann42]

jaze89 wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

I don't think that means much. On the 360, the right trigger is Renegade (since it's the trigger finger), and the left trigger is Paragon. I think they swap it on the PC because you generally use your left button for shooting. (Basically, the button that shoots is the Renegade button). 

Hmmm. Are they still on the same sides though? Renegade on the left and paragon on the right regardless of RT or LT? I thought about this too but wasn't sure, most youtube videos are of the PC version.

The Destroy choice is still on the right for the Xbox 360, so it lines up with the buttons. 

But if they developed it for PC controls first, then ported to console, then you might be right.

[Humakt83]

Harbinger one shots everyone else running at the beam but Shepard. In fact beam from Harbinger slowly closes on Shepard as if avoiding to harm Shepard permanently and just knock him/her unconscious.

Harbinger has obviously been interested in Shepard which is evident from ME 2 and comics. That is the reason why he does not simply kill Shepard or incinerate her body.

[-Zorph-]

Humakt83 wrote...

Harbinger one shots everyone else running at the beam but Shepard. In fact beam from Harbinger slowly closes on Shepard as if avoiding to harm Shepard permanently and just knock him/her unconscious.

Harbinger has obviously been interested in Shepard which is evident from ME 2 and comics. That is the reason why he does not simply kill Shepard or incinerate her body.

Also note he flies away conveniently as soon as Shepard gets up.

[Jaze55]

Primula Nightfall wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

Hmm maybe the same reason Shep get shot in the shoulder by Maurader Shields but winds up holding his stomach? A mistake in coding?

Care to answer these questions? I hate posting them again but it seems you ignored them.


I apologize if you happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to (like breaking indoctrination)? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this? 

I didn't see them but sure I will answer now.

1- Easy, someone already explained this. Using textures again because it's cheaper. Now, I dont know why they couldnt have used the red eyes you get from being renagade but whatever. I don't see a deeper meaing in it. Frankly I never understood why TIM has blue eyes, they should have been red IMO. 

2- Because according to game lore and mechanics it's not possible. I don't care about speculation. I can speculate that the grandpa and child were indoctrinated and all that story was BS can't I?