758 réponses à ce sujet

[Rob_K1]

MassEffected555 wrote...

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are lying in the game? You mean the codex that Bioware wrote about them, so Bioware is lying? 

I think you are trolling ME to be honest. You keep saying the same **** over and over but when I tell you if they allow Shepard to do someting NO ONE ELSE in the histroy of the game is able to do you might as well make Shepard turn into God.

Listen, characters in a game can lie or be wrong. It's basic writing 101. Something I should know about, with writing myself and the rules are the same no matter the medium. This does not mean I'm saying Rana has lied or is wrong however. I am simply saying it is possible that Rana wasn't correct. (And then we have the possiblity that BioWare could have also made a mistake or something here. However, I am not saying they have.)

Secondly, you are also repeating the same over and over.

Next, where does the codex enter the equation?

This is what the codex states on indoctrination, as I posted earlier:


‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.’

And no, I'm not commenting on the whole 'codex is wrong/right' thing. I'm simply showing what the ME 3 codex states on indoctrination.

And you honestly think Shepard getting shot in his shoulder, yet holding his stomach is indicative of a coding error...?

Edit: Oh and one other thing, while it is not my style personally, it is typical of writers to enable their heroes to do the impossible.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 09:05 .

[-Zorph-]

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

[jaze89]

nexworks wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

I don't think that means much. On the 360, the right trigger is Renegade (since it's the trigger finger), and the left trigger is Paragon. I think they swap it on the PC because you generally use your left button for shooting. (Basically, the button that shoots is the Renegade button). 

Hmmm. Are they still on the same sides though? Renegade on the left and paragon on the right regardless of RT or LT? I thought about this too but wasn't sure, most youtube videos are of the PC version.

The Destroy choice is still on the right for the Xbox 360, so it lines up with the buttons. 

But if they developed it for PC controls first, then ported to console, then you might be right.

I'm not sure if I misread but to clarify I mean are renegade (not the ending destroy option) interrupts located on the lower left side of the screen or are they on the lower right for the XBOX 360 and vice versa for paragon?

[Jaze55]

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are lying in the game? You mean the codex that Bioware wrote about them, so Bioware is lying? 

I think you are trolling ME to be honest. You keep saying the same **** over and over but when I tell you if they allow Shepard to do someting NO ONE ELSE in the histroy of the game is able to do you might as well make Shepard turn into God.

Listen, characters in a game can lie or be wrong. It's basic writing 101. Something I should know about, with writing myself and the rules are the same no matter the medium. This does not mean I'm saying Rana has lied or is wrong however. I am simply saying it is possible that Rana wasn't correct. (And then we have the possiblity that BioWare could have also made a mistake or something here. However, I am not saying they have.)

Secondly, you are also repeating the same over and over.

Next, where does the codex enter the equation?

This is what the codex states on indoctrination, as I posted earlier:


‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.’

And no, I'm not commenting on the whole 'codex is wrong/right' thing. I'm simply showing what the ME 3 codex states on indoctrination.

And you honestly think Shepard getting shot in his shoulder, yet holding his stomach is indicative of a coding error...?

Edit: Oh and one other thing, while it is not my style personally, it is typical of writers to enable their heroes to do the impossible.

I am repeating the same things over and over because that's all that needs to be said.

Also, if you are going to say a writer an enable heroes to do the impossible then whats your beef with the impossible ending we got?

[Jaze55]

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[Rusty0918]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Primula Nightfall wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

Hmm maybe the same reason Shep get shot in the shoulder by Maurader Shields but winds up holding his stomach? A mistake in coding?

Care to answer these questions? I hate posting them again but it seems you ignored them.


I apologize if you happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to (like breaking indoctrination)? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this? 

I didn't see them but sure I will answer now.

1- Easy, someone already explained this. Using textures again because it's cheaper. Now, I dont know why they couldnt have used the red eyes you get from being renagade but whatever. I don't see a deeper meaing in it. Frankly I never understood why TIM has blue eyes, they should have been red IMO. 

2- Because according to game lore and mechanics it's not possible. I don't care about speculation. I can speculate that the grandpa and child were indoctrinated and all that story was BS can't I?

How the heck do you know there's only one method Reapers use to indoctrinate. They've been around for countless millenia. They probably use a load of methods to do it, such as in that dream sequence. It's not like the codex is omniscient.

The thing with the gun, the eyes, the reversal in the decisions (Anderson being made out as a Renegade when you know he's Paragaon, TIM being made out as Paragon when you know he's Renegade). He's trying to twist you. And also that oily stuff you see on the screen during the time on the Citadel, that's what that Rachi queen mentioned as a hint of indoctrination. And then of course Shepard in the rubble if you choose Destroy with high enough EMS. The eyes if you choose Control or Synthesis...it all adds up. More so than you think. And I've said it before: Indoctrination is one of the key ominous tactics of the Reapers. Why would it make sense for Shepard NOT to go through this?

[-Zorph-]

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

Clearly you didn't read what I even said.

I said that the indoctrination process was interrupted because he ultimately prevailed by choosing DESTROY. He didn't beat indoctrination, he killed off that with which was attempting to indoctrinate him before it finished the indoctrination process. As in, it never got as far as Saren/Berezi/TIM . I didn't say he 'beat it' like it's some kind of Chess game. 

Ok then?

[Cucobr]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

As I said in another post, the codex is nto the final say. It represents what we know, not what is true. The writers can bend those "rules" to present further info.

This is not to say that IT is true. I think it is the most logical theory and fixes a lot of the plot holes, but you may be right. But you should at least acknowledge that there is enough wiggle room for the writers to exploit to support the theory that Sheppard is not indoc'd, they try to do it, it can fail, he might be special enough to reisist, or he may be able to go on after to defeat the Reapers.

Remember that BW has stated that they want a bittersweet ending. Could that ending be that he is indoc'd but can resist long enough to destroy the Reapers, then he blows his brains out?

I don't know, but I could write it so it seemed plausible.

If you have to bend or disregard the lore to get the theory to work, you know its not correct.

The sole reason the codex exists is so Bioware can impart exposition to the player without having long, drawn-out conversations. No-one wants to listen to a five minute conversation about the exact details of indoctrination, so they put it in the codex instead so players who want to know about it can read about it.

And if characters like Saren or TIM can't stop indoctrination, then why should Shepard be able to?

Because he is Sheppard. Sheppard is the hero. He bends the rules by definition. He wins against impossible odds and survives suicide missions.

What is not to get? Look at the hero in every movies you have ever seen? Do they not do impossible things, things no one has ever done? That's why they are the hero.

Besides, many characters have resisted indoc, at least for a time. It is not impossible. Perhaps Sheppard is not better at resistance than Saren, he may just have nto been exposed as long. We don't know.

My point is that it is plausable that he can resist, due to many unkknows such as Sheps levle of willpower, exposure time, etc.

And here is the 4th time I will say this to you

If you allow Shepard to do something no one else in the history of the game then that elevates Shepard to a status above and beyond anything essentially making him super human. 

Shepard isnt a super hero.

But his willpower is the most powerfull thing that he has.

it's pretty clear if you play the games.

[Rob_K1]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! People are lying in the game? You mean the codex that Bioware wrote about them, so Bioware is lying? 

I think you are trolling ME to be honest. You keep saying the same **** over and over but when I tell you if they allow Shepard to do someting NO ONE ELSE in the histroy of the game is able to do you might as well make Shepard turn into God.

Listen, characters in a game can lie or be wrong. It's basic writing 101. Something I should know about, with writing myself and the rules are the same no matter the medium. This does not mean I'm saying Rana has lied or is wrong however. I am simply saying it is possible that Rana wasn't correct. (And then we have the possiblity that BioWare could have also made a mistake or something here. However, I am not saying they have.)

Secondly, you are also repeating the same over and over.

Next, where does the codex enter the equation?

This is what the codex states on indoctrination, as I posted earlier:


‘Reaper “indoctrination” is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, “reprogramming” the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper’s resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of “being watched” and hallucinations of “ghostly” presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim’s body to amplify its signals, manifesting as “alien” voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper’s “suggestions” can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.’

And no, I'm not commenting on the whole 'codex is wrong/right' thing. I'm simply showing what the ME 3 codex states on indoctrination.

And you honestly think Shepard getting shot in his shoulder, yet holding his stomach is indicative of a coding error...?

Edit: Oh and one other thing, while it is not my style personally, it is typical of writers to enable their heroes to do the impossible.

I am repeating the same things over and over because that's all that needs to be said.

Also, if you are going to say a writer an enable heroes to do the impossible then whats your beef with the impossible ending we got?

Nowhere have I stated I have a problem with the ending. In fact, my words earlier in the thread were that I wasn't as happy as I could be, but I accepted them as they are and wouldn't kick up a fuss.

I also said that I'm not someone that needs to grasp at straws. It's simply that it makes more sense to not take the ending at face value. And looking at the indoctrination theory, that is what makes the most sense. It's either that or Shepard isn't being indoctrinated and is simply trying to find the will to continue. (Which would possibly be supported by Shepard seeing himself burn with the child in the final dream sequence. I don't really buy it that it's about finding the will to fight either, by the way, hence buying into the indoctrination theory.) regardless of what's right or wrong, it's clear to me the endings shouldn't be taken at face value.

And no, I am not getting into this debate again with you. I've said more than I intended to with replying here. Just know that it's possible for characters to lie or be wrong.

Also, I prefer the 'realistic' route with writing, rather than having 'heroes' do the impossible. Hell, I don't really look upon anything I write as having 'heroes'. So, it should show you how I approach writing.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 09:18 .

[Primula Nightfall]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Primula Nightfall wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

jaze89 wrote...

I just wanted to add some support to the Indoctrination Theory. Whenever you have renegade or paragon interrupts, renegade (red) is always on the left side and left-click on the mouse and paragon (blue) is always on the right side and right-click on the mouse. In the end scene the renegade (red) is on the right side and paragon (blue) is on the left. Why does it get flipped around in the ending? Why does Anderson - who's always been considered a good person - taking the renegade (red) option? Why does The Illusive Man - who's always been considered immoral and bad - taking the paragon (blue) option?

Good catch, I did not notice that one.

Another clue from BW that things are not what they seem during the ending.

Hmm maybe the same reason Shep get shot in the shoulder by Maurader Shields but winds up holding his stomach? A mistake in coding?

Care to answer these questions? I hate posting them again but it seems you ignored them.


I apologize if you happen to have answered them before. If this is the case, please disregard the questions and I'll go back and look for the answers.

1) How do you explain Shepard's eyes in the end? If you choose blue or green choices, they become similar to TIM and Saren's. Those two are clearly Indoc, and giving Shepard their very peculiar eyes cannot be random. It must have a meaning. Don't you think?

2) In the end, after the credits, it's clearly stated that Shepard is considered a "Legend". We have a man who tells a child about "the Shepard", as if it was the hero of a long-lost epic tale. Why cannot such a hero do stuff that no one else managed to (like breaking indoctrination)? He's a legend after all, or AT LEAST he's being remembered as such. And as far as I get it, the whole saga of ME was like a big tale told by a man to a child. How can you disprove this? 

I didn't see them but sure I will answer now.

1- Easy, someone already explained this. Using textures again because it's cheaper. Now, I dont know why they couldnt have used the red eyes you get from being renagade but whatever. I don't see a deeper meaing in it. Frankly I never understood why TIM has blue eyes, they should have been red IMO. 

2- Because according to game lore and mechanics it's not possible. I don't care about speculation. I can speculate that the grandpa and child were indoctrinated and all that story was BS can't I?

1 - So you're telling me that this was just random? They simply had to change Shepard eyes, and they RANDOMLY decided to re-use the eyes of a well known, CLEARLY indoctrinate main antagonist? And only for TWO endings? ...come on, you can't really believe this. 

2 - To me, it seems like the "after credits" part is quite detached from the game world. Seems to me that everything was just a tale, that what we saw of Shepard was what an old man told a kid. EVEN the rules. Heroes are supposed to break the rules. You want to believe in space magic then? By all means, do so. That's also plausible, of course. Unfortunately all other evidence suggest indoctrination.

Modifié par Primula Nightfall, 19 mars 2012 - 09:19 .

[jaze89]

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...[/quote]

[/quote] It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[/quote]

I'd argue that just because something has never been done before doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Shepard has had a history of beating the odds. From the quote of the Asari scientist she says it can't be ignored but how can she be certain? All evidence she has says it can't but that doesn't 100% prove that it is impossible. She could also be saying that once indoctrinated you cannot break free and here Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated but is in the 'process' of being indoctrinated.

EDIT: Sorry for the screwed up quote format, new to this forum.

Modifié par jaze89, 19 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[PSUHammer]

Regardless of the rage of some of you (which I don't understand) I find the indoctrination theory fascinating and fitting for what I would have expected out of an ending. That doesn't excuse the abruptness of it or even explaining that aspect of it in the game, but I still get it.

I like to keep an open mind and, so far, this the best explanation to me for what we got at the end.

Now...for a proper epilogue to tie it all together!

[Rob_K1]

[quote]jaze89 wrote...

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...[/quote]

[/quote] It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[/quote]

I'd
argue that just because something has never been done before doesn't
mean that it cannot be done. Shepard has had a history of beating the
odds. From the quote of the Asari scientist she says it can't be ignored
but how can she be certain? All evidence she has says it can't but that
doesn't 100% prove that it is impossible. She could also be saying that
once indoctrinated you cannot break free and here Shepard hasn't been
indoctrinated but is in the 'process' of being indoctrinated.

EDIT: Sorry for the screwed up quote format, new to this forum.[/quote]

My reply at Jace below, as the quotes don't want to work:

The formatting screwing up tends to happen when using quotes or editing. It's annoying to say the least, so I can relate.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 19 mars 2012 - 09:21 .

[Rusty0918]

[quote]jaze89 wrote...



[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...[/quote]

 It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[/quote]

I'd argue that just because something has never been done before doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Shepard has had a history of beating the odds. From the quote of the Asari scientist she says it can't be ignored but how can she be certain? All evidence she has says it can't but that doesn't 100% prove that it is impossible. She could also be saying that once indoctrinated you cannot break free and here Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated but is in the 'process' of being indoctrinated.

EDIT: Sorry for the screwed up quote format, new to this forum.[/quote]

[/quote]

That's what I was suggesting. Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated; the Reapers are trying to break through his mental barriers in the supposed dream sequence. They're twisting the decisions.

Modifié par Rusty0918, 19 mars 2012 - 09:21 .

[Jaze55]

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

Clearly you didn't read what I even said.

I said that the indoctrination process was interrupted because he ultimately prevailed by choosing DESTROY. He didn't beat indoctrination, he killed off that with which was attempting to indoctrinate him before it finished the indoctrination process. As in, it never got as far as Saren/Berezi/TIM . I didn't say he 'beat it' like it's some kind of Chess game. 

Ok then?

ANd you clearly didnt read what I said and showed proof of

They do not TRY to indocrinate, they do it. They never fail, they alwasy succeed. Period end of story, according to game lore and mechanics.

:happy::happy::wizard::happy::happy:

[Jaze55]

[quote]Rusty0918 wrote...

[quote]jaze89 wrote...


[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...[/quote]

[/quote] It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[/quote]

I'd argue that just because something has never been done before doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Shepard has had a history of beating the odds. From the quote of the Asari scientist she says it can't be ignored but how can she be certain? All evidence she has says it can't but that doesn't 100% prove that it is impossible. She could also be saying that once indoctrinated you cannot break free and here Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated but is in the 'process' of being indoctrinated.

EDIT: Sorry for the screwed up quote format, new to this forum.[/quote]

That's what I was suggesting. Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated; the Reapers are trying to break through his mental barriers in the supposed dream sequence. They're twisting the decisions.[/quote]

Ok then so space magic is OK. I know its never been done but why not? If we allow Shep to do the impossible at the end then it allows everything impossible to be possible.

SO space magic IS possible

[Primula Nightfall]

Honestly, you are basing your counter argument on something BioWare themselves invented.

It's their story. They can do whatever they want with it. You can't rule something out because "The rules say it's impossible". It's a game. They're not scientific rules. They can change them on the fly as they see fit.
Of course this does not mean the IT is true. It only meant's it's plausible, while you say it's completely impossible.

[palacios]

nexworks wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 My thinking at this point? Of course it's indoctrination. Nothing else makes sense, logically. What StarChild says runs completely counter to everything else you know about the Mass Effect universe. Either the writers lost their minds in the last 5 minutes or it's indoctrination.

However, and this is the point where I sort of fall into post-ME3 related sadness, I almost think the writers got too clever for their own good. Because 1) everything depends on what happens next. If Shepard breaks free with destroy, keeps fighting, and so on, then it's like we got part of the game, but not all of it. the DLC could go on to be amazing, but it does sting that we couldn't get the whole game all at once.

and 2) for the folks who chose the other endings, they basically 'chose poorly' to quote indiana jones and the search for the holy grail. they burn up and die and there's going to be quite a bit of frustration over that. starchild argues well and he took in a lot of gamers - i think there's going to be some serious anger if it turns out destroy is the only way out, because people will feel tricked.

Indoctrination is the only logical answer, I find. But the emotional response will be anything but logical.

Do you notice how after you beat the game, it kicks you back out to your last save before you went on the Cerberus Headquarters mission? It basically resets you to right before the ending missions, even pushing your play clock back in time. Nowhere does it lock you into your decision. 

I have a feeling its because, when and if they release Epilogue DLC, they want you to be able to go back and experience what happened regardless of whether you pick to be Indoctrinated or not. I have a feeling that you'll have an ending to play regardless of choice, but the results will be drastically different (especially if they're saving the end for its own DLC). Since there's no save after final completion, it lets you re-do your Shepard's ending if you don't like what you picked the first time.

Adding to the support of the indoctrination theory. It seems pretty clear to me that the ending was split into 2 parts. After seeing that Shepard is back on Earth after the destroy choice, you can conclude that you were passed out for the last 15 mins of the game and that nothing really happened. The Reapers are still invading Earth, your crew, Anderson, TIM, and everyone else that might have died are still alive. But since nothing has been confirmed, you can only hope. Everything makes sense. And the fact that you get pushed back to before the cerberus mission after you complete it, just says you're not locked in to anything which means that we're not done. 

[PSUHammer]

palacios wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Do you notice how after you beat the game, it kicks you back out to your last save before you went on the Cerberus Headquarters mission? It basically resets you to right before the ending missions, even pushing your play clock back in time. Nowhere does it lock you into your decision. 

I have a feeling its because, when and if they release Epilogue DLC, they want you to be able to go back and experience what happened regardless of whether you pick to be Indoctrinated or not. I have a feeling that you'll have an ending to play regardless of choice, but the results will be drastically different (especially if they're saving the end for its own DLC). Since there's no save after final completion, it lets you re-do your Shepard's ending if you don't like what you picked the first time.

Adding to the support of the indoctrination theory. It seems pretty clear to me that the ending was split into 2 parts. After seeing that Shepard is back on Earth after the destroy choice, you can conclude that you were passed out for the last 15 mins of the game and that nothing really happened. The Reapers are still invading Earth, your crew, Anderson, TIM, and everyone else that might have died are still alive. But since nothing has been confirmed, you can only hope. Everything makes sense. And the fact that you get pushed back to before the cerberus mission after you complete it, just says you're not locked in to anything which means that we're not done. 

I DID notice that and wondered why it went back to before the Cerberus base?  One of the things that started me thinking strange things were afoot at the Circle K.

[scrapmetals]

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

Clearly you didn't read what I even said.

I said that the indoctrination process was interrupted because he ultimately prevailed by choosing DESTROY. He didn't beat indoctrination, he killed off that with which was attempting to indoctrinate him before it finished the indoctrination process. As in, it never got as far as Saren/Berezi/TIM . I didn't say he 'beat it' like it's some kind of Chess game. 

Ok then?

ANd you clearly didnt read what I said and showed proof of

They do not TRY to indocrinate, they do it. They never fail, they alwasy succeed. Period end of story, according to game lore and mechanics.

:happy::happy::wizard::happy::happy:

And Mass Relays always entirely destroy (at least part) of the star system they're in based on Arrival.

Except they didn't do that in the end.

WAIT....

[Rusty0918]

[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...

[quote]Rusty0918 wrote...

[quote]jaze89 wrote...



[quote]MassEffected555 wrote...[/quote]

[/quote] It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

[/quote]

I'd argue that just because something has never been done before doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Shepard has had a history of beating the odds. From the quote of the Asari scientist she says it can't be ignored but how can she be certain? All evidence she has says it can't but that doesn't 100% prove that it is impossible. She could also be saying that once indoctrinated you cannot break free and here Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated but is in the 'process' of being indoctrinated.

EDIT: Sorry for the screwed up quote format, new to this forum.[/quote]

That's what I was suggesting. Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated; the Reapers are trying to break through his mental barriers in the supposed dream sequence. They're twisting the decisions.[/quote]

Ok then so space magic is OK. I know its never been done but why not? If we allow Shep to do the impossible at the end then it allows everything impossible to be possible.

SO space magic IS possible


[/quote]

IT IS NOT SPACE MAGIC!!! Ugh...keep in mind that Shepard isn't impervious, strong as he is mentally regarding the indoctrination process. And I don't like your "they don't try, they do" stuff. Are you the expert here? I mean, many people were tempted by that One Ring in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, even Frodo at the end had that struggle at Mount Doom. How do you know it can't be broken? Really? Just because someone says it can't be done doesn't mean it can't be done. Assuming you play your cards right in ME2, Shepard survives what many call a "Suicide Mission." Heck, Samara in ME2 mentions that Shepard has a reupation for accomplishing the impossible. Resisting indoctrination? Why shouldn't it be any different?

[Jaze55]

scrapmetals wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

Clearly you didn't read what I even said.

I said that the indoctrination process was interrupted because he ultimately prevailed by choosing DESTROY. He didn't beat indoctrination, he killed off that with which was attempting to indoctrinate him before it finished the indoctrination process. As in, it never got as far as Saren/Berezi/TIM . I didn't say he 'beat it' like it's some kind of Chess game. 

Ok then?

ANd you clearly didnt read what I said and showed proof of

They do not TRY to indocrinate, they do it. They never fail, they alwasy succeed. Period end of story, according to game lore and mechanics.

:happy::happy::wizard::happy::happy:

And Mass Relays always entirely destroy (at least part) of the star system they're in based on Arrival.

Except they didn't do that in the end.

WAIT....

Yeah when a METEOR hits them... and thats exactly what happened at the end of ME3


WAIT......

[-Zorph-]

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

MassEffected555 wrote...

-Zorph- wrote...

Repost this because it seemed to have been missed.

Never in history has one man created the plans to destroying a Reaper, Saren, and all of Saren's Geth subjects. (ME1). Never before has a man gone through the Omega-4 Relay, to destroy the Collector Base and return, alive. (ME2).

You're implying Shep can't do the impossible, which he has already proven he can. In my opinion the ending sequence is all in Shep's head and everything is symbolic representation of the struggle for control of his mind. Anderson the rational Paragon anti-reaper, and TIM as maybe we should 'give in' kind of inner-debate. Finally I believe the child represents himself as a "ghostly figure" (as mentioned in the Indoc codex entry in the game)
to bring a sense of emotional attachment to Shepard, further gaining leverage over his mind. Choosing Destroy, you've resisted the attempt of indoctrination and in doing so destroy Harbinger(The Star Child)'s influence on your mind and the indoctrination never fully completes it's grasp on Shepard.

This is all speculation and my personal opinion. Even if this isn't added or becomes reality, this is how I interpret the ending.

One final note about the Star Child, the earlier nightmares of the child and other casual cues such as Kaidan mentioning a hum in ME1 to James mentioning a hum in ME3 (which the Rachni queen mentioned early, 'sour notes', a hum. Just like the people on the derelict Reaper in ME2 heard noises before their minds caved in).

Perhaps Shepard has been slowly controlled throughout ME2/3 because of him being made up of part Reaper tech, who knows. Maybe it's a unique and isolated incident of indoctrination different than anything before because the tech inside of Shepard installed by Cerberus is slowly manipulating and controlling his body and mind, not the aggressive and unstoppable force that is generally the case with indoctrination, it's slowly 'swinging him over', and the start child is the final attempt to influence his choices. I mean how else would Lazarus become a possibility, even the Doctor claimed it was impossible in those vids on Sanctuary. Then all of a sudden, it became possible? Even though Cerberus has been known to use Reaper tech during this period of time (ala Edi). Hmm.

All that being said, this is all my opinion and my observations. You don't have to believe me, but it's how I interpret it all.

It's explained how he does all that. He doesn't just magically walk through the Omega 4 relay does he?

Nope, but he is magically allowed to be the only one in the history of the game to beat indoctrination.

OK then. 

Clearly you didn't read what I even said.

I said that the indoctrination process was interrupted because he ultimately prevailed by choosing DESTROY. He didn't beat indoctrination, he killed off that with which was attempting to indoctrinate him before it finished the indoctrination process. As in, it never got as far as Saren/Berezi/TIM . I didn't say he 'beat it' like it's some kind of Chess game. 

Ok then?

ANd you clearly didnt read what I said and showed proof of

They do not TRY to indocrinate, they do it. They never fail, they alwasy succeed. Period end of story, according to game lore and mechanics.

:happy::happy::wizard::happy::happy:

Again sir, your failure of reading comprehension will be your undoing. I personally never said or believe that Shepard is indoctrinated. I said the scene is a symbolic representation of the fight for control of his mind. I never said he was indoctrinated by the Reapers. I mean come on.

[scrapmetals]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Yeah when a METEOR hits them... and thats exactly what happened at the end of ME3


WAIT......

Where do you get your evidence that only meteors hitting Mass Relays cause the explosion that wipes out star systems?

Forgetting the Mass Relays, sure, let's say Shepard is fully indoctrinated. Didn't change the fact that you can still choose red flavor/red color/Charmander.

Saren, Benezia, TIM were all fully indoctrinated and they still had moments of resistance. Yes, they were short moments. It only took a short moment to crawl your ass to Charmander and shoot it.

[scrapmetals]

I hit edit, god dammit, not quote.

Modifié par scrapmetals, 19 mars 2012 - 09:32 .